Why reject the "divine right" of Kings?

[JM]

What are your reasons for rejecting or accepting monarchical governace?

Thank you

 

[BryanW92]

What are your reasons for rejecting or accepting monarchical governace?

Thank you

It's an outdated form of government.

 

[hedrick]

What are your reasons for rejecting or accepting monarchical governace?

Thank you

Judges 9:8 ff.

Perhaps there was no better alternative to a king available to Israel at that point, but it certainly doesn't look like this is God's ideal form of government.

 

[JM]

Is there any form of biblical government? Is majority rule over the minority "divine?"

 

[BryanW92]

Is there any form of biblical government? Is majority rule over the minority "divine?"

What does "biblical government" mean? If you mean "forms of government found in the bible", then there are plenty. If you mean some perfect form of government ordained by God to be the way that humans should live, then the answer is no.

No form of government works perfectly when you have more than one human involved.

 

[Inkfingers]

Is majority rule over the minority "divine?"

There is nothing godly in rule by the majority.

 

[hedrick]

What does "biblical government" mean? If you mean "forms of government found in the bible", then there are plenty. If you mean some perfect form of government ordained by God to be the way that humans should live, then the answer is no.

No form of government works perfectly when you have more than one human involved.

I would agree. Reformed theology would argue that government needs to be carefully limited to avoid the tendency to tyranny that come with original sin, but I doubt there's a specific Biblical form of government.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

What are your reasons for rejecting or accepting monarchical governace?

Thank you

First off because it is an oxymoron: Governments do not have 'rights' they have powers.

Individuals have rights given by God. A Monarch has powers and rights given by God.

Second off, as Hedrick and others have already stated, no governmental form is perfect if administered by fallen man. Government should be limited to the Sine Qua Non of society.

 

[gord44]

I don't think there is a godly forum of government. In theory, I believe the closest based on the Gospels and the book of Acts would be communism, but history has shown us that it is a path that has been a failure in the hands of men.

 

[JM]

One thing that has become increasingly apparent to me is the cultural and historical elements in our theology. I spend much of my time reading 17th century works, most Puritan, and the ideas expressed in this thread would not have been considered "biblical." That doesn't mean they are not...just that culture and history affect us in subtle ways we may not know of. I would say that historically Protestants believed in the Divine Right of Kings to rule. Could we be seriously mistaken, influenced by Enlightenment ideas as interpreted by the "American Experiment?" I think we are.

I'm not arguing for the instalment of Kings by the way and consider myself a small "L" libertarian but I do see a knee jerk reaction against Kings that is not found in church history before the Enlightenment. I have several friends that are monarchists, some of them Presbyterian, while others are just Canadian, who went all out at the Queens Jubilee. Where I'm from the Queen is still thought to be "our" Queen even if she is just a figure head of the Dominion.

Typing on an iPad and will end here.

Yours in the Lord,

JM

 

[JM]

What I mean by historically Prots upheld the monarchy:

Quote: Canada is a constitutional monarchy. Since 1534, when the King of France claimed possession of what is now Canada, the history of our country has been marked by the reigns of an uninterrupted succession of monarchs, both French and British, who have had a significant influence on our country's development.

Under the Crown, Canada developed first as a colony of two empires, originally the French and subsequently the British, then as an independent dominion, and now as an entirely sovereign nation. The Crown occupies a central place in our Parliament and our democracy, founded on the rule of law and respect for rights and freedoms; the Crown embodies the continuity of the state and is the underlying principle of its institutional unity. The Crown is fused to all three branches of government. The Prime Minister, as head of the executive branch, is the Governor General's principal advisor; the Crown is also a constituent element of Parliament, with the Senate and the House of Commons; and finally, all decisions made by the courts are given in the Crown's name.

The most important characteristic of Canada's constitutional monarchy has been its ability to adapt to changing conditions over the course of our evolution from colony to nation. In the Senate Foyer and the Salon de la Francophonie hang the portraits of the kings and queens in whose names our laws have been, and continue to be, enacted.

