Why Should I Want To Go To Heaven?

[ericlawrence]

While, in my experience, Christians are capable of describing the horrors of Hell vividly and with great proficiency, they have yet to dream up an illustration of eternal happiness that can be conveyed in a way that anyone should so much as be impressed with the scenery. (Islam, on the other hand, has at least made a rather crude attempt at sweetening the pot with the promise of 72 virgins.) Is there freewill in Heaven? Is there pleasure? Is there any truth left to search for in Heaven or has the pursuit of knowledge become a dead enterprise? Where is the value of living for an eternity with no mysteries left to uncover? An eternity spent groveling beneath rule of an immortal king who's absolute rule over the kingdom will never come to an end, and who will never let you go - I dare say, to me this would be Hell.
What is enticing about Heaven to you? Is there anything that I should find enticing about it?

 

[AlexBP]

While, in my experience, Christians are capable of describing the horrors of Hell vividly and with great proficiency, they have yet to dream up an illustration of eternal happiness that can be conveyed in a way that anyone should so much as be impressed with the scenery.

I would wonder, then, exactly what your experience is. The Holy Bible spends a great many verses describing paradise and only the tiniest number describing Hell. Christian art, music, and literature focus likewise. To say that Christians spend more time describing Hell than Heaven is just plain incorrect.

(Islam, on the other hand, has at least made a rather crude attempt at sweetening the pot with the promise of 72 virgins.)

Nope. The claim that Islam promises 72 virgins is untrue and is a classic example of why you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet. The incorrect statement you made above about Christianity would be true if you applied it to Islam. If you read the Koran, you'll see that it's almost entirely about the suffering of non-believers in Hell, and the only description of paradise is that it includes a garden with a river. So if you like gardens with rivers, perhaps that's the religion for you, but otherwise not so much.

Is there freewill in Heaven? Is there pleasure? Is there any truth left to search for in Heaven or has the pursuit of knowledge become a dead enterprise? Where is the value of living for an eternity with no mysteries left to uncover? An eternity spent groveling beneath rule of an immortal king who's absolute rule over the kingdom will never come to an end, and who will never let you go - I dare say, to me this would be Hell.
What is enticing about Heaven to you? Is there anything that I should find enticing about it?

What's so enticing about Heaven is the fact that in Heaven I can be set free from the chains of sin and rise up to the level of being for which I was intended. Here on earth, virtually all of existence is endlessly cycling through a monotonous process of pursuing trivial goals: money, sex, power, intellectualism, snobbery, and physical pleasure. Only on a few occasions do we rise about such pointlessness to a mystical sort of pleasure, in what psychiatrist Abraham Maslow called a "peak experience". Once in Heaven, all those trivialities will be seen for what they truly are, and everyone will have a permanent peak experience of union with God, the angels, and fellow people. You are, in fact, entirely right, in saying that a mere extension of trivial human pleasures for eternity would be a horrible thing. That's exactly the point.

 

[bling]

You are right to assume some people would not be happy in heaven, for it is not for everyone, but it is for those that want to be there.
Heaven is not like earth since earth is a place for willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective. Believers are not “happy” on earth but can have much joy, a wonderful objective, can participate in a wonderful work, can be partners with God’s Spirit in allowing the indwelling Spirit to accomplish great things and thus share in His glory by being there.
Heaven is like a huge Love feast.
God can finally shower His blessing on you without conflicting with your objective.
Think about it like this: You have the ultimate Loving Father that has shown His willingness to sacrifice His most precious possession for your (His son) and now He does not have to hold back His gifts He can give you due to your need to obtain Godly type Love, since you obtained that Love on earth (the only way you could obtain it).
Yes you have free will, but satan is not around, you do not have a sexual body that can steer up conflicts between you and others, you have a good understanding from experience of evil, and God is providing you with everything so you have no wants.

