Why Not Bypass Earth?

CoderHead · Aug 24, 2009

This has had me wondering for a long, long time and I haven't really found an answer that satisfies my question.

The short version:
Why doesn't God simply create our souls in Heaven, bypassing the sin of Earth and punishment of Hell?

The long version:
God creates us because He loves us and wants to have a relationship with us, which - with our obedience and faith - ends with us worshiping in His presence in Heaven. This being His goal, why not skip over all of the turmoil, sin, forgiveness, sacrifice, and pain in this temporal existence and just create our souls in Heaven where He ultimately wants us to be? Is there any benefit whatsoever in putting us on Earth for ~80 years where we can totally screw things up and jeopardize our eternal life? And if we just popped into existence in Heaven with no intermediate steps, wouldn't we both (humans and God) be better off for it?

I suppose where this really stems from is my disbelief that an all-loving, perfect God would go through such a painful and inefficient process for arriving at a goal that would be so much easier to attain with fewer moving parts and less margin of error. It makes zero sense.

Van · Aug 24, 2009

Yet another oft restated question. Why did God do it the way He did it, and not some other way that makes more sense to ME! And for the umpteenth time, God created us with the capacity to choose God or not, in order that when a person makes that autonomous choice, they bring glory to God. Otherwise we would be sorta like a pull string doll that says "I love you."

Markus6 · Aug 24, 2009

God created the Earth and said it was good and created us to live in it. Our final destination is not heaven. God will create a new heavens and a new earth and the New Jerusalem will descend from heaven to be our inheritance (an image from the book of Revelation). I'd really recommend Surprised by Hope by N.T. Wright which talks about this much better than I could.

Once we see things from this perspective we realise God did create us (not just souls) in paradise in Eden. He also gave us a choice. I think this was because paradise isn't paradise to live in unless you choose to be there. Humanity chose to leave and Jesus came to give us the chance to return to the garden where God will walk among us.

CoderHead · Aug 24, 2009

Van said:
Why did God do it the way He did it, and not some other way that makes more sense to ME!

That's all we really have, isn't it? I obviously cannot understand the way God's mind works or else I'd say, "Gee, putting us on Earth and giving us the opportunity to damn ourselves to Hell for eternity is such a great idea!" Retract those claws. I did a search before I posted this and didn't find an existing thread.

Van said:
And for the umpteenth time

Not for me, it's not. If you don't like it, ignore it.

Van said:
God created us with the capacity to choose God or not, in order that when a person makes that autonomous choice, they bring glory to God. Otherwise we would be sorta like a pull string doll that says "I love you."

I understand the free will statement. What I don't understand is why all of this is necessary. God doesn't have low self-esteem, does He? You'd think that having all of our souls in Heaven with Him would suffice.

Furthermore, if He had only created two human souls to fellowship with Him in Heaven, He could have stopped there. As it stands now, there are probably more souls in Hell than there are in Heaven. Doesn't that rub Him the wrong way? He's supposed to love us.

As for free will, do you continue to have free will after you die and go to Heaven? What if, after a thousand years, you decide you don't want to be there anymore? How does that work? If you can't choose to leave, aren't you no more than a pull string doll saying, "Praise be to God" for eternity?

CoderHead · Aug 24, 2009

Markus6 said:
Our final destination is not heaven. God will create a new heavens and a new earth and the New Jerusalem will descend from heaven to be our inheritance (an image from the book of Revelation).

I think this was because paradise isn't paradise to live in unless you choose to be there.

So where does it stop? God creates a new Heaven and new Earth and puts us there to live in bliss for eternity...but what if we don't? Will there be no form of temptation whatsoever in this new realm? Will there be no such thing as sin? Wasn't that the failed experiment in the Garden of Eden?

The free will argument is used so often, I just have to wonder if we have free will now, or if we have free will forever? Wouldn't it be possible for someone to get to Heaven and decide it wasn't actually what they thought it was? It sounds like Lucifer did...?

