Why so many denoms?

[TCat]

I'm a pretty immature Christian, on milk and just learning about faith in Christ so please don't flame me for asking what may be a really dumb question.

We know that the Holy Spirit draws up to Christ and brings us to faith, it is not of our own choosing regardless of what some believe, right? The Holy Spirit gives us faith, spiritual sight, an awareness of our sin and separation from God. He chooses us and leads us to grow in our Christian walk. Am I right so far?

Since it is the Holy Spirit that chooses and leads and directs us in our faith why are there so many different denominations? Why does God allow sincere Christians to be Pentacostals, or Methodists or Catholics or Lutherans? The theology's are so different and it drives Christians apart rather than uniting the body of Christ.

Maybe this is one of "those" questions that has no clear answer but it seems clear that there are Christians in and out of many differant denominations all who believe they have the correct interpetation of the Bible and certainly have a strong faith and relationship with Jesus. I struggle with trying to understand why the Holy Spirit just doesn't bring everyone to the LCMS doors and give us all the same faith.

Is this a really stupid post?

 

[filosofer]

I'm a pretty immature Christian, on milk and just learning about faith in Christ so please don't flame me for asking what may be a really dumb question.

We know that the Holy Spirit draws up to Christ and brings us to faith, it is not of our own choosing regardless of what some believe, right? The Holy Spirit gives us faith, spiritual sight, an awareness of our sin and separation from God. He chooses us and leads us to grow in our Christian walk. Am I right so far?

Since it is the Holy Spirit that chooses and leads and directs us in our faith why are there so many different denominations? Why does God allow sincere Christians to be Pentacostals, or Methodists or Catholics or Lutherans? The theology's are so different and it drives Christians apart rather than uniting the body of Christ.

Maybe this is one of "those" questions that has no clear answer but it seems clear that there are Christians in and out of many differant denominations all who believe they have the correct interpetation of the Bible and certainly have a strong faith and relationship with Jesus. I struggle with trying to understand why the Holy Spirit just doesn't bring everyone to the LCMS doors and give us all the same faith.

Is this a really stupid post?

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Not stupid at all. In fact, it shows some insight into Scripture and the tension in which we live in this world. The tension between what Scripture presents and what we see demonstrated in the Church.

The only addition I offer to clarify the question is to distinguish between denominations and major theological streams/movements. That is, the major theological streams/movements would be Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. Then within each of these there would be denominations (LCMS, TAALC, WELS, ELS, ELCA, CLC, AFL, LB, etc.). So the question is really two-fold: why some many theological streams/movements and why some many denominations within each stream/movement?

So I would go back to you for further clarification: do you want to know why some many streams/movements? Or do you want to know why so many denominations within a stream/movement?

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

 

[TCat]

Maybe I am asking an unanswerable question. If the RC or Lutheran or whomever has it right why doesn't the Holy Spirit just lead His people in that direction.

I certainly had no intention of ever joining and LCMS church, not after all the instruction I got NOT to attend and yet I know that God led me right to the steps and wants me right in the church I am in now.

Maybe part of the question I am also asking is that if God wanted me in my church He has reasons for wanting others in their particular churches. If that is the case then perhaps all the "stuff" that goes along with our particular style and the things that make up each denomination or major stream is much less important to God than we like to make it seem.

Does this make sense?

 

[DaRev]

The Holy Spirit guides us to the truth. But since we are sinful humans and are capable of resisting the Spirit, many have altered the truth to suit their own particular ideas. The church which stays with the teachings handed down in the Scripture is the closest to that truth.

I firmly believe that the Confessional Lutheran Church is the closest to the church of the apostles and thus the closest to the truth that exists on earth, because of our formal principal of sola Scriptura (Scripture alone).

Many churches teach that baptism is only an outward sign and a work of man and that it does not save us. Scripture clearly teaches us otherwise.

Many churches teach that Jesus' body and blood are not present in the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper, but Scripture clearly teaches us that it is.

Many churches teach that we are saved by faith and works and that we have to make a decision to be Christians, but the Scriptures clearly teach us otherwise.

 

[TCat]

The Holy Spirit guides us to the truth. But since we are sinful humans and are capable of resisting the Spirit, many have altered the truth to suit their own particular ideas. The church which stays with the teachings handed down in the Scripture is the closest to that truth.

But nearly every church I have ever been to and most Christians that I have talked to all said this same thing. Everyone believes that THEIR interpetation of Scripture is the correct one which is why I believe there are so many churches.

But we know there is only one God, one Baptism, one Holy Spirit who draw us into the Truth. Can it be that God in His infinite wisdom wants us to have so many different church groups? The Holy Spirit convicts us to the truth, is it possible that what He says to one person is different than what he says to another?

Or is Satan poisoning everyones thinking so that only a lucky few ever get to recieve the truth from the True church. That makes no sense. See my dilema?

