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If the mind is apart from the brain (and there is no evidence at all to support this) then it is difficult to account for the dramatic changes that can occur in personality, memory, etc. when one's brain is damaged. The dualists have to argue that the mind isn't properly communicating with the brain or the brain isn't communicating properly with the mind. Again, there is no evidence to support that. And how would it be walking around with a zombie body run by a brain which has an entirely different personality than your "real" personality?
Ed1wolf said: ↑
Please provide an example of a natural extracosmic Absolute.
eud: An example would be a natural universe that spawns other universes due to black holes, for instance.
Well then why did you say that no cosmologists believe the universe is an effect? Cosmologists who study cosmogony all believe the universe is an effect because they study the origin/cause of the universe.ed: Ever hear of the field of Cosmogony?
eud: That's what we've been talking about this whole time. Research into the earliest moments of the Big Bang is an example of cosmogony. What of it?
An example would be a natural universe that spawns other universes due to black holes, for instance.
Can I interject for a second guys?No, that would not be extracosmic. The black holes would just be linking all the universes, so actually it would just be all one universe. Extracosmic means "outside" or transcendent to the universe.
No, that would not be extracosmic.
Well then why did you say that no cosmologists believe the universe is an effect?
Cosmologists who study cosmogony all believe the universe is an effect because they study the origin/cause of the universe.
That is nonsense, and not supported by science.
eud: You are speaking nonsense. I agree that brains are biochemical, but that doesn't mean that brain "output" is determined by its ratio of chemical reagents. The brain is very complex, and does not function like mixing two fluids in a test tube.
It doesn't matter, if the mind is purely physically based then the outcome is the same. Is the mind that emerges physical or not?eud: You are speaking like a reductionist. I'm an emergentist. I don't deny that the brain is a biological organ. I deny your reductionistic interpretation of what properties the brain may have.
What is the difference at the fundamental level if the mind is physical?eud: Chemistry 101 isn't Biology 101 or Psychology 101.
How can something non-physical alter the physical? Belief is a non-physical property.eud: The brain is altered by belief in the powers of the placebo. Believing is a function of the brain.
No, these were carefully analyzed by reputable doctors and neuroscientists. Far from urban legends.eud: Not through careful studies. Stories (especially when they may be urban legends) don't count.
What is psychology?eud: Conditions pertaining to psychology. I'm not sure what more I need to say here.
eud: And
they are psychological conditions. They are both when it comes to brain function. There is no separating the two.
Yes, I did. I said that genetically the man is 100% male and yet he claims to be a female. The question is how can something that is completely tied to the physical ie genetics, cause something else physical go against every cell chromosome in the body? It makes no sense if the mind is purely a physical construct. Gender specific genetics show no real difference between you and Bruce Jenner.eud: BTW, you didn't reply to this:
Gender dysphoria has been linked to some extent to genetics. Why would that be if "male minds" and "female minds" are completely non-physical?
Most atheistic biologists such as Dawkins believe that even psychology is ultimately controlled by genes and biology. And this is what would be expected if the mind is totally tied to the physical.eud: So? What does that have to do with psychology?
No, not correct. Psychology is quite a bit more complex than that.
I don't know how you cannot be a determinist if you think the mind is totally tied to the physical chemical reactions of the brain. Simple logic based on stimuli such as avoiding pain is not logical reasoning even flatworms can do that. Logical reasoning cannot occur from something that is based on chemical reactions since the output is based on the reagents NOT on premises or the weighing of evidence. Actually many neuroscientists such as Daniel Dennett agree that we do not have a reasoning mind, ie that it is just an illusion and that we do not have the free will to truly weigh arguments and reason. What they don't realize is that such a view is self refuting and science destroying.I'm not a determinist. But let's say that we accept determinism provisionally. What is the problem here?
"Behaving" logically is still reasoning logically. One still reaches logical conclusions. Even if the "output" is predetermined by biochemistry, it is still logical output.
eudaimonia,
Mark
I don't know how you cannot be a determinist if you think the mind is totally tied to the physical chemical reactions of the brain. Simple logic based on stimuli such as avoiding pain is not logical reasoning even flatworms can do that. Logical reasoning cannot occur from something that is based on chemical reactions since the output is based on the reagents NOT on premises or the weighing of evidence. Actually many neuroscientists such as Daniel Dennett agree that we do not have a reasoning mind, ie that it is just an illusion and that we do not have the free will to truly weigh arguments and reason. What they don't realize is that such a view is self refuting and science destroying.
ed:
Because it means that your conclusions are based on the ratio of chemicals in your brain NOT on the logical weighing of evidence and arguments. But you continue to make arguments as if humans can do so, so your view is self refuting.
tm: That's just you asserting it.
Smells like a genetic fallacy.
It can only look at the options it was programmed with. And will only come up with the conclusions of problems that the programs can solve.tm: Just look at an AI engine for example...
It operates entirely on 1s and 0s, just like all other software, and it runs on hardware.
However, the neural network (organised through 1s and 0s) most certainly is capable of weighing options and forming conclusions based on the data available.
