Why not both?

TxLe · Apr 23, 2015

As a first time poster here, I have to wonder why everyone seems to ignore this simple question?

If you can accept that God is wise and great enough to Create everything, why can't you accept that He also gave His creations the ability to adapt, over time, to changing environmental factors (which is known as evolution)?
Why does it have to be one or the other, when BOTH makes sense, both Biblically and scientifically...

Shemjaza · Apr 23, 2015

TxLe said:
As a first time poster here, I have to wonder why everyone seems to ignore this simple question?

If you can accept that God is wise and great enough to Create everything, why can't you accept that He also gave His creations the ability to adapt, over time, to changing environmental factors (which is known as evolution)?
Why does it have to be one or the other, when BOTH makes sense, both Biblically and scientifically...

It's actually pretty common around here.

Interestingly it's mostly the creationists and not the atheists who think you can't believe in both.

(I don't believe personally, but I see no reason why faith can't be compatible with science).

crjmurray · Apr 23, 2015

Ask the resident expert who thinks evolution is inherently atheistic.

TxLe · Apr 23, 2015

Interesting, Shemjaza.

As one who does believe, I can readily accept both. I guess those who can't also believe that the Earth is only 10000 years old, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

crjmurray · Apr 23, 2015

TxLe said:
Interesting, Shemjaza.

As one who does believe, I can readily accept both. I guess those who can't also believe that the Earth is only 10000 years old, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

Yep

bhsmte · Apr 23, 2015

TxLe said:
As a first time poster here, I have to wonder why everyone seems to ignore this simple question?

If you can accept that God is wise and great enough to Create everything, why can't you accept that He also gave His creations the ability to adapt, over time, to changing environmental factors (which is known as evolution)?
Why does it have to be one or the other, when BOTH makes sense, both Biblically and scientifically...

While there are a fair share of fundie types on these boards, who look at evolution as the working of the devil, but the reality is; the majority of Christians agree with the theory of evolution. Which means, they accept the evidence we evolved over a very long period of time and they likely believe, God got the ball rolling somehow.

Hetta · Apr 23, 2015

I can accept both. And do. Leaning more and more away from the biblical version as I get more and more sick of right wing fundamentalists.

Strathos · Apr 23, 2015

Trust me, you're not the first to think of that. The problem is that many people on both sides refuse to compromise.

bhsmte · Apr 23, 2015

crjmurray said:
Ask the resident expert who thinks evolution is inherently atheistic.

Or maybe the resident expert should talk the majority of Christians who agree with the TOE.

OldWiseGuy · Apr 24, 2015

Adaptation through mutation, yes.

Evolution (changing from one species into another altogether), no.

Man evolving from lower life forms, no.

TxLe · Apr 24, 2015

Adaptation through mutation, over a course of ages, can not lead to new species? That's the whole point of adaptation. To adapt to new environments. Like whales having vestigial hips.

TxLe · Apr 24, 2015

Just a thought

Oafman · Apr 24, 2015

TxLe said:
Adaptation through mutation, over a course of ages, can not lead to new species? That's the whole point of adaptation. To adapt to new environments. Like whales having vestigial hips.

Indeed they can, and do. But this is the central belief for many who deny evolution; they appear to believe that God made life able to adapt, but only a little bit!

It strikes me that 'God kicked off the whole process and then allowed it to run its course' is a less irrational explanation.

OldWiseGuy · Apr 24, 2015

Oafman said:
Indeed they can, and do. But this is the central belief for many who deny evolution; they appear to believe that God made life able to adapt, but only a little bit!

It strikes me that 'God kicked off the whole process and then allowed it to run its course' is a less irrational explanation.

You have a complex system that built itself, or it was built. It's as simple as that. The idea that there is always a better alternative part waiting in the wings in case of failure is several 'bridges too far'. Creation can anticipate problems, but how can a mindless process?

Willtor · Apr 24, 2015

There are plenty of us on these boards who think that evolution is the best explanation we have for the diversity of life, the Big Bang is the best model we have for the formation of the universe, etc., and also believe in God as the Creator. Some of us are, ourselves, scientists.

It's clearly a false dilemma. There's no reason to think that there couldn't be both. Those of us who think there are, are called TE's (Theistic Evolutionists).

When "creationism" is referenced on these forums, it's typically restricted to the popular (in English-speaking countries) interpretation of Genesis in which the world was made ~6,000 years ago, and there's no evolution. That's also called YEC (Young Earth Creationism). There are also OEC's (Old Earth Creationists) from time to time, who think the world is ancient, but still reject evolution.

In this sub-forum, it's mostly down evolutionary lines, though. It's primarily YEC's (and occasionally OEC's), and everybody else. There are other sub-forums where people talk about Creation as a doctrine (mostly YEC's and TE's), or about the existence of God (mostly Christians and Atheists + Agnostics).

Oafman · Apr 24, 2015

OldWiseGuy said:
You have a complex system that built itself, or it was built. It's as simple as that. The idea that there is always a better alternative part waiting in the wings in case of failure is several 'bridges too far'. Creation can anticipate problems, but how can a mindless process?

A mindless process cannot anticipate problems. Which is probably why the vast majority of species which have ever existed are now extinct.

lewiscalledhimmaster · Apr 24, 2015

Oafman said:
It strikes me that 'God kicked off the whole process and then allowed it to run its course' is a less irrational explanation.

I dunno.
I think the Bible might have intuited some pretty dark reasons, as to why we might be in this rather awkward pickle.
If we consider the colossal time wasted moving through countless evolutions to get what we are now, which b.t.w ain't that grand! -- I'd hate to imagine what sort of deity/deities 'kicked off'
I'm thinking that maybe that old devil story might not half be wrong -- you know messing with stuff in the laboratory -- spilling a few here, knocking over a few there and next think it's all bollocks! Blame God? Nah, I think there was a Joker in the pack!!!!

edit: Helix has been tampering with my night visions.

Harry Morant · Apr 24, 2015

Agreed. Don't forget life arising from no life by chance. No.

TxLe · Apr 24, 2015

All interesting points. Personally, and the is just my opinion, the belief that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old is naive. I personally have prehistoric artifacts(including a chisel made from mammoth tusk) and fossils (including a megalodon tooth) that are FAR older than that.
The thought that all that is was created makes far more sense than "it just happened". At least to me. The thought that the Creator then imbued all of creation with the ability to adapt and evolve just follows linear logic. I mean, why create life only to watch it fail due to lack of ability to adapt?
Of course, there are, as pointed out above, far more extinct species than species currently living. Why? Simple answer: I dunno. Its called life. Things evolve/adapt and survive. Or not.

lewiscalledhimmaster · Apr 24, 2015

TxLe said:
All interesting points. Personally, and the is just my opinion, the belief that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old is naive. I personally have prehistoric artifacts(including a chisel made from mammoth tusk) and fossils (including a megalodon tooth) that are FAR older than that.
The thought that all that is was created makes far more sense than "it just happened". At least to me. The thought that the Creator then imbued all of creation with the ability to adapt and evolve just follows linear logic. I mean, why create life only to watch it fail due to lack of ability to adapt?
Of course, there are, as pointed out above, far more extinct species than species currently living. Why? Simple answer: I dunno. Its called life. Things evolve/adapt and survive. Or not.

Of course neither science nor religion (well, some do) posit that 'it just happened' -- As far as Evolution goes, it's less about beginnings and more about what followed what happened. At the most you will find that those who are studying beginnings -- i.e. Big Bangers and such, aren't that blase to imagine that 'it just happened'
In fact, there are those in the religious camp who say that MATTER came from NOTHING.

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