Why Sola Scriptura isn't God's plan

file13 · Mar 8, 2011

ortho_cat said:
Please explain how tradition is required for proper application of sola scriptura, and what you mean by 'tradition' here?

When it comes to doctrine and practice, the church should examine history to see how it has responded in the past to said doctrine or practice, or at least something similar. However, Scripture will always trump tradition if tradition is found to be in conflict with Scripture or if it requires extra-biblical practices (like anathema for NOT venerating icons as in the 7th council) as binding one's conscience in a matter where Scripture is silent or ambiguous.

file13 · Mar 8, 2011

Anoetos said:
Just so...excellent work.

This is central; the Catholic/Orthodox epistemology breaks down at precisely this point. All they have done is add an authority to which they submit and which they must "interpret for themselves".

I can't give this comment enough amens. Protestants simply cut out the middle man if the middle man goes beyond it's authority.

file13 · Mar 8, 2011

Anoetos said:
I for one absolutely repudiate the idea and counter with the claim that all these things are taught in Scripture diligently read and that the "Church" lost sight of it and desperately required reformation.

This.

Anoetos said:
As has been pointed out, the ECF's are consistent in their appeal to Scripture as the final authority and never present any authority as equal to it. This is Sola Scriptura by default, as it were. Similarly the earliest understanding was, clearly that men are elect, called, justified and finally saved, solely by the finished work of Christ working solely by Grace and solely by the agency of faith, itself gracious. We know this because it is what the Bible teaches.

Yup. Of course, since "Tradition" accrues, if we find that Christ's body has given these traditions more authority than they should be given, we are justified in returning to the original practice of the church where we appeal to Scripture as the final authority and cut out the middle man that has grown into a bloated beast these past two thousand years.

Anoetos said:
That the "Church" lost sight of it, strayed from it, betrayed it as a single truth of salvation uniquely revealed and bestowed, is sin and a result of sin, as it always was with Israel when they whored after other gods. That God permitted us to languish under so much mummery and foolishness until the Reformation is a matter for His own purpose and will.

Dark_Lite · Mar 8, 2011

SummaScriptura said:
Its Catholics who deny the Universal Church by claiming to be it. Roman Catholic is an oxymoron after all.

That doesn't make sense. Roman refers to either the Roman/Latin rite, one of the 23 particular churches of the Catholic Church, or it refers to the fact that the parish/person/entity being referred to is in communion with the Pope in Rome.

file13 · Mar 8, 2011

ortho_cat said:
Yet, what distinguishes one denomination from another is not the Bible itself, but the interpretation of it (or perhaps less often, the translation). You must realize then that the interpretation is itself the active force that guides and shapes their very belief system and how it is practiced, not the scripture itself. Therefore, it is this then, the interpretation, which is the ultimate guiding authority for the protestant. And this interpretation is, as I have said before, nothing more than one of many varying traditions which are subject to change depending upon the given context of its application.

So you don't mind if I steal your car?

simonthezealot · Mar 8, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
Which is exactly what David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc. did, so people could blindly trust someone like him.

Jim Jones was an outspoken atheist and David Koresh thought he was the Messiah...Nothing to do with individually interpreting scripture...
C'mon you have to have some clue how Satan and his minions work.

SummaScriptura · Mar 8, 2011

simonthezealot said:
Jim Jones was an outspoken atheist and David Koresh thought he was the Messiah...Nothing to do with individually interpreting scripture...
C'mon you have to have some clue how Satan and his minions work.

I live in S.F. I was here when Jimmy was in his hey-day. I ran a Christian bookstore and would get his bulk mail begging for donations for the great work he was doing. It sent shivers up one's spine to watch this guy on community access TV. One time I specifically remember him taking a Bible, throwing it to the ground, standing on it and shouting angrily, "some of you are paying too much attention to this [the Bible]! YOU NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" The crowd lit up like Pentycostal holy-rollers. Truly scary.

Was someone trying to make a point related to Jimmy Jones and SS?

ivebeenshown · Mar 8, 2011

file13 said:
(like anathema for NOT venerating icons as in the 7th council)

Citation please?

simonthezealot · Mar 8, 2011

Rick said this,

Rick Otto said:
...See the whole point of Sola Scriptura is that it makes it possible for you to find out for yourself, without having to blindly trust & ask someone like me.

Then IBS followed up with this comment

ivebeenshown said:
Which is exactly what David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc. did, so people could blindly trust someone like him.

SummaScriptura said:
I live in S.F. I was here when Jimmy was in his hey-day. I ran a Christian bookstore and would get his bulk mail begging for donations for the great work he was doing. It sent shivers up one's spine to watch this guy on community access TV. One time I specifically remember him taking a Bible, throwing it to the ground, standing on it and shouting angrily, "some of you are paying too much attention to this [the Bible]! YOU NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" The crowd lit up like Pentycostal holy-rollers. Truly scary.

Was someone trying to make a point related to Jimmy Jones and SS?

