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It's not an argument for me, I well aware what The Holy Spirit revealed to me about this, so I'm not all that concerned if you or another believes me or not, I'm just providing some food for thought.But in Genesis 1 it says God created all these things in 6 days. And other passages say that He created them from nothing.
“By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.”
Hebrews 11:3 NASB1995
““Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.””
Revelation 4:11 NASB1995
So Exodus 20:11 can’t be referring to reforming what already existed.
Reason and logic have a place. We have eyes. Some say that God's word declares that the earth is flat and covered in a dome. That is absurd, but that does not stop people ignoring all the physical evidence to the contrary. Like many, I assumed that Eden was where the Bible says it was when God created the garden. The problem with that assumption is the Flood. No one knows what changed as a result of the Flood.Is it reasonable and logical for a donkey to talk? Is it reasonable and logical for a woman to be instantly turned into a pillar of salt just by looking at something? Is it reasonable and logical for two men to be brought back to life after being dead for 3 days? Is it reasonable and logical for a man to walk on water? Is it reasonable and logical for a plant to wither and die in just a few seconds just because someone told it to? Is it reasonable and logical for a blind man to be healed by rubbing spit & dirt on his eyes? Is the Bible reasonable and logical according to what science teaches us? Is the definition of the word miracle reasonable and logical?
No I didn't ,.... I just don't agree with your interpretation of it. I see that passage saying that GOD reformed the earth in those 6 24 hour days, not created it.
You wasted a whole lot of time on that.In the ancient near east, temple inauguration ceremonies are 7 days long. Consider the following:
This is what the Lord says: “Heaven is My throne and the earth is the footstool for My feet. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?
Isaiah 66:1
The place where God rests, on the 7th day, is heaven and earth, on His throne, with His footstool. The house being referred to is His temple.
Genesis is describing a divine cosmic temple. God's temple and it's creation.
The Lord is in His holy temple; the Lord’s throne is in heaven; His eyes see, His eyelids test the sons of mankind.
Psalms 11:4
“Now then arise, Lord God, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your might; let Your priests, Lord God, be clothed with salvation, and let Your godly ones rejoice in what is good.
2 Chronicles 6:41
Until I find a place for the Lord, A dwelling place for the Mighty One of Jacob.” Let’s go into His dwelling place; Let’s worship at His footstool. Arise, Lord, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength. ¶For the Lord has chosen Zion; He has desired it as His dwelling place. “This is My resting place forever; Here I will dwell, for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:5, 7-8, 13-14
God's resting place is His dwelling place. The place of His footstool, where God rests enthroned. That is, His temple.
And you shall not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting for seven days, until the days of your ordination are completed, for it will take seven days to ordain you.
Leviticus 8:33
temple priest ordination in 7 days.
And in the eleventh year, in the month of Bul, which is the eighth month, the house was finished in all its parts, and according to all its specifications. He was seven years in building it.
1 Kings 6:38
The Temple constructed in 7 years.
And all the men of Israel assembled to King Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month.
1 Kings 8:2
Inauguation feast on the 7th month.
“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, much less this house that I have built!
Hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place; O hear in heaven your dwelling place; hear and forgive.
1 King 8:27
God dwells in His cosmic temple. Where He rests on the throne.
So Solomon held the feast at that time, and all Israel with him, a great assembly, from Lebo-hamath to the Brook of Egypt, before the Lord our God, seven days.
1 Kings 8:65
Temple inauguration feast on the 7th day.
temple dedicated to God on the 7th day of the 7th month, after 7 years, and what does God do?
And I will dwell among the Israelites, and I will not forsake my people Israel.”
1 Kings 6:13
As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple. While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever. And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoring and by the dead bodies of their kings at their high places,
Ezekiel 43:4-7 ESV
God enters the temple on the 7th day, and Rests.
genesis 1 split into 7 days to recognize the action of God taking presence in his temple. Kind of like a ceremony on which God prepares creation for His rulership.
7 stages of construction of the tabernacle:
- In the first month of the second year, on the first of the month, the tabernacle was set up.