It makes perfect sense according to the laws of chemistry and if you believe that the brain is just chemicals with a little electricity thrown in.tm: Your objections, is thus not in evidence nore does it make any sense.
ed: But that is my point, if your mind is purely biochemistry then you CANNOT go where the evidence suggests,
tm: Why?
You keep asserting this, but you never explain it.
Exactly, it is the "nonexistent" non physical mind that cures the physical body. That is the evidence.ed: No, there are actual studies where people WERE cured. The Journal "New Scientist" in 2005 acknowledged this fact when they published their "13 Things that Don't Make Sense" and the placebo effect was No. 1 on the list.
tm: The placebo effect itself, does no curing.
tm: You are welcome to cite a study that says otherwise.
ed: This is more than anecdotal evidence, these are cases that have been confirmed and analyzed by doctors and neuroscientists.
tm: Citation?
Until you provide it, it's just an anecdote.
ed: Exactly.
tm: You can't say "exactly" and then go on to disagree....
ed: That is my point. Biologically these people are either 100% male or female
tm: Your point is false.
I said that the differences are NOT restricted to the presence of reproductive organs. There's hormone balances etc that come into play as well.
So far I have seen no one come up with such a cause, unless you can provide a citation.tm: People with a gender identity crisis, will likely have a biological cause for it.
ed: If this is real then this shows a nearly complete disconnect between what they are mentally and what they are biologically.
tm: Only if you ignore the underlying biological causes for such gender identity confusion.
So, it's just anecdotal.
eud; That's Aldous Huxley. I don't doubt that there are going to be a handful of people like that. It's not a likely explanation for the vast majority of people who accept evolution.
I did not say it was the majority.eud: Or would an ex-Christian who said that the main reason that he ever became a Christian because he feared death mean that the majority of Christians became Christians for that exact reason?
Nevertheless as seen by the field of cosmogony most cosmologists do believe the universe is an effect.eud: You could say that it is knowledge of definitions. In that sense, it is knowledge of logical thinking, since definitions and their applications are a part of logical thinking. Scientists will of course agree with the definitions. However, the definitions are not scientific knowledge. They precede scientific knowledge. They are not knowledge of the universe as attained through science. That is what I meant.
eud: Unicorns are also a logical possibility. So is Frodo Baggins. Logical possibilities are a dime a dozen. They have no scientific or philosophical weight. *shrug*
Ok, provide an entity without a mind that can reason logically.
I agree it is complex but how do hundreds of fluids NOT operate according to the laws of biochemistry?
It doesn't matter, if the mind is purely physically based then the outcome is the same. Is the mind that emerges physical or not?
What is the difference at the fundamental level if the mind is physical?
How can something non-physical alter the physical? Belief is a non-physical property.
No, these were carefully analyzed by reputable doctors and neuroscientists. Far from urban legends.
What is psychology?
But the brain is 100% physically male and yet he claims he is a female. That is a nearly complete separation of the mind from the physical.
Yes, I did. I said that genetically the man is 100% male and yet he claims to be a female. The question is how can something that is completely tied to the physical ie genetics, cause something else physical go against every cell chromosome in the body? It makes no sense if the mind is purely a physical construct. Gender specific genetics show no real difference between you and Bruce Jenner.
Most atheistic biologists such as Dawkins believe that even psychology is ultimately controlled by genes and biology. And this is what would be expected if the mind is totally tied to the physical.
No, computers are bound by how they are programmed, if they are programmed with a form of logic then they can use that form of logic to come to a determined conclusion. Computers in themselves do not reason. So IOW they operate according to purely physical processes.TIL that computers are non-physical. Funny how they missed telling me that through 7 years of college and 20+ in the industry.
I never said it was exactly like simply combining two chemicals, electrophysical laws are also involved, but nevertheless they are determined and do not operate on the laws of logical reasoning. And actually your article supports intelligent design of the brain, as far as we know only intelligent minds can design city's and their power grids.Compare mixing two chemical solutions in a test tube to what happens below.
Your brain wiring is like a city, says neuroscience
Brain Wiring
Biochemistry is certainly involved, but it doesn't "boil down" to biochemistry in any extreme reductionist way, as you are trying to do.
eudaimonia,
Mark
So you deny that the product of chemical reactions are not the result of the ratio of the reagents? You just failed chemistry if so.
It can only look at the options it was programmed with.
And will only come up with the conclusions of problems that the programs can solve.
It makes perfect sense according to the laws of chemistry and if you believe that the brain is just chemicals with a little electricity thrown in.
Exactly, it is the "nonexistent" non physical mind that cures the physical body. That is the evidence.
I did, read the article I referenced above.
Read "Brain Death and Consciousness" especially the article by Pim van Lommel called "About the Continuity of Our Consciousness". p. 115.
I agree it is not restricted to reproductive organs, there are sex differences between brains too. And these people have male brains or female brains and yet claim to be the opposite sex.
So far I have seen no one come up with such a cause, unless you can provide a citation.
Please state what those biological causes are and your source. I have never heard such causes reported.
