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Complaints about unregulated, seemingly spurious pretenses of revelation have little bearing on whether the real thing is a good thing. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Suppose I went and found some examples - even on this forum - of unregulated exegesis, essentially blatant eisegesis. Would that cause you to throw out the Bible?And as for the devotees of "Direct Revelation," the post by Paul James was correct to point out that these "revelations" do not reveal anything that is essential for mankind to find salvation. Rather, they typically deal with personal matters such as God bringing the guy a girl to love, whether the person will get the job he wants, how to make the person's ministry more God-pleasing, or else they reassert something that is in the Bible already. In addition, they are not given to all mankind, which is a very fundamental departure from the purposes of Holy Scripture. They might better be called "Private Revelation" than "Direct Revelation."
Ok then it seems we've been talking past each other in this debate. Apparently we're on the same side? Because if you regard visions, dreams, and voices from the Lord to be both normal and normative guidance by the Holy Spirit, seems to me you are clearly a proponent of Direct Revelation.These events are not "direct revelation" but specific guidance to to specific actions as required by the Holy Spirit.
You are putting words in my mouth. I adduced 1Cor 14:1 because you seemed so disparaging of prophecy, basically classifying it as something not to be trusted, and thereby relegating it to low-priority at best. Yet a literal reading of that verse seems to put it on the very top rung of the ladder alongside love, and thus as top priority. And you're right when you go on to insinuate that even a 10 year old could grasp the basic import of the verse.You are saying that prophecy is to take priority over the literal text of Scripture and you are using this verse to support it.
Really? Exegesis is the test, huh? Funny Paul never mentions exegesis as the test. Ok let's consider an example. Prophecy is for encouragment, right? Picture this one:What Paul says later on (which you may be ignoring) is that when one prophesies, the others judge the prophecy. This means that they don't take the prophecy at face value even if the guy says, "Thus says the Lord". They judge the prophecy to determine whether the Lord is really saying it or not. The way they would judge it would be on the basis of the written Scripture, and, like the Bereans, they would have searched the Scriptures to see whether the prophecy is consistent with with Scripture or not.
(Sigh). For the millionth time, such examples of unregulated prophecy are totally irrelevant to this debate. Who cares if someone claims to be 100% certain. Were YOU 100% certain? And if you were, end of story, because the maxim dictates that you honor that certainty, as a moral obligation:Just because the guy says, "I am really certain that this is coming from the Lord", which would ring alarm bells in me because if the prophecy is from the Lord, then he wouldn't have to say it is from the Lord, because those who have comprehensive Scripture knowledge would know immediately whether it was true or false.
A friend of mine told me about a meeting where a large guy got up and gave a loud prophecy (as if he had a built in amplifier) in KJV language, including "Thus says the Lord", and the leader, who had a lifetime experience and knowledge of the Scriptures told the people, "Well, we can safely ignore that one!"
Something to consider is that when Christ teaches us directly, there is one Truth. Until one has had this ongoing experience, their ability to discern The Word is greatly limited.Ditto. This is not a real rebuttal. And much of it doesn't make sense, for example:
"There is NO ILLUMINATION outside of Gods' WORD".
No illumination outside of the Bible? That doesn't make sense, right? Illumination existed before the Bible - otherwise Moses could not have written the OT. If there is no illumination outside the Bible, then all you have is biblical scholarship to help you understand it, right? Apparently you think that God is not going to shine His Light into your mind since, the text itself, as you say, is the only Light given to us? God is not going to help you understand that text? He provides nothing but the text? You're not being clear. Notice how Paul wasn't satisfied with text-alone:
For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe (Ephesians 1).
You see that word 'revelation'? You'll see it generally means "Direct Revelation" as used throughout the NT. Paul could have said, "Just go to seminary and study the text alone." But he realized that wasn't enough, so he prayed for Direct Revelation. If that's what Paul did, what do you suppose we should be doing?
New Testament prophecy is not direct revelation from God. If it was, God is giving new Scripture which should be added to what is already there, because when God speaks directly, He is speaking Scripture.Disparaging prophecy, you wrote:
Later, when I pressed you to tell me what a literal reading of 1Cor 14 entails, you conceded of prophecy:
Then I accused you of backpedaling. You responded:
No, actually debate is always a matter of trying to shoot down the opposing position. This strengthens one's own position.
Anyway, as I've pointed out a couple of times now, you have some legitimate complaints, not about prophecy, but about unregulated prophecy. That is all.