 

[Migdala]

While, in my experience, Christians are capable of describing the horrors of Hell vividly and with great proficiency, they have yet to dream up an illustration of eternal happiness that can be conveyed in a way that anyone should so much as be impressed with the scenery. (Islam, on the other hand, has at least made a rather crude attempt at sweetening the pot with the promise of 72 virgins.) Is there freewill in Heaven? Is there pleasure? Is there any truth left to search for in Heaven or has the pursuit of knowledge become a dead enterprise? Where is the value of living for an eternity with no mysteries left to uncover? An eternity spent groveling beneath rule of an immortal king who's absolute rule over the kingdom will never come to an end, and who will never let you go - I dare say, to me this would be Hell.
What is enticing about Heaven to you? Is there anything that I should find enticing about it?

If you have never experienced being filled with the Holy Spirit, and feeling God's Presence all around you, you could never begin to understand....because once you experience that, it's like the best feeling you can ever imagine....much, much better than being drunk or on any drugs, or sex...(and yes, I've done all that,) and being filled with the Holy Spirit is by far much, much better. Once you "taste" God, you'll spend the rest of your life trying to get closer to Him, to please Him, to feel His Presence more in your life.

And that is only a teeny, tiny, tiny taste of what Heaven will be like...we will be in God's Presence worshiping Him!!! Forever! We won't be thinking about whether there will be sex or any of our favorite hobbies, etc. etc.....we will be in the presence of God!!!

 

[aiki]

While, in my experience, Christians are capable of describing the horrors of Hell vividly and with great proficiency, they have yet to dream up an illustration of eternal happiness that can be conveyed in a way that anyone should so much as be impressed with the scenery.

You're speaking only for yourself, of course. Many people find the prospect of Heaven a wonderfully joyful thing. Certainly, the Bible's description of Heaven differs sharply from the caricature of harps, angel's wings, clouds and blissful boredom that is commonly offered in movies, cartoons, commercials, etc.

(Islam, on the other hand, has at least made a rather crude attempt at sweetening the pot with the promise of 72 virgins.)

Such a "paradise" speaks loudly of the human (particularly male) origin of its conception.

Is there freewill in Heaven?

Fallen angels suggests that there is.

Is there pleasure?

Yes. In God's presence is "fullness of joy" and at his right hand are "pleasures forevermore" the Bible says. (Ps. 16:11)

Is there any truth left to search for in Heaven or has the pursuit of knowledge become a dead enterprise?

In Heaven one dwells in the presence of the Source of all truth and knowledge.

Where is the value of living for an eternity with no mysteries left to uncover?

Why should the absence of mystery make eternal life without value? I doubt even after an eternity with God we will have plumbed the depths of His infinite knowledge, power, and love. Arriving in Heaven doesn't make one suddenly divine, which would be necessary for fully comprehending the Creator. He will always remain the greatest mystery of all.

An eternity spent groveling beneath rule of an immortal king who's absolute rule over the kingdom will never come to an end, and who will never let you go - I dare say, to me this would be Hell.

LOL! Groveling? LOL! Only one who doesn't know the Immortal King would characterize living with Him this way.

What is enticing about Heaven to you? Is there anything that I should find enticing about it?

The most enticing thing about Heaven is God Himself. Since you don't seem to have much appreciation for your Maker, I doubt you'd find His heavenly home particularly attractive.

Selah.

 

[Uncle Floyd]

While, in my experience, Christians are capable of describing the horrors of Hell vividly and with great proficiency, they have yet to dream up an illustration of eternal happiness that can be conveyed in a way that anyone should so much as be impressed with the scenery. (Islam, on the other hand, has at least made a rather crude attempt at sweetening the pot with the promise of 72 virgins.) Is there freewill in Heaven? Is there pleasure? Is there any truth left to search for in Heaven or has the pursuit of knowledge become a dead enterprise? Where is the value of living for an eternity with no mysteries left to uncover? An eternity spent groveling beneath rule of an immortal king who's absolute rule over the kingdom will never come to an end, and who will never let you go - I dare say, to me this would be Hell.
What is enticing about Heaven to you? Is there anything that I should find enticing about it?