 

[bdfhjlnprtvxz]

I'm a pretty immature Christian, on milk and just learning about faith in Christ so please don't flame me for asking what may be a really dumb question.

An old saying: There are no stupid questions, there are only questions unasked. ... er, something like that...

We know that the Holy Spirit draws up to Christ and brings us to faith, it is not of our own choosing regardless of what some believe, right?

I think that we are brought to faith, but what we choose to believe, and what we choose to not believe, is something that we choose as humans (imperfect humans, mind you ).

The Holy Spirit gives us faith, spiritual sight, an awareness of our sin and separation from God. He chooses us and leads us to grow in our Christian walk. Am I right so far?

Sounds good to me, except the "spiritual sight" part. Do you mean spiritual insight as in helping us to realize that there's more to life than our own wants and needs, or do you actually mean spiritual sight as in seeing spirits...? sorry, I may be looking a li'l deep into this one, but I wanna be sure so that we're on the same page.

Since it is the Holy Spirit that chooses and leads and directs us in our faith why are there so many different denominations? Why does God allow sincere Christians to be Pentacostals, or Methodists or Catholics or Lutherans? The theology's are so different and it drives Christians apart rather than uniting the body of Christ.

Why does God allow it? Well... this is my own thought, and idk how particularly Lutheran it is, but, lemme give you a quick parable:

A couple has their first child. As an infant, it needed help and attention and direct love from its parents in order to survive. However, as the child grew older, it became more independent; it still needs its parents' help to overcome some obstacles, but it can basically manage on its own, to a point. Eventually, there will come that rebellious age where the child wants to do what it wants, and not be held down by its parents. So, the child'll go out, do some bad things, eventually get caught, and then realize that it still needs its parents. The child grows older, and as such becomes more and more independent. Eventually, the child is its own adult, and lives out on its own, and makes its own choices; however, this child still will come to its parents when it needs help, and its parents are always going to be there for the child so long as the child is willing to accept help from the parents.

... end of parable. Now, interpretation!
Parents=God. Child=World. When the world was young and first created by God, He had to be there to help guide them, or else they couldn't survive (which is my strange reason as to why God is so prevalent and in direct contact with the people of the Old Testament). However, as the world grows older, it breaks off from its Parent, but still has some connections with it (the church).
So, key point of this: Why does God allow multiple denominations? Because He doesn't need to step in and get directly involved with us (and tell us what is truly right and wrong between the denoms) as He had to do in the Old Testament, because now we can know better (Bible, Jesus' example). I mean, God could sit and guide us all by the hand, but then we would never grow up, we would never mature our faiths.
So, which one is ultimately right? In my mind, LCMS lol... but, in all honesty, we'll find out when He comes back

Maybe this is one of "those" questions that has no clear answer but it seems clear that there are Christians in and out of many differant denominations all who believe they have the correct interpetation of the Bible and certainly have a strong faith and relationship with Jesus. I struggle with trying to understand why the Holy Spirit just doesn't bring everyone to the LCMS doors and give us all the same faith.

Well, I think every denom. wonders why the Holy Spirit hasn't brought all the other denoms. to their doors and make them all united under their own doctrines. But, unfortunately, in this lifetime, we'll probably never see that. But, in the life and world to come, we who faithfully believe in Jesus Christ as our one and only Savior, and who live as He taught us (to the best of our imperfect abilities), will be united with God in Heaven. Yay! lol...

Is this a really stupid post?

Nope. It's a good question, one that many ask, few have good answers to, and probably one that I think every Christian ponders at least once in their lifetime. Never feel afraid to ask a question, there's a lot of us who love to sound smart-*COUGH* I MEAN want to help... lol... (slight jab at myself, to be honest)...

Well, I hope your faith continues to grow in Him who sets us free, and that there's a whole mess of us here who are willing to help you if you ever are struggling with something.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

I think that maybe christianity being split is sort of a divine thing. If we are split up we are constatly making sure Christ is first. When Rome was the only church it put Christ second to greed.

 

[Studeclunker]

Tcat, I just wanted to check in and complement you on a really good question! You may be a new Christian, but this question proves that you are listening and paying attention.

Well done!

As to the answer to your question, I'd largely agree with Nordic. There would be a possible exception to add in the Eastern Orthidox churches as well, though. They too have strayed with putting the church in front of Christ and the Word.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Maybe I am asking an unanswerable question. If the RC or Lutheran or whomever has it right why doesn't the Holy Spirit just lead His people in that direction.

I certainly had no intention of ever joining and LCMS church, not after all the instruction I got NOT to attend and yet I know that God led me right to the steps and wants me right in the church I am in now.

Maybe part of the question I am also asking is that if God wanted me in my church He has reasons for wanting others in their particular churches. If that is the case then perhaps all the "stuff" that goes along with our particular style and the things that make up each denomination or major stream is much less important to God than we like to make it seem.