98cwitr · Aug 24, 2009

something I have often pondered and havent found an answer for either :/

To answer the side question though, I feel that we will have free will forever given a static location (either heaven or hell) based on our choice. Ultimately, we are the ones to choose our fate, condemning ourselves or saving it by choice. Just as Lucifer was an angel who chose to renounce God in heaven, so other angels and our souls have the choice as well...but in fully knowing...why would a spirit choose to do so is the better question God forgive and God bless...

pgp_protector · Aug 24, 2009

Van said:
Yet another oft restated question. Why did God do it the way He did it, and not some other way that makes more sense to ME! And for the umpteenth time, God created us with the capacity to choose God or not, in order that when a person makes that autonomous choice, they bring glory to God. Otherwise we would be sorta like a pull string doll that says "I love you."

True, God already has those.

Revelation said:
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."

Markus6 · Aug 24, 2009

CoderHead said:
So where does it stop? God creates a new Heaven and new Earth and puts us there to live in bliss for eternity...but what if we don't? Will there be no form of temptation whatsoever in this new realm? Will there be no such thing as sin? Wasn't that the failed experiment in the Garden of Eden?

The free will argument is used so often, I just have to wonder if we have free will now, or if we have free will forever? Wouldn't it be possible for someone to get to Heaven and decide it wasn't actually what they thought it was? It sounds like Lucifer did...?

There was no sin in the garden, just one out - the fruit. My take is that Adam and Eve wanted to experience the alternative to life with God walking among them. Once the resurrection happens and we're living in the new creation (notice I'm not saying heaven, I don't think that's accurate) we'll have experienced the alternative and chosen life with God. No worry of us changing our minds.

CoderHead · Aug 24, 2009

98cwitr said:
something I have often pondered and havent found an answer for either

If you don't mind me asking - since you're a Christian - do you find the "so that we can make a choice and give glory to God" answer compelling?

98cwitr said:
To answer the side question though, I feel that we will have free will forever given a static location (either heaven or hell) based on our choice. Ultimately, we are the ones to choose our fate, condemning ourselves or saving it by choice.

I suppose one of my issues is whether or not it's actually our fate. I mean, if we have free will forever, and free will got us in trouble this time around, couldn't it get us into trouble again? What's stopping us from deserving death a second time around? Do you see my dilemma?

98cwitr said:
but in fully knowing...why would a spirit choose to do so is the better question

I don't know, really. I just ponder the possibility of spending eternity (not just a million years; eternity) doing nothing but praising God and I can't help but think that would be the most boring existence ever. I know other people don't...it's just me trying to wrap my brain around it. I don't like that thought. It sounds like prison, but instead of a life sentence, it's forever.

pgp_protector · Aug 24, 2009

Markus6 said:
There was no sin in the garden, just one out - the fruit. My take is that Adam and Eve wanted to experience the alternative to life with God walking among them. Once the resurrection happens and we're living in the new creation (notice I'm not saying heaven, I don't think that's accurate) we'll have experienced the alternative and chosen life with God. No worry of us changing our minds.

Because we won't want to, or won't be able to ?

Markus6 · Aug 24, 2009

pgp_protector said:
Because we won't want to, or won't be able to ?

Won't want to. Looking at the vision of Revelation 21 do you think anyone would choose to come back to this??

CoderHead · Aug 24, 2009

Markus6 said:
There was no sin in the garden, just one out - the fruit. My take is that Adam and Eve wanted to experience the alternative to life with God walking among them.

From reading Genesis, I don't see that at all. God created the two of them without the knowledge of good and evil. So the proposition, "don't eat from that tree" and the ensuing, "go ahead and eat from this tree" presents a huge discrepancy in God's nature for me. If they had no knowledge of good and evil, they couldn't possibly have known it was wrong for them to eat the apple - especially if someone else told them it was OK.

And I don't think there was intent there either. I see no indication that either Adam or Eve desired life outside of the Garden. Rather, it seems they enjoyed walking with Him. It was only after the talking serpent spoke with an air of authority that Eve went, "oh well, I suppose so."

But the free will thing just bugs me...as you may be able to tell.

pgp_protector · Aug 24, 2009

Markus6 said:
Won't want to. Looking at the vision of Revelation 21 do you think anyone would choose to come back to this??

Rev 21 said:
Revelation 21

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

People that like risk & extream sports due to the RISK of injury & pain might not like never having to worry about pain again.

