Why Should I Go To Church?

Lisa*Lisa said:

Sorry, no I don't know the answer without looking it up. I'm not a real bible scholar, i've only read it cover to cover once and I only remember the big main points.

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The answers to the questions he's asking aren't in the Bible...they're purely church tradition. Especially the first question - highly allegorical interpretation of much of Scripture which were a hallmark of the Alexandrian school of thought in the early Church. Ironically enough, the Antiochian school advocated taking Scripture literally as much as possible...

Melethiel said:

The answers to the questions he's asking aren't in the Bible...they're purely church tradition. Especially the first question - highly allegorical interpretation of much of Scripture which were a hallmark of the Alexandrian school of thought in the early Church. Ironically enough, the Antiochian school advocated taking Scripture literally as much as possible...

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You know the answer don't you Melethiel?

Forgive me...

OrthodoxyUSA said:

You know the answer don't you Melethiel?

Forgive me...

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Yes.

daydreamergurl15 said:

Scriptures provides an excellent example of the body of Christ fellowshipping together as one unit. It shows that those who were in a certain region worshipped together. We see that in Corinth, Thessaloniaca, Philippi, Athens, etc. 1 and 2 Corinthians gives us a glimpse of a group of people who were having many difficulties in their worship. Apostle Paul addressed many of the issues, one of which was division

1 Corinthians 1:10-16 (only quoting 2 verses)

I appeal to you brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no division among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there has been quarreling among you, my brothers...
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These verses are showing that this is a body that is worshiping (or dividing). They must be the same people.

Look at the way Paul is addressing other congregations. Praising many churches then have to correct others, why would he waste his time correcting other churches if they are not having the same consistent people worshiping together?

The church function in such a way that you need a tight knit group of Christians for it to work. Paul asked Timothy to go back to his congregation and appoint Elders and Deacons, those guys had to meet certain qualifications before they were appointed. Again, you would need to know the characters of these men to appoint them, it takes time to get to know someone. We are to teach each other, that takes time. There are so many more things that Christ ask us to do that we need to spend time together to get that accomplished.

And for people saying that one is a "church hopper" I don't hear that being said, but I don't understand how one can be effective in the Lord's church, if they go from church to church but not contributing to the work that is going on with the church at the congregation. Yes, we can go visit each other, but how often do we stay and fellowship with that group and go and help out where they need it, if all we are doing is meeting them one time? Don't get me wrong, scripture also show that the apostles and those who were with them were going from place to place strengthening the church. Macedonia sent gifts to other churches who were in need. Yes, we should go out and visit with each other, but we do have a responsibility to a "home" congregation.

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Wow . This is what I was saying ... people wil say that one should go to meetings because none is to be an island but they promote being islands , themselves . Your not understanding how one can be "effective" would most likely be based on what you consider is being effective . I most likely would not agree with how you look at being effective . Not that , for you , it is incorrect - only incorrect for me .

With respect to "fellowship" , very few groups from my perspective do much in their meetings - especially the liturgical groups . They consider just being at the meetings as "fellowship" . And , a good percentage of those that do say that fellowship is a higher priority have most of it after the meetings - after the real stuff of the meetings . Still , in the end , over 90% of the fellowship is during that one meeting a week . If one is using the Scriptures on the early church as an example of how the church today should be , they were seeing each other throughout the week - a family . They also would consider *all* Christians as Christians .

Lisa*Lisa said:

Sorry, no I don't know the answer without looking it up. I'm not a real bible scholar, i've only read it cover to cover once and I only remember the big main points.

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Lisa , they were trick questions - the only answers they would accept would be the ones that their group tells them are the correct answers .

The thieves represent the demons.

Forgive me...

New_Wineskin said:

Wow . This is what I was saying ... people wil say that one should go to meetings because none is to be an island but they promote being islands , themselves . Your not understanding how one can be "effective" would most likely be based on what you consider is being effective . I most likely would not agree with how you look at being effective . Not that , for you , it is incorrect - only incorrect for me .

With respect to "fellowship" , very few groups from my perspective do much in their meetings - especially the liturgical groups . They consider just being at the meetings as "fellowship" . And , a good percentage of those that do say that fellowship is a higher priority have most of it after the meetings - after the real stuff of the meetings . Still , in the end , over 90% of the fellowship is during that one meeting a week . If one is using the Scriptures on the early church as an example of how the church today should be , they were seeing each other throughout the week - a family . They also would consider *all* Christians as Christians .