Does this make sense?

Or is Satan poisoning everyones thinking so that only a lucky few ever get to recieve the truth from the True church. That makes no sense. See my dilema?

Simply put is that the Holy Spirit does lead us in the knowledge of the truth. But our own thoughts interfere in the process and try to combine with God's holy truth. Hence denoms. DaRev put it in more succinctly. We should listen more to our pastors that are called than to people with just intellectual opinions.

The Holy Spirit guides us to the truth. But since we are sinful humans and are capable of resisting the Spirit, many have altered the truth to suit their own particular ideas. The church which stays with the teachings handed down in the Scripture is the closest to that truth.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Or is Satan poisoning everyones thinking so that only a lucky few ever get to recieve the truth from the True church. That makes no sense. See my dilema?

People have a tendency to over or under estimate Satan. He is real and he is insidious. He is dancing for glee to see that there are so many divisions in the "Church". If he can keep us infighting then we will forget the main reason of our beliefs and that is spreading the gospel of God's grace and mercy to us sinners.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Why so many denoms?

There were several denoms in Jesus' day. There was the guy who was lowered through the roof. There was the woman that came up and touched Jesus' garment. Jesus shows a multide of ways of touching and reaching people.

Denoms try to commit Jesus to doing it "one" way. It is the one way they postulate. So you have tongue speakers and Holy Spirit chasers. You have Jesus accepters. You have Jesus only baptisims. You have immersion and adult only baptisms.

I am not going to give the devil his due on this. This is a wonderful way that God hides the wheat among the tares. Imagine if as you suggest that the Spirit led to a conviction of the "true visible church". This would make it one huge, visible target. And what about all the other believers in the other churches?

Our catechism holds to a larger view. There is only One Church. All believers of Jesus Christ are members of her and cross many denoms. I have many friends in these churches. It is not for me to judge if they came through the roof or used the door. I am just glad they know the Lord.

I for one would be really disappointed to find out that the LCMS is IT as for being the visible true reality of Jesus Christ. I was hoping for so much more if that was the case.

Peace,
Cos

 

[DaRev]

But nearly every church I have ever been to and most Christians that I have talked to all said this same thing. Everyone believes that THEIR interpetation of Scripture is the correct one which is why I believe there are so many churches.

But we know there is only one God, one Baptism, one Holy Spirit who draw us into the Truth. Can it be that God in His infinite wisdom wants us to have so many different church groups? The Holy Spirit convicts us to the truth, is it possible that what He says to one person is different than what he says to another?

Or is Satan poisoning everyones thinking so that only a lucky few ever get to recieve the truth from the True church. That makes no sense. See my dilema?

That's true. Every church will say they have it right. But it can't be so because so many of them have conflicting doctrines.

The basis of Lutheran doctrine and Scriptural interpretation is "Scripture interprets Scripture." If we stay within God's holy word, we can't go wrong. So many other churches have either added to God's word and base their doctrines on those additions (Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are prime examples) or they bring in other elements to try and interpret God's word like human reason or human science or human history, none of which is inspired or reliable to interpret the Divine word of God because they are inherently flawed.

Jesus tells us (in both John 3 and John 6 among other places) that what is needed to comprehend God's teaching is a Spiritual element. Those who bring in human elements have strayed from God's truth. If we stay with what the Spirit has provided, through divine inspiration, we have indeed been guided by the Spirit into all truth. This the Lutheran Church does and is why I am Lutheran and no longer Roman Catholic.

 

[Studeclunker]

Simply put is that the Holy Spirit does lead us in the knowledge of the truth. But our own thoughts interfere in the process and try to combine with God's holy truth. Hence denoms. DaRev put it in more succinctly. We should listen more to our pastors that are called than to people with just intellectual opinions.

This is most true. Still, Rad, don't you think that, "We should listen more to our pastors that are called than to people with just intellectual opinions," is just a hair incomplete? In this statement you have both hit the nail on the head and missed it. I would add 'ordained' to called. This is because all of us are called to the service of Christ.

I'll be so bold as to quote, as a R. Catholic priest once called him, 'the original Lutheran', "As the human body, which has many parts, is a unity, and those parts, despite their multiplicity, constitute one single body, so it is with Christ." [Phillips Paraphrase]

I agree with Nordic and Cos, in that each denom reaches out to those it can. In that, the evil one thinks he has succeeded in dividing the church and thus weakened it. Nothing could be further from the truth. He was wrong when Christ was crucified and he is wrong now. Yes, we in the LCMS are dealing with his interferrence. But as the Jewish women oft say, "this too, shall pass..." The ELCA fell, due to this influence. I hope and pray the LCMS can defeat it and rise above the evil one's macinations.

