Why people hate Calvinism so much?

JM · Mar 14, 2014

I hope so....

gord44 · Mar 14, 2014

cubanito said:
In my very limited experience, one of the main reasons that many people hate Calvinism is because so many Reformed are jerks.

When I was a Calvinist I know I was a jerk. I would go on about how I am worthless and nothing without Christ yet really feel empowered to feel good about my faith and defend it. I figured out though that my ego (egos are a sneaky) had simply spread from my view of myself to my theology and faith. So in essence while i was righteously spouting my beliefs about Christ I was in fact just shining my own ego, all while thinking I was being humble.

Not saying at all this is the norm, but it's common. That said I know some very humble Calvinists who don't use their theology as a path to be a 'God ordained' jerk.

JM · Mar 14, 2014

Gord, I never thought you were a jerk when you professed Calvinism.

-------------

I noticed new concerts are zealous which places a mark on their backs. They tell everyone about the Gospel which has been stigmatized by the name "Calvinism." Calvinism seems obvious to us so we begin to develop an apologetic. The Calvinist quickly realizes the non-Calvinist has a different worldview which causes frustration when handling objections to the freeness of the Gospel and the sovereignty of God in all things.

There is nothing more arrogant than claiming YOU are the master of YOUR fate, the captain of YOUR destiny, that God's plan of redemption depends on YOU, YOUR whims, desires, decisions and choices.

cubanito · Mar 14, 2014

When discussing Calvinism, you need to sort out certain categories. While y'all are free to set up your own categories, I offer these 3:

A- TULIP, which may be called Augustinian, including the view of that most irritating of Augustinian monks, Luther. This is basically the emphasis on predestination. I like to subdivide them into 3 flavors, like neutrinos:
1- Single Predestination
2- Double Predestination
3- Triple predestianation, like me (least common)

B- Sacramental issues
1- Baptism
a- Child (Paedobaptism)
b- Believer (Credobaptism)
c- Let each believing family decide, as the Scriptures are not clear. (least common)
2- Passover
a- Lutheran mystery (at least a mystery to me, "consubstantiation")
b- Calvin "real Presence"
c- Zwinglian, just a rememberance
3- Shabbat
a- Sunday
b- Saturday
c- The whole thing was repealed, but if you really want it, start Friday sundown (again, least common)
C- Hermeneutics
1- Covenant Theology then 200 years later...
2- Dispensationalism then 200 years later...
3- New Covenant Theology then 200 years later...(least common and youngest)

As can be expected, given my rebellious nature, I hold to the least common of each of the above, and I can't decide at all between the 3 passover (communion) types at all.

People here sometimes think all these categories are one big group. Oh, and the Reformed Baptist, oh and then John McArthur the Dispy Reformed, oh and then...

When you guys say Calvinist, make up your mind what that all entails, and you will see people dropping out here and there.

Frankly, I chuckle when I see "Semper Reformanda." Many people here have not reformed a single basic idea since the Institutes were finalized. Little wonder the perjorative "FROZEN chosen" sticks.

JR

JM · Mar 14, 2014

...and let's not confuse "reform of the church" with "evolving into something else." What many folks believe is reform is really a de-formation of scriptural princples influenced by society. The slogan "always reforming" means we are always returning to scripture, renewing our minds by scripture, but not deforming into something else, away from the word recovered during the great reformations in church history.

The crack about Dispensationalism was meant to be sarcasm.

cubanito · Mar 14, 2014

Certainly, and the reformers did a huge work removing the crud of 1500 years of power grabs by the clergy to obfuscate the Scriptures. Yet while being grateful to these saintly giants like Calvin, I do not think they got everything right. When someone who is arguing their point of view "sola Scriptura" is making a case about where Calvin went wrong, they should not be viciously attacked, especially on a personal level. Yet I have experienced that by most Reformed folk, both on this board and elsewhere.

The OP asked why Calvinism is hated. I fully agree that Augustinian doctrine inflames the natural man's hatred by challenging their "right" and ability to self-determination. It is part of our desire to be our own god, just like in the garden. That is part of it, and I also agree with many other things said here, like the belief by some (not me) that Calvinism attributes either evil, or at best a really nasty disposition to God. Then there are historical things like how Calvinists sometimes abused power and so on. All these are true.