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I don't think you read what I said. I am not promoting anyone being an island but that we do have a responsibility for a home congregation. You can read scripture and see that yourself.

As for "fellowship" I don't know what you are talking about. We the body meets more than once a week and we see each other constantly, and if we are not seeing each other, we are in constant talk to each other through social media or phone calls, so we know what is going on with each other. Many of us do hang out with each other, a fellowship is 2 or more Christians coming together--there you will find Christ. As for the idea that fellowship is being only once a week, I don't know what church you attend but please don't make that generalization for everyone else.

My church put on a bible camp in the summer, we attend other bible camps (I don't because of work, but others do), do mission works and go internationally for mission works, we also put on other events just so we can be with other Christians in different congregations all the while trying to spread the gospel (and I hope this doesn't sound like bragging, I'm just saying what the church do through because of Christ that is in us). So, I'm sorry that you feel that people in church only fellowship once a week, but I for one know that is not the truth. Please don't think that's all we do, I am only thinking of things that involves fellowship with other Christians.

We understand that there are Christians all over the world and we have meet them from all over the world and when we come together we have a common love for each other because of Christ. But take a look at the scriptures and read about the churches, and you can truly see, that these people meet daily (meaning there were the same people meeting each other--think about it, someone from Jerusalem couldn't meet up in Corinth daily, the walk would have been too long, but no one said it is wrong for someone to go and visit each other from time to time.

And as for being effective, there is no way in the world you can tell me that someone who go from church to church every Sunday, meeting only once a week, is being very productive in every church they go to.

But you seem to think that we Christians are someone ignoring each other if they are not in our own congregation, that's not the case, I've hung out with many Christians who do not attend my congregation, we are still bound together by a common love for Christ.

Lisa*Lisa said:

What's the point of it? My church is in my home, my backyard, my car, my mother's house, my daughter's house, my church is wherever I am because the kingdom of god is inside me and god is literally everywhere.

The gospel of Thomas recorded Jesus words as "Where there are two or one, I am with him." Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

I've never found church to be a place of inspiration, rather the opposite. I"m inspired by the beauty of nature, not the opulence of a man made building.

I"ve always found church to be nothing more then a social function, a political arena, a fashion show, and a place of showy displays.

I see a multi million dollar building, and then a homeless man sleeping in a cardboard box across the street. I see people spending millions of dollars to support this building, while many of the people there are hungry and in need of help. I see preachers living in mansions and driving BMW's while I'm struggling to pay my mortgage every month. I see social clicks, snobby people, unwelcoming to strangers when I go to church. I see alot of talk and not alot of practical doing, it's like a big production without substance.

Recently, my mom found one tiny neighborhood church that is very downscale, humble, modest, so I might check it out, (even tho I vowed to never attend church again) but the big ones make me sick. But, I dont' really even see the point of going.

So..........what's the point? Please explain it to me since I seem to be the oddball around here.

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The Gospel of Thomas also said that women can't enter heaven so they must make themselves men.

"Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

Athanasias said:

The Gospel of Thomas also said that women can't enter heaven so they must make themselves men.

"Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

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The Gospel of Thomas is NOT from The Church.

If you had been attending Church, you would know that.

St. Peter never said any such thing. You are thinking of St. Paul saying let the women keep quiet... you are confusing St. Peter with St. Paul.

We are needful of the Liturgy.

Forgive me...

Bishop Nikolai Velimirovch
The Prologue from Ohrid
[SIZE=-2]© Serbian Orthodox Church Diocese of Western America[/SIZE]