If I might be so bold as to add; each denomination performs it's own service to Christ. We in the Lutheran church are known for sound doctrine and adherance to scripture. In the Salvation Army, they are devoted to the service of the needy. Each fulfills their niche in the service of God and his son, Jesus Christ.

 

[porterross]

Why so many denoms?

There were several denoms in Jesus' day. There was the guy who was lowered through the roof. There was the woman that came up and touched Jesus' garment. Jesus shows a multide of ways of touching and reaching people.

Denoms try to commit Jesus to doing it "one" way. It is the one way they postulate. So you have tongue speakers and Holy Spirit chasers. You have Jesus accepters. You have Jesus only baptisims. You have immersion and adult only baptisms.

I am not going to give the devil his due on this. This is a wonderful way that God hides the wheat among the tares. Imagine if as you suggest that the Spirit led to a conviction of the "true visible church". This would make it one huge, visible target. And what about all the other believers in the other churches?

Our catechism holds to a larger view. There is only One Church. All believers of Jesus Christ are members of her and cross many denoms. I have many friends in these churches. It is not for me to judge if they came through the roof or used the door. I am just glad they know the Lord.

I for one would be really disappointed to find out that the LCMS is IT as for being the visible true reality of Jesus Christ. I was hoping for so much more if that was the case.

Peace,
Cos

Awesome and loving perspective, Cos. You get right to the point of our hearts being the measure by which we are judged.

 

[TCat]

Awesome and loving perspective, Cos. You get right to the point of our hearts being the measure by which we are judged.

Thank you all, good point porterross, in Bible Study we have been talking about out hearts being measured by which we are judged, especially by how we judge other Christians.

I appreciate everyones input here. This morning at church I was thinking about the fact that even in my own church there are those who belittle and scorn the two types of services offered, as if there were only one correct way to worship and anything different must be wrong or less pleasing to God.

No wonder there are so many denominations. Thank God there is only one Christ, and Him crucified for us all.

 

[bdfhjlnprtvxz]

Thank God there is only one Christ, and Him crucified for us all.

Amen, and I say again, Amen!

 

[rockytrails]

excuse me for being stupid but are you asking why so many denominations all with different interpetations ?
i don't know why But God does here is his answer.
1 cor 11:19
i need to read it to.

i know the verse but forgot the reason God gave
dumb of me .huh

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm a pretty immature Christian, on milk and just learning about faith in Christ so please don't flame me for asking what may be a really dumb question.

We know that the Holy Spirit draws up to Christ and brings us to faith, it is not of our own choosing regardless of what some believe, right? The Holy Spirit gives us faith, spiritual sight, an awareness of our sin and separation from God. He chooses us and leads us to grow in our Christian walk. Am I right so far?

Since it is the Holy Spirit that chooses and leads and directs us in our faith why are there so many different denominations? Why does God allow sincere Christians to be Pentacostals, or Methodists or Catholics or Lutherans? The theology's are so different and it drives Christians apart rather than uniting the body of Christ.

Maybe this is one of "those" questions that has no clear answer but it seems clear that there are Christians in and out of many differant denominations all who believe they have the correct interpetation of the Bible and certainly have a strong faith and relationship with Jesus. I struggle with trying to understand why the Holy Spirit just doesn't bring everyone to the LCMS doors and give us all the same faith.

Is this a really stupid post?

the key is in one of your questions.....
"why does God allow sincere christians"

by which, to verify, I think you mean actual true followers or seekrs of God and His Plan.

well, Jesus pointed out that a lot of so-called 'sincere christians' who are expecting to get to heaven simply won't get there = and He boots them out on Judgement Day.
not just a few, but multitudes of them.

33 years ago I read this in the RSV (I didn't even know about other translations/word studies/hebrew or greek or concordances even)
as I devoured the whole Scripture avidly in my first love for my Saviour Jesus.
For 3 years I read and read and read the Bible through and through with the Promise of Jesus alive and fresh in my heart as He said "If you love the Truth, My Father Himself will teach you the Truth about all things" [it is written in the Gospels in the Bible]
and
"If you love anyone or anything else more than me, you are not worthy of me" (i.e. if you follow what man says or wants instead of what God says to do ).

ergo, as men everywhere follow their own ways [every one claiming that their way is the right way]
they all simply set up shop according to their own ideas
instead of doing what God says simply and plainly to do.

Peace, I give to you, Jesus said;
and No man comes to the Father but by Me, Jesus said;
and I will never leave you nor forsake you, Jesus said;

with these and many other certainties, God's own Word,
you may trust Jesus and do as Jesus says and you will never be
disappointed in Him (although you will be brokenhearted over and over again by the wickedness and sorrow on this earth).

But, just as God's Word says, if you trust man, you are under a curse. As Jesus Himself said - "They cannot know Me because they seek the appoval of others. You (disciples of Jesus) are not here to seek approval, but Truth."