See above...That gets so old, and the truth is I could make a much better case for an association between the Pope and Jim Jones than they can for him and sola scriptura.

Dark_Lite · Mar 8, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
Citation please?

He's saying the rejection if iconoclasm was an error.

simonthezealot · Mar 8, 2011

simonthezealot said:
the truth is I could make a much better case for an association between the Pope and Jim Jones than they can for him and sola scriptura.

hmm new thread???
i'm thinking so...

ivebeenshown · Mar 8, 2011

simonthezealot said:
See above...That gets so old, and the truth is I could make a much better case for an association between the Pope and Jim Jones than they can for him and sola scriptura.

Just because I had my information wrong about Jim Jones doesn't make the point of the argument any less valid.

Replace Jim Jones with Ellen White.

Dark_Lite said:
He's saying the rejection if iconoclasm was an error.

He probably meant that, but there is a huge difference between anathema people who say veneration is not allowed versus anathema people who simply don't venerate Christian images but acknowledge that it is okay to do so. I don't do it, not my thing, but I have nothing against it.

simonthezealot · Mar 8, 2011

Dark_Lite said:
He's saying the rejection if iconoclasm was an error.

I tend to agree, but you already knew that...

Ortho_Cat · Mar 8, 2011

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Orthodox Catholic Church? Anyway, I have a different question for you, related to the topic. Suppose I am shopping for a Church. I go to a Catholic priest , an Orthodox bishop , and a Protestant pastor . They all claim their teachings are established by Jesus Christ and the apostles, but upon doing some research I find their teachings are quite different. Which of them do I put stock in, and how will I know I've made the right decision?

When I said I am not Catholic, I was referring to Roman Catholic. Your issues re. the papacy etc. are not relevant to me.

My suggestion? Do more research and attend the services of each. That's what I did. I came to the conlusion that while nothing on this earth is perfect, the Orthodox Church remains most faithful to the apostolic tradition. Anyways, this thread isn't about that. It's about SS, so let's continue down that rabbit hole...

simonthezealot · Mar 8, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
Just because I had my information wrong about Jim Jones doesn't make the point of the argument any less valid.

Replace Jim Jones with Ellen White.

False prophets/false teachers.
They will come in amongst us and even did during Paul's missionary works.
AGAIN...Any division is because these denominations fail to truly resort to true sola scriptura. They do what your church does and raise man made traditions up to a level that presupposes the true view that scripture is our only infallible rule of faith.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Ortho_Cat · Mar 8, 2011

Rick Otto said:
T
...See the whole point of Sola Scriptura is that it makes it possible for you to find out for yourself, without having to blindly trust & ask someone like me.

Interesting that this process of inquiry which you describe led me straight to the ancient church.

Heavens · Mar 8, 2011

It's quite easy to compare other religions to the Bible to see if they have any truth.

The last thing I would do is to let others' influence what the Bible teaches me, especially those who are of a denomination, any a man led denomination, whether RCs or Protestants. I had plenty of that when young and dumb.

I'm not a "protestant" either. What do "they" have to offer any more than RC?
Joining a religious 'group' is simply base "herd" mentality, where the carnal mind can be tickled by men's "tradition and interpretation". It doesn't take anything "spiritual" to be a protestant OR an RC, one can just "join".

Not so with becoming a Son of God. That only comes through Scriptura Sola and prayer and being filled with the Holy Spirit of Christ resurrected, being "born from above". No "church" can do that for anybody!

I have nothing to do with the battles between denominations, until when I see an incredibly ignorant claim levied against "Scriptura Sola" as in this OP, then I speak out of course.

Scriptura Sola is the only means by which God can work directly with an individual in fashioning us into His own image. To come against that is of the enemy.

Who would want to be fashioned into a different image as presented by RC? Or Protestant? That holds no interest for me. Nor for God.

A book of remembrance of those who lobby against a person reading the Bible and working out salvation in fear and trembling before His almighty God, is certainly filling up with lost souls. That is for sure. But I understand. It is natural. Jesus dealt with it for three and a half years;

(Mat 23:15) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Ortho_Cat · Mar 8, 2011

StThomasMore said:
actually Jefferson's butchering and plagiarizing of the bible was quite horrifying.

But he thought it was brilliant, that's all that matters...

Ortho_Cat · Mar 8, 2011

Rick Otto said:
Most people are bad mathmeticians so math is worthless.
i get it.

math doesn't require personal interpretation...if done properly everyone get's the same answers.

Ortho_Cat · Mar 8, 2011

SummaScriptura said:
Dr. More, please don't put heresy in the mouths of Baptists. You know, even Wikidpedia is better than you running off the top of your head. For your information, Baptists subscribe to the Apostles Creed. Its Catholics who deny the Universal Church by claiming to be it. Roman Catholic is an oxymoron after all.

Not any baptist churches that i've ever been to, and that's based on 25 years in baptist churches. The word Apostles creed (much less the contents therein) never crossed the lips of any of my baptist pastors (southern and independant baptist), at least while I was in their presence.

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