April 30


1. THE HOLY APOSTLE JAMES
James was the son of Zebedee, brother of John and one of the Twelve Apostles. At the invitation of the Lord Jesus, James left the fishermen's net, his father and, together with John, immediately followed after the Lord. He belonged to that trinity of apostles to whom the Lord revealed the greatest mysteries; before whom He was transfigured on Tabor and before whom He lamented before His agony in the Garden of Gethsemane. After receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, he preached the Gospel in various places and traveled to Spain. Upon his return from Spain, the Jews began to quarrel with him concerning Holy Scripture and no one was able to withstand him, not even a certain magician Hermogenes. Hermogenes and his disciple Philip were defeated by the power of truth which James preached and, both of them were baptized. Then the Jews accused him before Herod and persuaded Josias to slander the apostle. Josias, seeing the brave conduct of James and listening to his clear explanation about the truth, repented and believed in Christ. When James was condemned to death, this same Josias was also condemned to death. Enroute to the place of execution, Josias implored James to forgive him the sin of slander. James embraced and kissed him and said: "Peace and forgiveness be to you!" Both of them bowed their heads under the sword and were beheaded for the Lord Whom they loved and Whom they served. Saint James suffered in Jerusalem in the year 45 A.D. His body was translated to Spain, where miraculous healings occurred over his grave and, do so even today.
2. SAINT DONATUS
Donatus was bishop of Evira in Albania. He was endowed by God with the great blessing of miracle-working, by which he performed many miracles for the benefit of the people. Donatus changed bitter water into sweet water; brought down rain during a drought; healed the king's daughter of insanity; and resurrected a man from the dead. This deceased man had repaid his debt to a certain creditor. This unscrupulous creditor wanted the debt to be repaid a second time and, wanting to benefit from the death of his debtor, he came to his widow and demanded that the debt be repaid immediately. The widow wept and complained to the bishop. St. Donatus warned the creditor to wait, at least, until the man was buried and then the debt would be discussed. The creditor angrily insisted his own. Then Donatus approached the dead man, touched him and cried out: "Arise brother and see what you have with your creditor!." The dead man rose and with a frightening glance looked at his lender and related to him the time, when and where he had repaid the debt. He also sought from the lender his written receipt. The frightened lender then placed a document into his hands and the enlivened deceased tore it up and again lay down and died. St. Donatus died peacefully in very old age and took up habitation with the Lord in the year 387 A.D. His relics repose in Evira, Albania and, even today, benefit the faithful.
3. THE HOLY FEMALE MARTYR ARGYRA
Argyra, this neo-martyr was born in Brusa, of devout parents. As soon as Argyra was married to a Christian, a certain Turk from the neighborhood fell in love with her and invited her to live with him. The Christ-loving Argyra rejected such a vile proposal of this Turk. He became so enraged and accused her before the judge saying that she had wanted to embrace Islam and later reneged. This holy Argyra spent fifteen years suffering for Christ, going from judge to judge and from prison to prison. She loved Christ above everything in this world. She finally died in prison in Constantinople in the year 1725 A.D.
HYMN OF PRAISE
THE HOLY APOSTLE JAMES
Zebedee's James, one of three was,
Who saw the most miraculous mysteries of Christ,
Who saw the Transfiguration of the Savior,
In clothing white, with a flaming countenance,
And again in the Garden they saw Him sorrowful,
As a helpless prisoner, in the cage of the world.
By this contradiction, James was confused,
Until, enlightened he was, by the light of the Resurrection.
And when the Lord arose, James believed;
Ripped asunder the doubts as a cloud of dreams!
And yet, when the Spirit descended and the power to him, He gave,
James, victorious commander he became.
Day and night, he began to wage war,
And with God's help, miracles to work.
All for the Name of Christ; all in the glory of Christ,
Until that Holy Name did glisten in the world.
In vain did bloody Herod behead him
His commander God, granted him eternal glory.
REFLECTION
A devout elder lay on his death bed. His friends gathered around him and mourned him. With that, the elder laughed three times. The monks asked him: "What are you laughing at?" The elder replied: "I laughed the first time, because all of you are afraid of death; the second time, for none of you are prepared for death; the third time, because I am going from labor to rest." Behold, how a righteous man dies! He is not afraid of death. He is prepared for death. He sees, that through death, he passes from the difficult life to eternal rest. When the nature of man imagines itself in its original state in Paradise then, death is unnatural, the same way that sin is unnatural. Death emanated from sin. Repented and cleansed from sin, man does not consider death annihilation, but the gate to life eternal. If, at times, the righteous prayed to God to prolong their earthly life, that was not because of love for this life nor because of the fear of death but solely that they would gain more time for repentance and cleansing from sin in order that they may present themselves before God, more sinless and more pure. Even if they showed fear before death, that was not out of fear of death but the fear of God's judgment. What kind of fear then must the unrepentant sinner have before death?
CONTEMPLATION
To contemplate the Ascension of the Lord Jesus:
1. How all the gravitational forces on earth were unable to keep down the body of the Lord from ascending;
2. How by his ascension, the Lord showed Himself to be above the laws of nature.
HOMILY
About the illumination of Christ
"Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light" (Ephesians 5:14).
Saint Paul the apostle, similar to all the other apostles and Christian saints, whatever he teaches to others, he teaches from his own personal experience. For the Faith of Christ is an experience and proof and not a theory of human sophistry. Even Paul lay as one spiritually dormant and, he was spiritually dead while he opposed the Christian Faith. St. Paul was awakened, arose, resurrected in the spirit and was illumined by Christ. He knows himself from the time when he was spiritually dormant and from the time when he became awakened, and when he arose, and when he was resurrected by the Spirit and when he was illumined by Christ. That which he knows about himself as a Christian, he commends to others. As an apostle, he sees himself in a great light and believes that all other men, if they so desire, can be as bright as he is. The light is not his, but Christ's light. His is only the love for that Light, Who is Christ.
The illumination of Christ is necessary for man in the beginning as well as in the end. For without Christ's illumination man is unable either to awaken, or to arise, or to resurrect from the dead, as afterwards, he is unable to live alone by himself in faith or to die in hope. Christ is needed in the beginning as well as in the end. As to a drowning child the hand of the parent is needed to retrieve him from the water and afterward to lead him on dry land, protecting him and preventing him from drowning again; thus Christ is needed for those drowning in the waters of sin. The apostle himself received the illumination of Christ in the beginning on the road to Damascus and, again, he received it later. The first illumination was his conversion to Christ and the second illumination was the confirmation of himself in Christ. The first illumination we all receive through baptism and later, through faith, and the fulfilling of the commandments of the Lord. All of those who do not possess the illumination of Christ, either they have had it and lost it, are dormant as though dead.
O gentle Lord, awaken us, uplift us, resurrect us, for we cannot do any of these things without You.
Return to The Prologue from Ohrid Dialog Page