Honestly? I can't imagine why an atheist would ever want to go to Heaven. It would be an eternity of sheer agony for you.

There would be no sin to engage in, you would forever be face to face with the person you hate more than anything, your own sin and wretchedness would eternally be magnified against the Holiness and perfection of Jesus Christ, and you would witness the boundless joy of God's children, never being able to experience it for yourself.

Atheists love to talk about how cruel their imagination of God is, but nothing could be more cruel than God sentencing the unregenerate to an eternity in Heaven.

At least in Hell, you'll get all the sin you want and you'll have multitudes who hate God just as you do to comiserate with.

For the redeemed, however, Heaven will be filled with bliss. The freedom not only from sin, but from our sin nature, from the fleshly nature that so often entangles us in sin, worshipping God in His presence with brothers and sisters from all over the world, from through all the millenia, endless opportunities to serve God and glorify Him, endless creative opportunities, endless opportunies to edify one another, no more sickness, pain, sorrow, or death, and an endless, face to face relationship with the one who created and then redeemed us.

 

[ericlawrence]

I would wonder, then, exactly what your experience is. The Holy Bible spends a great many verses describing paradise and only the tiniest number describing Hell. Christian art, music, and literature focus likewise. To say that Christians spend more time describing Hell than Heaven is just plain incorrect.

I assume you're referring to beginning of Revelation 21. Fair enough, it is a rather lengthy description which details the location of sapphires, transparency of the glass, and the dimensions of the walls in in cubits. Admittedly, I may have misspoke; perhaps we should be impressed with the scenery. The important part is this however, "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain." These are the kind of details I'd like to focus the discussion on.

Nope. The claim that Islam promises 72 virgins is untrue and is a classic example of why you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet. The incorrect statement you made above about Christianity would be true if you applied it to Islam. If you read the Koran, you'll see that it's almost entirely about the suffering of non-believers in Hell, and the only description of paradise is that it includes a garden with a river. So if you like gardens with rivers, perhaps that's the religion for you, but otherwise not so much.

I appreciate your giving me advice on the nature of the internet and how to best discern fact from fantasy, but I object on the grounds that I'm not quite as slow on the uptake as you seem to presume. The Qur'an describes the rewards of paradise in some detail. Sura 56 verses 12-39 in particular. "They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..." There is some controversy over the translation as well as there is no reference to any specific number of "houris" in the Qur'an. However, if we look to volume 4 of the Hadith, sura 21 verse 72 we read: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 houri, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah to Sana'a.'" Again, houri can be translated in many ways, including "modest", "chaste", "spouse", "voluptuous woman", "lovely-eyed", etc. Generally we assume they have "been made virgins" by cross comparing with the Qur'an, but I digress.

What's so enticing about Heaven is the fact that in Heaven I can be set free from the chains of sin and rise up to the level of being for which I was intended. Here on earth, virtually all of existence is endlessly cycling through a monotonous process of pursuing trivial goals: money, sex, power, intellectualism, snobbery, and physical pleasure. Only on a few occasions do we rise about such pointlessness to a mystical sort of pleasure, in what psychiatrist Abraham Maslow called a "peak experience". Once in Heaven, all those trivialities will be seen for what they truly are, and everyone will have a permanent peak experience of union with God, the angels, and fellow people. You are, in fact, entirely right, in saying that a mere extension of trivial human pleasures for eternity would be a horrible thing. That's exactly the point.

Well for me, the pursuit of these pleasures is the experience. I'm not convinced I would be satisfied with only the peak. For example, I don't wish to simply be bestowed with all of the knowledge in the cosmos. I want engage in the active pursuit of this knowledge - this is what makes the payoff so rewarding, to know that I am constantly teetering on the cusp of something like grandeur. To bypass the struggle would ruin the process for me. I wasn't implying a mere extension of human peaks, I was asking if anything like an engaging object could even theoretically exist. Is there anything left to strive for?