1. And Moses raised the tabernacle, and he placed its bases, and he set up its frames, and he placed its bars, and he raised its pillars. And he spread the tent over the tabernacle; he placed the covering of the tent over it, above it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
2. And he took and he put the testimony into the ark, and he placed the poles on the ark, and he put the atonement cover on the ark, above it. And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and he set up the curtain of the screening, and he shielded the ark of the testimony, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
3. And he put the table in the tent of assembly on the north side of the tabernacle outside the curtain. And he arranged on it an arrangement of bread before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
4. And he placed the lampstand in the tent of assembly opposite the table on the south side of the tabernacle. And he set up the lamps before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
5. And he placed the gold altar in the tent of assembly before the curtain. And he turned fragrant incense into smoke on it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
6. And he set up the entrance screen for the tabernacle. And the altar of burnt offering he placed at the entrance of the tabernacle of the tent of assembly, and he offered on it the burnt offering and the grain offering, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
7. And he placed the basin between the tent of assembly and the altar, and he put there water for washing. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet from it. At their going into the tent of assembly and at their approaching the altar, they washed, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
-. And he set up the courtyard all around the tabernacle and the altar, and he put up the screen of the gate of the courtyard, and Moses completed the work.
Exodus 40:17-33 LEB
Let us go to his dwelling places; Let us worship at his footstool. Arise, O Yahweh, to your resting place, you and your mighty ark. For Yahweh has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his habitation. “This is my resting place forever; here I will dwell, for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:7-8, 13-14
God's resting place is His dwelling place. A temple.
and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.
Genesis 2:12
This is the offering that you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze,
Exodus 25:3
onyx stones and gems to be set in the ephod and for the breastpiece.
Exodus 25:7
He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3:24
You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat.
Exodus 25:18
So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.
Genesis 2:3
You shall keep the sabbath, because it is holy for you; everyone who profanes it shall be put to death; whoever does any work on it shall be cut off from among the people.
Exodus 31:14
*God blessed them*, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” *God saw* everything that he had made and, *behold*, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, a sixth day.
Genesis 1:31 LEB
And *Moses saw* all the work, and *behold*, they had done it; as the Lord had commanded, so had they done it. Then *Moses blessed them*.
Exodus 39:43 ESV
Here we see the garden of Eden describes similarly to the tabernacle, a temple.
The Hebrew word ‘abad (עבד) can be translated as “to work,” “to serve,” or “to worship.” It is a common verb and is often used for cultivating the soil (Genesis 2:5, 3:23, 4:2,12). However, the word is also commonly used in a religious sense of serving God (Deuteronomy 4:19) and in priestly texts, especially regarding the tabernacle duties of the Levites (Numbers 3:7-8, 4:23-24, 4:26).
The second Hebrew word, translated as “to keep,” is shamar (שמר), which is commonly used for a priestly service of worship, as well as in legal texts of observing religious commands and duties (Leviticus 18:5). The word is also used for the Levitical responsibility of guarding the tabernacle from intruders (Numbers 1:53, 3:7-8)
From Genesis to Exodus to Jesus: What Biblical Typology Might Say about Modern Day Israel
I have often read and taught on the temple-imagery in Genesis 1–2, where the Garden of Eden is portrayed by Moses as the prototypical tabernacle. I have also read and taught how the tabernacl…davidschrock.com
Adam and Eve were given the same jobs as temple priests of leviticus.
And, 7 day temple inaugurations are found in other ancient near east texts too, such as the Baal cycle:
He adorns Her with the covering of Her flesh.
She tears Her clothing.
On the second day
He adorns Her in the two rivers.
She sets a pot on the fire
A vessel on top of the coals.
Behold a day and a second,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame into the palace.
A fifth, a sixth day,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame in the midst of the palace.
Behold, on the seventh day,
The fire departs from the house,
The flame from the palace.
Silver turns from blocks,
Gold is turned from bricks.
baal cycle
See how heaven and earth are described as temples in the ancient near east:
House of the anuna gods possessing great power, which gives wisdom to the people, house, reposeful dwelling of the great gods! House, which was planned together with a plans of heaven and Earth. House which underpins the Land and supports the shrines! -Sumerian Temple Hymn of Kes.
When Anu, Enlil, and Ea had a first idea of heaven and Earth, that they found a wise means of providing support for the gods: They prepared, in the land, a pleasant dwelling. And the gods were installed in this dwelling: their principal Temple. Then they entrusted to the king the responsibility of assuring them their regular choice offerings. and for the feast of the gods, they established the required food offering! The gods loved this dwelling!