Lisa*Lisa said:

I'm not a fan of Peter. He was so prejudiced against women it's ridiculous. He obviously had a personal problem with women, so I don't accept that as part of God's plan.

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Um...the point was that the Gospel of Thomas is not part of the Bible, not about Peter...

If we attend to the liturgy of the Church, the entire Gospel and all of the epistles, the entire OT and the psalms will be read, chanted and sung to us. No need to (attempt) to learn the bible 'by ourselves'. The given meaing to all the NT scripture is buried in the liturgy of the Church communities that wrote them and used them.

First and foremost, when a new catechumen approaches the Churches, they are told that Christ God 'revealed' these things.

What these Churches offer to us is 'what was given'. That is what obdience to ordination means. Those that have laid their hands upon you, trust in your ablity to carry and teach the 'given' meaning, as you have been trained. We should seek out those who are have truely been ordained in this way by the original communities. It's all in the 'hands on' training and willingness to live a Godly and sober life.

Forgive me...

Lisa*Lisa said:

Yea, I meant Paul. He really hated women as far as I'm concerned.

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If I told you what the Church teaches on that part of scripture you may feel better.

Got kids?

Forgive me...

The instruction for women to keep quiet was written to that specific church, because you had women (who were traditionally NOT taught anything about Scripture) shouting questions to their husbands across the room (because traditionally, women and men sat on opposite sides of the room). Paul is just telling them to be respectful in church, and ask their husbands questions at home. So Paul is not so much attacking women here, as concerned about respect and order in church. And note, he doesn't say "women shouldn't be taught anything" - which is what he would have said if he were following the tradition of his elders.

As for covering their heads - in the world of that day, NOT covering your head meant you were a prostitute and were just calling attention to yourself. Again, concern for order. (And personally, I'd rather wear a headscarf in church...but it isn't the custom in western churches anymore )

Lisa*Lisa said:

I have one 20 year old daughter. No small children anymore, THANK GOD!!!!!!!!!!!

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I have three... the youngest is 17 and off to college while living in the house with us. His older sisters (twins but nothing alike!) are married.

When the girls were little they fought constantly.

Imagine your self as my wife... 1st century... standing in the back of the room (with all the screaming kids, our two four year old twins leading the way) with all the other mothers as all the men keep pushing closer and closer to be able to hear what St. Paul is saying.

One after another, being frustrated by not being able to hear him themselves the women begin asking 'what did he say?'....

St. Paul asked them to ask their husbands when they got home. He would explain it all to them... this was the regular request anyway... new believers were compelled to spread the gospel through their families and friends... a true 'grass roots' movement.

Was their another incident in 'true scripture' that bothers you?

Or... perhaps it's that the Church does not ordain women that bothers you?

Forgive me...