Canada ? A Constitutional Monarchy

The Case for the Crown

Yours,

jm

 

[gord44]

Would not the Queen technically be the 'executive'? Constitutional Monarchies had the monarch as the 'Head of State' and executive while the Prime Minister is the 'Head of Government'. Of course the Queen has no power today, but is technically still the executive? And the PM's role as advisor is what gives him the true executive power?

 

[JM]

gordy ma boi, I don’t know the answer.

I just see a disconnect between the first wave of Reformation that supported the King, the second/third wave that executed the King (both were Cromwell’s) and the church today. Some may argue that, by nature of the office King is best at restraining evil and uniting a people due to the conservative nature of his role as King. He would naturally want to perpetuate his office as such. Many Protestants believed that, as long as the King is subject to natural divine law (Lex Rex), the rule of a monarchy and parliament suits the church best. I don’t believe we can ever have a perfect government, best we can do is restrain sinful men and government from overreaching. I bring it up because a co-worker mentioned the other day how her family were strong supporters of the Orange Order. The Orange Order in Canada was instrumental in the forming of our nation so I started to into what they believe.

Ever notice how Catholicism and Socialism seem to go hand in hand?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[gord44]

I haven't heard of the Orange Order. I'll read up on them.

Religion and government is really an in depth and fascinating subject. I play a lot of political strategy games. Recently in one game I created a communist Netherlands with the ruling party a bunch of Calvinists. In another game a reborn Russian Empire with a crazy tzar and a Orthodox priest as Prime Mininster to keep the people happy.

Good thread. Two enthusiastic thumbs up.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Ever notice how Catholicism and Socialism seem to go hand in hand?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

What i have noticed as of late is that many individuals within Traditionalist Catholic groups such as the Society for St. Pius X have strong monarchist tendencies.

Funny how that works out.

 

[JM]

What i have noticed as of late is that many individuals within Traditionalist Catholic groups such as the Society for St. Pius X have strong monarchist tendencies.

Funny how that works out.

Huh. I'd like to study up on it. Any further reading information you have read and would suggest?

As for the Socialism and RC ties, one needs to look no further than Liberation theology, Spain, Italy, France, all of South America, etc.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[gord44]

As for the Socialism and RC ties, one needs to look no further than Liberation theology, Spain, Italy, France, all of South America, etc.

Liberation theology is frowned upon by the Vatican. It's the reason why Arch Bishop Romero's sainthood has been tied up in red tape for so long as he was involved in it. Not sure how a true spiritual leader in some of those central and south American countries couldn't be to be honest, especially in that era.

 

[JM]

Liberation theology is frowned upon by the Vatican. It's the reason why Arch Bishop Romero's sainthood has been tied up in red tape for so long as he was involved in it. Not sure how a true spiritual leader in some of those central and south American countries couldn't be to be honest, especially in that era.

Gordy, I understand the official stance of the Vatican against Communism and large “L” Socialism but consider the leanings of the current Pope toward European styled Socialism. I understand the sources are contra Romanism but sort through it and you’ll see what I mean.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/3/14/a_social_conservative_pope_francis_led
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/10559802/Liberation-Theology-is-back-as-Pope-Francis-holds-capitalism-to-account.html

Roman Catholic Europe rejected a monarchy and seems to have accepted Socialism in its many forms. Hitler (National Socialist German Workers' Party), Francisco Solis, etc. I would also like to point out how Roman Catholicism has a history of bringing into its theology pagan philosophy. Aristotle/Scholasticism, Platonism, current aspects of Charismatic theology, evolution on a much smaller scale, etc. People seem to believe what is stated officially by Roman Catholics today can be altered tomorrow and what is stated is not necessarily believed.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[JM]

I submitted an application to the Orange Order just now for further information about the order and membership. It is often listed as a secret society but not always.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[abacabb3]

God has ordained all government. Ironically, passages luke Rom 13 were addressing a tyrannical autocratic government that persecuted Christians. So I think it is impossible to argue that monarchy or any tyranny is unbiblical. The kingdom we belong to is not of this world, the world itself is in the clutches of Satan (eph 2:2.) so, the Church is God's true kingdom/government, all earthly governments ultimately are satanic. No wonder in 1 sam 8 the institution of moncarchic theocracy , which we view as "perfect" was in fact a curse.