People that like adventure might not want to spend all eternity (after the first few 10000000000000 years, the City might get a bit boring)

People that don't like gaudy (Gold streets, Gates of pearls, foundations of gems, ect) might like a simpler lifestyle. (What's wrong with a dirt road & grass ? )

People that like Astronomy might be sad at never seeing the moon or a dark sky again.

Ect...

Or does God change their personality to Fit heaven (And if so, are they really the same person still ? )

CoderHead · Aug 24, 2009

Markus6 said:
Won't want to. Looking at the vision of Revelation 21 do you think anyone would choose to come back to this??

I presume you've seen The Matrix. There's a part where they talk about how initially the computer set it up as a utopia - no death, no crime, no pain - and humans rejected it because it's not in our nature to accept the status quo. I thought it was a deep and (seemingly) truthful statement.

Will our nature change in Heaven (or the new Earth, whatever)? Will we not desire the kinds of things that make us happy in our present form? If not, then are we still really ourselves? Isn't it all of this that makes us us?

I just can't imagine being happy if I weren't me. Does that make sense?

CoderHead · Aug 24, 2009

Revelation 21 said:
12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

Are these walls and gates keeping people out, or keeping people in??

Markus6 · Aug 24, 2009

CoderHead said:
From reading Genesis, I don't see that at all. God created the two of them without the knowledge of good and evil. So the proposition, "don't eat from that tree" and the ensuing, "go ahead and eat from this tree" presents a huge discrepancy in God's nature for me. If they had no knowledge of good and evil, they couldn't possibly have known it was wrong for them to eat the apple - especially if someone else told them it was OK.

From my perspective I think you're reading too much into them not having knowledge of good and evil and extending what that means too far. I think they knew that they were disobeying what God said and rather following the interesting promise of someone else.

CoderHead said:
And I don't think there was intent there either. I see no indication that either Adam or Eve desired life outside of the Garden. Rather, it seems they enjoyed walking with Him. It was only after the talking serpent spoke with an air of authority that Eve went, "oh well, I suppose so."

But the free will thing just bugs me...as you may be able to tell.

I think there was desire to see what effect this fruit had and that meant desire to find out what life is like when you disobey God.

I have sympathy with you on the free will thing though. It's used to often as a two word explain all.

pgp_protector · Aug 24, 2009

CoderHead said:
Are these walls and gates keeping people out, or keeping people in??

Out

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I think.

CoderHead · Aug 24, 2009

Markus6 said:
I think they knew that they were disobeying what God said and rather following the interesting promise of someone else.

Isn't that human nature? Wouldn't God have known that? What was the talking serpent doing in the Garden anyway??

Markus6 said:
I think there was desire to see what effect this fruit had and that meant desire to find out what life is like when you disobey God.

Again, human nature. Why wouldn't God have moved the tree outside of the Garden, like a parent would place all of the knives out of reach? That's the part I don't understand. It was like a blatant test that He knew we'd fail.

"Oh, you're curious? In that case, let me put this thing that will cause endless suffering right in the middle of where you live."

Do you see it differently?

CoderHead · Aug 24, 2009

Revelation 21 said:
27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I thought at this point He had managed to get rid of everything bad. What is there left to defile, work abomination, or make a lie? I'm confused now.

98cwitr · Aug 24, 2009

CoderHead said:
If you don't mind me asking - since you're a Christian - do you find the "so that we can make a choice and give glory to God" answer compelling?

don't we though, don't we choose to give that glory out of our own conviction to Him?

I suppose one of my issues is whether or not it's actually our fate. I mean, if we have free will forever, and free will got us in trouble this time around, couldn't it get us into trouble again? What's stopping us from deserving death a second time around? Do you see my dilemma?

You're not seeing the point, point is that when you truly love God and truly put Him first, even before yourself, you succumb to His wishes before your own and therefore satisfied, content, and happy about what He wishes...not yourself. I think that also answers the quotation below as well.

I don't know, really. I just ponder the possibility of spending eternity (not just a million years; eternity) doing nothing but praising God and I can't help but think that would be the most boring existence ever. I know other people don't...it's just me trying to wrap my brain around it. I don't like that thought. It sounds like prison, but instead of a life sentence, it's forever.

Honestly, I think it would be boring too...but that is not my spirit talking...it is only my human mind.

Why Not Bypass Earth?

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