However, as someone who fully believes TULIP, that while not air-tight, infant baptism is the strongest Biblical view and many other things; I have experienced a level of vitriol from those who hold to full Covenant Theology for my different views of the Scripture that is sad. It is ridiculous that the PC-USA with it's severe de-formation of Scripture is treated better than say a Southern Baptist dispensationalist. Really, if there is not even Biblical inerrancy, who cares about "sola Scriptura," paedobaptism or Covenant Theology? Throw out Biblical authority and it's whatever some lesbian bishop says today we should follow.

Guys, and any gals, take stock of who your friends are and stop savaging them for intra-mural debates.

JR

gord44 · Mar 14, 2014

JM said:
Gord, I never thought you were a jerk when you professed Calvinism.

Hehe. It was more in person.

The Calvinist quickly realizes the non-Calvinist has a different worldview which causes frustration when handling objections to the freeness of the Gospel and the sovereignty of God in all things.

One should avoid getting frustrated by others beliefs. Leads nowhere. When one sees what they consider falsehood they should be a stick on the water, floating over the frustration instead of being the big stick that the water crashes over causing discomfort.

There is nothing more arrogant than claiming YOU are the master of YOUR fate, the captain of YOUR destiny, that God's plan of redemption depends on YOU, YOUR whims, desires, decisions and choices.

We are all just waves on an ocean. I take my fate, destiny and God's plan as it comes. No need to be a master or captain. We all crash back into the sea in the end.

-----------------------------------------------

What you sipping on lately? Dark Horse I think is my favourite whiskey now. I sip more often then scotch lately!

JM · Mar 14, 2014

The frustration comes from answering the same objections over and over again. Like a free will gadfly that buzzing around you head, "but, but, but" over and over. It drives you nuts. It really is an issue of worldviews.

I've been on a rye kick, as you know, for months. I bought a bottle of Teachers Highland Cream to reaffirm my commitment to God, King (Jesus), Clan & country.

JustAsIam77 · Mar 14, 2014

cubanito said:
JustAs-as-you-are77, have you also experienced hostility from those holding Covenant Theology as well?

JR

Not really, I think there is someone else that may have, perhaps it was Deacon Dean, you will find most everyone here non confrontational regarding Dispy's if you're leaning that way. I didn't quite fit in the other forums because I'm a Calvinist but I still have Dispensational leanings.

JM and Twin are a treasure trove of scriptural knowledge and every so often AMR posts with some outstanding exegesis of scripture.

I only meant when I said you will get no argument from me that you are welcome on this forum and I hope you continue to post here.

saintboniface · Mar 16, 2014

gordRedeemed said:
When I was a Calvinist I know I was a jerk. I would go on about how I am worthless and nothing without Christ yet really feel empowered to feel good about my faith and defend it. I figured out though that my ego (egos are a sneaky) had simply spread from my view of myself to my theology and faith. So in essence while i was righteously spouting my beliefs about Christ I was in fact just shining my own ego, all while thinking I was being humble.

Not saying at all this is the norm, but it's common. That said I know some very humble Calvinists who don't use their theology as a path to be a 'God ordained' jerk.

Wow, what a perfectly worded post. When I first saw this thread this was the point I wanted to make. I couldn't figure out exactly how to say it. You absolutely nailed it!

saintboniface · Mar 16, 2014

lesliedellow said:
I seem to know more about Catholic doctrine than you, because, unusually for the Catholic Church, it doesn't lay down the law on the subject. Catholics are free to follow either the teachings of either Aquinas or Molina - although the latter is regarded as preferable.

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;
Cf. Council of Orange II (529)S 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567.

stenerson · Mar 23, 2014

saintboniface said:
I don't believe God predestines anyone to Hell. When I say predestine I mean predetermine. That is, God allows men to freely choose Hell. If that makes me an Arminian so be it. I don't think it is arrogant to be working out one's salvation with fear and trembling. Not knowing whether one will have eternal life or not is not arrogant.

Sorry, I assumed at first you were a Arminian protestant and that the security of your salvation was not the issue.
As for working out your salvation with fear and trembling finish the verse which says "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

saintboniface · Mar 23, 2014

stenerson said:
Sorry, I assumed at first you were a Arminian protestant and that the security of your salvation was not the issue.
As for working out your salvation with fear and trembling finish the verse which says "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

As a side note, what denominations would constitute Arminian?

twin1954 · Mar 23, 2014

saintboniface said:
As a side note, what denominations would constitute Arminian?