To get back to some other specifics I raised; Is there (could there be) freewill in Heaven?

 

[ericlawrence]

You are right to assume some people would not be happy in heaven, for it is not for everyone, but it is for those that want to be there.

Is it possible for someone to end up in Heaven who wouldn't want to be there? Is Hell the only alternative?

Heaven is not like earth since earth is a place for willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective. Believers are not “happy” on earth but can have much joy, a wonderful objective, can participate in a wonderful work, can be partners with God’s Spirit in allowing the indwelling Spirit to accomplish great things and thus share in His glory by being there.
Heaven is like a huge Love feast.

Personally question, don't feel as if you have to answer: Would it be possible for you to be "happy" on Earth if you were not convinced by the promise of an afterlife?

God can finally shower His blessing on you without conflicting with your objective.

Is this because the objective has been completed? Are there more objectives which await?

Think about it like this: You have the ultimate Loving Father that has shown His willingness to sacrifice His most precious possession for your (His son) and now He does not have to hold back His gifts He can give you due to your need to obtain Godly type Love, since you obtained that Love on earth (the only way you could obtain it).

I have my problems with the sacrifice, but this probably isn't the place to address them. I'll just say that (given the hypothetical that it took place) I don't consider it a loving expression towards me.

Yes you have free will, but satan is not around, you do not have a sexual body that can steer up conflicts between you and others, you have a good understanding from experience of evil, and God is providing you with everything so you have no wants.

Well, even with a full understanding of good and evil, would I be able to commit an evil act if I so chose? Satan may not be around but if I was taught correctly, the reason why is is no longer around is because he chose to defy and was then ejected from Heaven. Would I be capable of making the same choice?

 

[ericlawrence]

If you have never experienced being filled with the Holy Spirit, and feeling God's Presence all around you, you could never begin to understand....because once you experience that, it's like the best feeling you can ever imagine....much, much better than being drunk or on any drugs, or sex...(and yes, I've done all that,) and being filled with the Holy Spirit is by far much, much better. Once you "taste" God, you'll spend the rest of your life trying to get closer to Him, to please Him, to feel His Presence more in your life.

Would you mind describing your experience with the holy spirit? I realize you may object to defining the experience with words. Perhaps some situational details such as: Does it happen often? How long does it last? What are some common circumstances which induce the holy spirit?

And that is only a teeny, tiny, tiny taste of what Heaven will be like...we will be in God's Presence worshiping Him!!! Forever! We won't be thinking about whether there will be sex or any of our favorite hobbies, etc. etc.....we will be in the presence of God!!!

I don't see how unending worship would help to console me over the absence of everything I've ever enjoyed.

Followup question: Could you be happy in Heaven knowing that a son, daughter, lover, or other close companion was suffering for all eternity?

 

[ericlawrence]

You're speaking only for yourself, of course. Many people find the prospect of Heaven a wonderfully joyful thing. Certainly, the Bible's description of Heaven differs sharply from the caricature of harps, angel's wings, clouds and blissful boredom that is commonly offered in movies, cartoons, commercials, etc.

I believe that they do find the prospect a joyful thing. I'm just wondering if these joys of Heaven can be conveyed to me or if I'm so designed - if you will - as to take exception to them.

Such a "paradise" speaks loudly of the human (particularly male) origin of its conception.

I agree. But could it not be argued that the very idea of an everlasting paradise speaks volumes about the human response to mortality?

Fallen angels suggests that there is.

This is what I'm getting at. Can god anticipate a rebellion prior to a person's entrance into Heaven, presuming the person was a near-perfect Christian in life?

Why should the absence of mystery make eternal life without value? I doubt even after an eternity with God we will have plumbed the depths of His infinite knowledge, power, and love. Arriving in Heaven doesn't make one suddenly divine, which would be necessary for fully comprehending the Creator. He will always remain the greatest mystery of all.