-akkadian prayer, temple dedication.
Gudea, you were building my house for me, and were having The offices perform to perfection for me, You had my house shine for me, like Utu and heaven's midst, separating. Like a lofty foothill range, heaven from Earth.
Knowledge and wisdom are described of those that construct temples:
Solomons Temple:
1 Kings 7:14 NASB
[14] He was a widow’s son from the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, an artisan in bronze; and he was filled with wisdom, skill, and knowledge for doing any work in bronze. So he came to King Solomon and performed all his work.
Proverbs on Genesis:
Proverbs 3:19-20 NASB
[19] The Lord founded the earth by wisdom, He established the heavens by understanding. [20] By His knowledge the ocean depths were burst open, And the clouds drip with dew.
The Tabernacle:
Exodus 31:1-3 NASB
[1] Now the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, [2] “See, I have called by name Bezalel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. [3] And I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship,
Pre-creation is described as "all the world was sea":
No holy house, no house of the gods, had been built in a pure place;
No reed had come forth, no tree had been created;
No brick had been laid, no brickmold had been created;
No house bad been built; no city had been created;
No city had been built, no settlement had been founded;
Nippur had not been built, Ekur had not been created;
The depths had not been built, Eridu had not been created;
No holy house, no house of the gods, no dwelling for them had been created.
All the world was sea,
The spring in the midst of the sea was only a channel,
Then was Eridu built, Esagila (temple) was created.
-Ancient near east hymn
In short, the reason Genesis describes a 7 day creation is because it's describing a temple inauguration. And that's why God rests on His throne, in the temple, on the 7th day.
@didactics in case you're interested as well.
All I’m saying is that OEC is contradictory to what is written in the scriptures and the evidence that the earth is older than 6000 years old is based on assumptions. The dating methods are not reliable because they don’t actually have any data at all about how much c14 was in the atmosphere 6000 years ago or how much radiation these materials they’ve been testing possessed 6000 years ago. Their information is based on what we see now, not what was actually true 6000 years ago.Reason and logic have a place. We have eyes. Some say that God's word declares that the earth is flat and covered in a dome. That is absurd, but that does not stop people ignoring all the physical evidence to the contrary. Like many, I assumed that Eden was where the Bible says it was when God created the garden. The problem with that assumption is the Flood. No one knows what changed as a result of the Flood.
The reality is that there is a fossil record with vast numbers of different creatures no longer seen today. There is an explanation that God's word supports. I don't accept that YEC can answer the question satisfactorily.
I don't think anyone is looking at any of the dating methods, they can be somewhat accurate to somewhat off base.All I’m saying is that OEC is contradictory to what is written in the scriptures and the evidence that the earth is older than 6000 years old is based on assumptions. The dating methods are not reliable because they don’t actually have any data at all about how much c14 was in the atmosphere 6000 years ago or how much radiation these materials they’ve been testing possessed 6000 years ago. Their information is based on what we see now, not what was actually true 6000 years ago.
Ok, but how do you know how old those remains are?I don't think anyone is looking at any of the dating methods, they can be somewhat accurate to somewhat off base.
What I looked at was the material evidence from the past. There was this whole thriving plant and animal life structure upon this earth that just up and disappeared at some point. Was completely wiped out with only fossils left behind to tell any story.
For me to believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old, I have to outright ignore and disbelieve any of that material evidence even exists,...... and I just can't do that. It would make no sense whatsoever for me to do such a thing.
You wasted a whole lot of time on that.
What is your counter?
Isaiah 66;1-2 says it quite clearly. Heaven and Earth is God's temple.
We know in the Bible that temple inaugurations occur over 7 days, just as with Solomons temple, as noted above. And it's the same in ancient near east temple inauguration texts in which heaven and earth are described as temples.
And when God rests in the Bible, God rests on a throne. And thrones of course are in...in the Bible, God's temple throne room.
And not only that, but in the ancient Near East when temples are constructed, upon completion, rest occurs. That's what all gods do when their temples are completed. Such as in the caananite Baal cycle. They rest up on completing their temple. And the Baal cycle even has a temple constructed in 7 days.
Anyone who has ever spent any time at all studying Genesis knows that it has countless parallels to the tabernacle, Solomon's Temple, and the various arks, the ark of the covenant, Noah's ark and Moses' ark.