All of them. Arminianism isn't a denominational thing it is a doctrinal stance. It is found among all denominations.

stenerson · Mar 23, 2014

saintboniface said:
As a side note, what denominations would constitute Arminian?

Arminian is just a general term for a synergistic view of salvation..Those that don't hold to the biblical view of grace, election, predestination.. It's based on the teachings of Dutch theologian Jacob Arminius...He was supposedly a reformed theologian that rejected the reformed doctrines of grace..
There are Arminians in many denominations.

paul becke · Mar 23, 2014

I wouldn't say I hate Calvinists. I've only encountered them on here. However, I do feel a sense of disgust at the way, week after week, they come on here, seemingly, to gloat to the haplessly 'unchosen'.

That alone should raise big a question in the mind of a reader. Could you imagine Mother Theresa gloating to people that she was 'saved'? Or the Apostle, Paul, for that matter? Did he not say at one point that he was not yet 'saved' - he had not yet finished his race?

Why did Paul bother to endure all those extraordinary trials, if he needn't even have got out of bed in the morning? 'Come and get me God! I'm all yours. Wow! Isn't it great being a no-good lay-bout, and being loved infinitely just for being me?'

Catholic saints have shed tears for those in particular danger of going to hell, and many of us pray for them daily with the Rosary. It could be us, anyway.

Calvinists seem to think it's a reason to celebrate, since seemingly Michael will be rowing the boat to shore with them in it, however they behaved in this life! It's really not good form to scoff at drowning people from a life-boat you were lucky enough to get in.

twin1954 · Mar 23, 2014

paul becke said:
I wouldn't say I hate Calvinists. I've only encountered them on here. However, I do feel a sense of disgust at the way, week after week, they come on here, seemingly, to gloat to the haplessly 'unchosen'.

That alone should raise big a question in the mind of a reader. Could you imagine Mother Theresa gloating to people that she was 'saved'? Or the Apostle, Paul, for that matter? Did he not say at one point that he was not yet 'saved' - he had not yet finished his race?

Why did Paul bother to endure all those extraordinary trials, if he needn't even have got out of bed n the morning? 'Come and get me God! I'm all yours. Wow! Isn't it great being a no-good lay-bout, and being loved infinitely just for being me?

Show me one single Calvinist that gloats the way you claim. Your imagination seems to be working overtime.

stenerson · Mar 23, 2014

paul becke said:
I wouldn't say I hate Calvinists. I've only encountered them on here. However, I do feel a sense of disgust at the way, week after week, they come on here, seemingly, to gloat to the haplessly 'unchosen'.

That alone should raise big a question in the mind of a reader. Could you imagine Mother Theresa gloating to people that she was 'saved'? Or the Apostle, Paul, for that matter? Did he not say at one point that he was not yet 'saved' - he had not yet finished his race?

Why did Paul bother to endure all those extraordinary trials, if he needn't even have got out of bed in the morning? 'Come and get me God! I'm all yours. Wow! Isn't it great being a no-good lay-bout, and being loved infinitely just for being me?'

Catholic saints have shed tears for those in particular danger of going to hell, and many of us pray for them daily with the Rosary. It could be us, anyway.

Calvinists seem to think it's a reason to celebrate, since seemingly Michael will be rowing the boat to shore with them in it, however they behaved in this life! It's really not good form to scoff at drowning people from a life-boat you were lucky enough to get in.

That makes zero sense...What does gloating about being saved(I don't see it here but let's assume it's true) have to do with Calvinism? ..Arminians also believe they are saved.
Sure there are hyper-Arminians "evangelicals" and of course Papists that don't believe in the eternal security of believers. But that's another issue. Are they somehow more humble because they don't believe Christ work of atonement was sufficient to secure them to the end?

saintboniface · Mar 23, 2014

twin1954 said:
All of them. Arminianism isn't a denominational thing it is a doctrinal stance. It is found among all denominations.

So Christian Reformed and Reformed (I think abbreviated CRC and RCA) have members with different doctrinal stances - some members Calvinist and some members Arminian?

stenerson · Mar 23, 2014

saintboniface said:
So Christian Reformed and Reformed (I think abbreviated CRC and RCA) have members with different doctrinal stances - some members Calvinist and some members Arminian?

Not every member of a denomination actually believes and holds to the creeds of their church..

Why people hate Calvinism so much?

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