If the mind is apart from the brain (and there is no evidence at all to support this)
No, these can be accounted for by the mind requiring an undamaged brain to interact with the outside world. It is like if I started typing on a damaged computer keyboard. So that some letters were missing. You would think I was mentally challenged and yet I would actually not be. It would just be my damaged brain/computer/ keyboard.reb: then it is difficult to account for the dramatic changes that can occur in personality, memory, etc. when one's brain is damaged.
reb: The dualists have to argue that the mind isn't properly communicating with the brain or the brain isn't communicating properly with the mind. Again, there is no evidence to support that.
reb: And how would it be walking around with a zombie body run by a brain which has an entirely different personality than your "real" personality?
Can I interject for a second guys?
First, "extra cosmic" would mean outside the cosmos, not the universe, and I think that's what you mean anyways. The cosmos is everything there is. If there are multiple universes, they are contained in the cosmos, but they are still separate universes, which means there are things outside our universe. "The universe" doesn't mean "everything that is" anymore, that's what the term "cosmos" is for now.
nd: Right now, inflation theory is the leading theory, and it predicts multiple universes. People have been working on the multiverse theory since at least the 1960s, and mathematical proofs have been formulated that a universe can pop into existence from nothing more than a little bit of space and the laws of physics. I'm no expert, certainly, and it isn't proven, of course. But right now it's been shown to be entirely plausible and pretty likely.
nd: So, yes, the universe is an effect, but it may be the effect of a totally naturally occurring process within the cosmos, and there's no indication that the cosmos is an effect of anything.
No, the multiverse does not refute the existence of God as shown above. It still requires a cause very similar to the Christian God.nd: Now the multiverse is going to get a bunch of pushback from theists because of people like Krauss running around saying it refutes the existence of god(s) since no extra cosmic trigger is needed for new universes to occur, but that just makes everyone defensive to scientific discovery.
Yes, even Einstein said that the laws of physics require a Lawgiver. IOW a supernatural personal being. Actually even though the bible is not a science book, when it does touch on science, it is correct. Such as the fact that the Bible is the only sacred religious book that teaches the inflationary theory of the universe. It teaches that the universe had a definite beginning and is expanding and is winding down energetically. This is evidence for its divine origin.nd: Trouble is, and scientists have pointed out, that you still have to wonder where the laws of physics come from, even if there's no indication they had a beginning. Even WLC has started formulating an argument that says, "if there's a multiverse, God has to be behind it". So people may eventually have to drop the Kalaam, but that doesn't mean anyone has disproven God, so people shouldn't be attacking inflation theory from a religious perspective.
Remember, the Bible isn't a science book.
Perhaps I misunderstand the term "extra-cosmic", but where do "Stanley Jaki and Jones and Wilson" define "extra-cosmic"? Do you have a quote of that? Because without that, I don't know what they mean by the term, and you were appealing to their arguments.
Though I hardly think it matters at this point. Even if they are right that an "extra-cosmic Absolute" is not mathematically contradictory with a physics of our universe, it can still be the case that our universe is just a part of a natural "cosmos" (or multiverse) that is "Absolute" in the sense of not being an effect of anything else.
Fraid not, from Wikipedia:eud:*facepalm*
Cosmogony is an attempt to explain how the universe developed into the form we know today. It traces causes over time, but does not insist that our universe is itself caused.
eudaimonia,
Mark
Meh, we made the term "cosmologist" before people started thinking there was a possibility of more than one universe. So tell me this, if a Big Bang produces a universe, and there's more than one big bang, is the term "universe" really applicable for everything that exists? That creates a contradiction in the fact that there are more than one universe, and there is one universe.No, cosmos DOES mean the universe. Why do you think that scientists that study the universe are called COSMOLOGISTS. And universe means everything that physically exists.
I tried to find how many cosmologists ascribe to the multiverse idea and how many don't. You're right that there's more contention than I thought, and inflation theory doesn't necessarily predict multiple universes though. However it isn't all theoretical. The theories are based in part on observations made in labs and in space. String theory is an example of something that is all theoretical because it is all math.No, actually the majority view is still only one universe. There is no empirical evidence that other universes exist, it is all theoretical. But even if there are other universes, the Level 1 and Level 2 models for the multiverse still show that the multiverse is an effect and requires a cause that fits the characteristics of the Christian God.
Why did you start with a "no" here? In the part you quoted, I actually agreed with you so...No, the multiverse does not refute the existence of God as shown above. It still requires a cause very similar to the Christian God.
Einstein said that the idea of a "personal" god is childish, so you should work on your paraphrasing (IOW) skills. The Bible doesn't say anything about science. What you perceive is your selective interpretation to try and match poetic language to scientific facts.Yes, even Einstein said that the laws of physics require a Lawgiver. IOW a supernatural personal being. Actually even though the bible is not a science book, when it does touch on science, it is correct. Such as the fact that the Bible is the only sacred religious book that teaches the inflationary theory of the universe. It teaches that the universe had a definite beginning and is expanding and is winding down energetically. This is evidence for its divine origin.
All your reasons for not believing boil down to a character flaw, namely: self-aggrandizement....Some souls do not want anyone to be over them and greater than they are;
...and others want answers to satisfy their rebellious spirit.
...Some others think much in terms of seeing, feeling, and touching, so will not bow to that which is intangible, as they say
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