Quite simply, the reason Genesis unfolds over 7 days is because that's the time period in which temples are inaugurated. And Genesis of course, is describing God's temple. Heaven and Earth.
That's exactly why, I would recommend considering the non-concordist approach to understanding scripture:I don't think anyone is looking at any of the dating methods, they can be somewhat accurate to somewhat off base.
What I looked at was the material evidence from the past. There was this whole thriving plant and animal life structure upon this earth that just up and disappeared at some point. Was completely wiped out with only fossils left behind to tell any story.
For me to believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old, I have to outright ignore and disbelieve any of that material evidence even exists,...... and I just can't do that. It would make no sense whatsoever for me to do such a thing.
Again,.. it's not really about the age of these things with me. Yea I know that this stuff is really old.Ok, but how do you know how old those remains are?
Old Earth is consistent with the scriptures. You don't have to believe it, but people who do are not heretics. I agree that dating methods are flawed and based on unprovable assumptions. I don't agree with billions of years for the age of the earth. But I am convinced that there was a creation "in the beginning" that became formless and empty.All I’m saying is that OEC is contradictory to what is written in the scriptures and the evidence that the earth is older than 6000 years old is based on assumptions. The dating methods are not reliable because they don’t actually have any data at all about how much c14 was in the atmosphere 6000 years ago or how much radiation these materials they’ve been testing possessed 6000 years ago. Their information is based on what we see now, not what was actually true 6000 years ago.
When you look only at Genesis it is possible to come to that interpretation until you get to the genealogy records and Exodus 20:11 then the idea of OEC falls apart. OEC contradicts the genealogies recorded in the scriptures and Exodus 20:11.Old Earth is consistent with the scriptures. You don't have to believe it, but people who do are not heretics. I agree that dating methods are flawed and based on unprovable assumptions. I don't agree with billions of years for the age of the earth. But I am convinced that there was a creation "in the beginning" that became formless and empty.
OE creationism doesn't work because if OE was in fact the case then you'd have to admit that the devil and his fallen angels and demons are all billions of years old.
Would God really allow his nemesis to live for billions of years? I don't think so.
And what would the devil have been doing for all those years? Tempting monkeys to sin? makes no sense!
but ultimately science has little to do (nothing really) with whether or not Jesus died for our sins and rose again.
It's not worth fussing about. I don't agree with your understanding. That's all.When you look only at Genesis it is possible to come to that interpretation until you get to the genealogy records and Exodus 20:11 then the idea of OEC falls apart. OEC contradicts the genealogies recorded in the scriptures and Exodus 20:11.
Well the topic of this thread is about when the earth was created, not faith or salvation. So on this particular subject Genesis is absolutely relevant to the discussion. What I often see on this topic is people will claim that evolution or OEC doesn’t contradict the scriptures then they refuse to discuss them when the verses that prove them wrong are presented. I mean if people are going to make such statements and they actually know how their interpretation of the scripture isn’t contradictory then they should present that evidence otherwise there’s no point in engaging in the discussion on this particular topic in the first place.This. Not going to post much in this area of the forums, but I want to say one thing. Our religion is about faith. its about faith in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. It is not about faith in a literal interpretation of Genesis else you will go to hell. We get to all agree or disagree on that.
The scriptures do not say when the earth was created ex nihilo. Rather they only describe when creation began ex materia.Well the topic of this thread is about when the earth was created, not faith or salvation. So on this particular subject Genesis is absolutely relevant to the discussion. What I often see on this topic is people will claim that evolution or OEC doesn’t contradict the scriptures then they refuse to discuss them when the verses that prove them wrong are presented. I mean if people are going to make such statements and they actually know how their interpretation of the scripture isn’t contradictory then they should present that evidence otherwise there’s no point in engaging in the discussion on this particular topic in the first place.
The geneologies are irrelevant to the age of the earth because Genesis doesn't say how long the earth was formless and void prior to creation.When you look only at Genesis it is possible to come to that interpretation until you get to the genealogy records and Exodus 20:11 then the idea of OEC falls apart. OEC contradicts the genealogies recorded in the scriptures and Exodus 20:11.
I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed.The scriptures do not say when the earth was created ex nihilo. Rather they only describe when creation began ex materia.
And this is just a simple fact of scripture that bara does not refer to ex nihilo creation.
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