Well, eternity is a long time. I think I'd grow bored eventually. Good answers though. I suppose I'm simply predisposed to value the search over the discovery. Why is divinity a necessary requirement for a comprehension of a creator? At that, in what way would the creator be more divine that his creations?

LOL! Groveling? LOL! Only one who doesn't know the Immortal King would characterize living with Him this way.

I suppose I don't know him then. It is said of him that he requires eternal worship though, is it not?

The most enticing thing about Heaven is God Himself. Since you don't seem to have much appreciation for your Maker, I doubt you'd find His heavenly home particularly attractive.

I suppose you are correct. Thanks for the answers though.

 

[ericlawrence]

Honestly? I can't imagine why an atheist would ever want to go to Heaven. It would be an eternity of sheer agony for you.

That's what I thought as well. I guess we are in agreement.

There would be no sin to engage in, you would forever be face to face with the person you hate more than anything, your own sin and wretchedness would eternally be magnified against the Holiness and perfection of Jesus Christ, and you would witness the boundless joy of God's children, never being able to experience it for yourself.

Well to be fair I don't hate god for the simple reason that I don't really believe that he exists. But I suppose you are partly correct, for if I grant the hypothetical existence of the god of Abraham, I can't say I'm too fond of him. This is not to say that I would be predisposed to abhor any of the other infinite personalities that could be encompassed by any number of creator gods. I would probably enjoy a more deistic god. At the very least he would have to be one hell of a physicist.

Atheists love to talk about how cruel their imagination of God is, but nothing could be more cruel than God sentencing the unregenerate to an eternity in Heaven.

At least in Hell, you'll get all the sin you want and you'll have multitudes who hate God just as you do to comiserate with.

You're probably right that I would enjoy the company of allies in Hell. You're placing a bit more emphasis on the "you just want to sin" aspect than I can say I'm comfortable with though. I would imagine that much of what I do would be a sin in the eyes of the god of Abraham as I have no real commitment to a superstitious appeal to purity. I do consider myself a moralist, however, and would continue to live ethically in next life as I do in this one.

For the redeemed, however, Heaven will be filled with bliss. The freedom not only from sin, but from our sin nature, from the fleshly nature that so often entangles us in sin, worshipping God in His presence with brothers and sisters from all over the world, from through all the millenia, endless opportunities to serve God and glorify Him, endless creative opportunities, endless opportunies to edify one another, no more sickness, pain, sorrow, or death, and an endless, face to face relationship with the one who created and then redeemed us.

Is there freedom from sin in Heaven though? Lucifer was able to sin in Heaven. What's stopping this from happening again?

 

[ddjones1230]

.

 

[Uncle Floyd]

Well to be fair I don't hate god for the simple reason that I don't really believe that he exists.

You rebel against Him every day, with every breath. You refuse Him the worship He is due. You don't thank Him for your life, for your food, for your health, for any of the blessings He constantly pours out on you, for giving you day after day and opportunity after opportunity to repent.

That is hatred.

But I suppose you are partly correct, for if I grant the hypothetical existence of the god of Abraham, I can't say I'm too fond of him.

As is evidenced by your rebellion and all the more reason an atheist should not want to go to Heaven.

You're probably right that I would enjoy the company of allies in Hell. You're placing a bit more emphasis on the "you just want to sin" aspect than I can say I'm comfortable with though.

And yet, you sin every day without even a thought of repenting of your sins.

I do consider myself a moralist, however, and would continue to live ethically in next life as I do in this one.

Do you really live ethically?

Is there freedom from sin in Heaven though? Lucifer was able to sin in Heaven. What's stopping this from happening again?

Lucifer was removed from Heaven and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

[aiki]

I believe that they do find the prospect a joyful thing. I'm just wondering if these joys of Heaven can be conveyed to me or if I'm so designed - if you will - as to take exception to them.

Designed to take exception to them? I'm not sure what you mean. How would you be designed to take exception to Heaven?