I don't have a problem with that because it involves a non-Christian who didn't believe the Bible having a personal encounter with Jesus which led to his conversion to Christ.How about when they reveal Jesus Himself? Is He not Salvation?
You see, you are making assumptions about what I believe concerning prophecy without knowing my background, training, and experience in the prophetic.I missed this post.
You are putting words in my mouth. I adduced 1Cor 14:1 because you seemed so disparaging of prophecy, basically classifying it as something not to be trusted, and thereby relegating it to low-priority at best. Yet a literal reading of that verse seems to put it on the very top rung of the ladder alongside love, and thus as top priority. And you're right when you go on to insinuate that even a 10 year old could grasp the basic import of the verse.
I'm sorry your list of priorities is arranged in a different order than Paul's.
I had to go to bed as well. Right now I'm enjoying a rich cup of Black Elixir.I don't agree with you on this, but I can't be bothered to push the issue any further in this direction. It is getting late in the day and my blue energy pill is wearing off.
FYI (and off-topic), that's the exact opposite of how things work in the Catholic Church. The Church recognizes that private revelation can exist, but never says that a specific alleged private revelation is genuine and never says that it is binding on anyone other than the person it was given to (and, even then, only if it actually is from God). The farthest it goes is to say that a private revelation is worthy of belief, that it appears to not conflict with legitimate Christian doctrine and a faithful Christian can believe it or not.I also don't concur with the pope sitting in the chair of Peter getting direct revelation that becomes part of tradition that effectively adds to Scripture.
I had to go to bed as well. Right now I'm enjoying a rich cup of Black Elixir.
One way you could convince me of my error would be to determine the canon from scratch using nothing but the documents themselves, without reference to the list that you already know.
You have so much catching up to do that you have absolutely no idea what I've been saying. I suggest you study my posts more carefully.Well I am a looong way behind and have a lot of catching up to do, but to me (with all due respect) this is a silly argument as it tries to come from the standpoint that God is not in control of his Word...
Rather, there is a flaw in your reasoning because it is based on the canon which was determined by the Catholic Church, whose authority you deny.
Like it or not, you and I both believe the New Testament documents were written by the Apostles because the Catholic Church said that they were. That's the ONLY reason we believe it, and that completely cuts the idea of Sola Scriptura off at the root.
Sola Scriptura CANNOT be true, because without the witness of the Catholic Church we have no way to identify which documents are Apostolic and which ones are not.
Why I reject sola scriptura
You have so much catching up to do that you have absolutely no idea what I've been saying. I suggest you study my posts more carefully.
I don't have a problem with that because it involves a non-Christian who didn't believe the Bible having a personal encounter with Jesus which led to his conversion to Christ.
But the problem with that is, there is a prohibition to adding to what has already been written in the Bible (Proverbs 30:6-7).
And His word says >
"the Spirit is truth" in 1 John 5:6.
And Jesus says He is "the light of the world." (John 8:12)
And Jesus Himself says we in Jesus are "the light of the world" (in Matthew 5:14).
The Word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword.
God’s Word is power.
Matt.4
- [4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God
True Paul very scary! You can see why people are trying to destroy the Word. Then there is no way to test the Spirits to see if they are of God or not.Oh! I didn't know that the "direct revelation" as part of Catholic doctrine.
So that means when the Pope gets into the Chair of Peter and gets a "direct revelation" for the Church, he gets it directly for Jesus as well? What if the Pope's "direct revelation" contrasts with our friend's "direct revelation", what then? Bears thinking about...
But what I do oppose, is people like Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn purporting to get direct revelation that is obviously contrary to God's true plans and purposes
That's right, and those traditions came from "direct revelation" while the Pope was in the Chair of Peter. This is because Catholics believe that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ and has direct communication with Christ that the ordinary Church member has not, so in their view, Jesus has to speak to the people through the Pope while he is in the Chair of Peter.
I am not knocking the Catholic Church here - just reflecting my own opinion about it. It is the same thing when a Charismatic prosperity preacher says that he is preaching from "direct revelation" from the Holy Spirit to the people and because the people trust the preacher, they accept it. It is also the same when a "prophet" gets up and says, "This is what the Lord is saying to me ("direct revelation"). It is very difficult for many to refute what is being said in such a prophecy, because it would seem they are opposing the Holy Spirit, when in reality, it is the "prophet's" own spirit speaking and he is usurping the authority of God to cause people to believe the prophecy.
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