I agree. But could it not be argued that the very idea of an everlasting paradise speaks volumes about the human response to mortality?

Sure, it can be - and has been - so argued.

The heavenly, eternal paradise of the Bible is grounded in the idea of it being God's home, not the realm in which every human predilection and instinct may be indulged. I think the biblical heaven goes rather against the grain of human thinking, which suggests it originates outside of the human mind. Certainly, it stands in sharp contrast to the self-serving paradise of the Muslim faith. The Heaven God offers to us in His Word is first and foremost reflective of His nature, not ours.

Could it be that the human preoccupation with eternity is a consequence of an innate awareness of the fact that God has made us eternal?

This is what I'm getting at. Can god anticipate a rebellion prior to a person's entrance into Heaven, presuming the person was a near-perfect Christian in life?

God doesn't anticipate in the sense that you and I might. He knows all things without going through some process to obtain that knowledge. There is nothing God doesn't know; He never has to search, or study, or investigate. Consequently, He would know from eternity past what anyone who is Heaven would or will do when they are there. But this knowledge doesn't preclude our freely choosing what we do.

Well, eternity is a long time. I think I'd grow bored eventually.

From what frame of reference do you arrive at this point of view? Heaven will be an utterly unprecedented experience for all who are there. Trying to compare what it will be like to what we know, trying to extrapolate from our experiences on earth what it will be like in Heaven, is like assessing the flavour of a boston cream pie when all you've ever eaten are mud pies.

Why is divinity a necessary requirement for a comprehension of a creator?

I meant for a full, complete understanding and knowledge of the Creator we would have to be as He is. We understand in a profoundly limited way some of who He is and what He is seeking to accomplish, and being the finite creatures that we are this will always be the case. The finite cannot contain the infinite.

At that, in what way would the creator be more divine that his creations?

Is the potter identical to the clay pots he makes? Does the clay pot share a common nature with the potter who made it? The world in which we live is well-made, but it is no more divine than a clay pot is human.

Selah.

 

[ericlawrence]

what an interesting viewpoint. if i've "got it made" (as promised to me, being a Christian) under said immortal king, i could give a rip how long he stays in power. so what? i don't get it.

To me, living in an anti-democratic state coupled with the looming realization that many of my loved ones are currently spending eternity in everlasting pain and suffering is fundamentally incompatible with feeling as if I've "got it made." How do you feel?

 

[ericlawrence]

You rebel against Him every day, with every breath. You refuse Him the worship He is due. You don't thank Him for your life, for your food, for your health, for any of the blessings He constantly pours out on you, for giving you day after day and opportunity after opportunity to repent.

That is hatred.

Well it may be hatred if you did it, but only because you believe in his existence. I'll break it down for you: presumably you don't believe in Allah, Zeus, Ba'al, Thor, etc. Yet, you rebel against them every day with every breath. You refuse them the worship that they are due. You don't thank them for your life, for your food, for your health, for any of the blessings they constantly pour out on you, or for giving you day after day and opportunity after opportunity to repent.

My guess is that the above doesn't mean much to you. It doesn't mean much to you because you don't believe that Allah, Zeus, Ba'al, or Thor exist - therefor you don't believe that it's possible that you've done them any wrong. Congratulations, now you know how I feel about Yahweh.

A further note: How and why is the assumption made that this god deserves or even desires worship?

Do you really live ethically?

Yes.

Lucifer was removed from Heaven and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

But not before committing sin in Heaven. Meaning that Heaven is not necessarily free from sin.

 

[ddjones1230]

.

 

[bling]

Is it possible for someone to end up in Heaven who wouldn't want to be there? Is Hell the only alternative?

No.
People that wind up going to hell do not have eternal life in hell. There appears to be degrees of punishment, but the flame that cannot be put out destroys everything.

Personally question, don't feel as if you have to answer: Would it be possible for you to be "happy" on Earth if you were not convinced by the promise of an afterlife?

Personally question, don't feel as if you have to answer: Would it be possible for you to be "happy" on Earth if you were not convinced by the promise of an afterlife?
I think sin has pleasure for a season, but sin is selfish and hurts others so it would be hard to be happy.

Is this because the objective has been completed? Are there more objectives which await?

There could be heavenly objectives, but I do not know what that would be. There is more to learn than you will ever learn.

I have my problems with the sacrifice, but this probably isn't the place to address them. I'll just say that (given the hypothetical that it took place) I don't consider it a loving expression towards me.

OK this is a huge subject.
If your mother took a bullet for you would that be an act of Love on her part?

Well, even with a full understanding of good and evil, would I be able to commit an evil act if I so chose? Satan may not be around but if I was taught correctly, the reason why is is no longer around is because he chose to defy and was then ejected from Heaven. Would I be capable of making the same choice?

Yes, but why would you do such a thing?
You would have plenty of reason to believe the story of satan and his demise.
What would you gain by doing evil and what “evil” would you consider doing?

The only thing anyone has over you is Godly type Love which means they Love you more than you love them, so who is the winner in that situation?

 

[ericlawrence]

no offense, but that's your youth talking.

No offense, but I'm not convinced you know me well enough to make that assumption.

and as far as the pain and suffering (you're really stuck on that, aintcha? hmmm) for eternity - that's not the correct definition of Hell. Even if it was, that would be their decision, now wouldn't it? "you think long, you think wrong". That really sounds harsh, but taking the road less traveled is not for woosies....I think that's why a lot of people have a problem with "religion", per se...I personally hate that word...anyway, we, as human survivalists, do not like to be told what to do...to be ruled, to use your anecdote. We have brains, we obviously know what's best for us, right? Not exactly.

I hardly think I'm "stuck" on the topic. I do think it carries a great deal of implications in regards to the joys of Heaven though.
Does god do what's best for us or does god do what's best for him? How would we know the difference?

on a side note-yesterday you were talking about the problems you have with preconceived notions of atheism....well, here's my "problem", if you will, with atheism...is that *most* of the problem atheists have is with so called Christians themselves on a personal level...experiences and events and the news, politicians and their idiocy and so on, that reflect the acts of people that claim to do stuff in the name of God or because that's what they believe, etc.

That isn't the underlying - or most of - the problem. The real issue is that an atheist doesn't believe that the claims made by theism are true. It wouldn't matter to me if there wasn't a single "bad" (or stupid, or mean, etc.) Christian in the world. It wouldn't matter to me if every single Christian was a shining beacon or ethical and intelligent discourse. It still wouldn't add a mote of value to the truth claims that Christianity makes.

But, if they were to just study the teachings of Jesus, what the whole party is based on, I think some would have a different view. Just take care of one another...lend a helping hand...give to the poor when you have extra...love unconditionally...

Most atheists are very familiar with the teachings of Jesus. Many of them subscribe to the idea that Jesus was a great moral teacher (I, personally, don't subscribe to view - I think his teachings are a mixed bag). You may recall this recent pew poll, in which atheists and agnostics were demonstrated to score higher than their religious counterparts in regards to religious knowledge.

and the common answer to that is "well, can't that be done without the intervention or even mention of a god?" Sure, it can...but not for the same reasons.

What reasons would that be? Wouldn't it be better to commit a noble act without the fear of punishment or the promise of a reward?

 

[Uncle Floyd]

Well it may be hatred if you did it, but only because you believe in his existence.

The problem with that line of logic is that you're not going to be judged by my standard. You're not even going to be judged by your own standard. You're going to be judged by God's standard and God has declared those actions to be tantamount to hatred.

Why does god deserve or even desire worship?

Because of His authority, His attributes, and His nature.

Yes.

Really? Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen anything? Have you ever hated anyone or been angry at someone? Have you ever looked at someone with lustful desires?

But not before committing sin in Heaven. Meaning that Heaven is not necessarily free from sin.

The Bible does say that it's sin free. Satan sinned. Heaven did not.