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Exploring Christianity
Why must the alternative to heaven be hell?
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<blockquote data-quote="aiki" data-source="post: 61642035" data-attributes="member: 178791"><p>I think I already answered your first question above. Were we "born in sin and shaped in iniquity"? I can't think of a verse in Scripture, at least in the versions I read, that says this. We are "dead in trespasses and sins," the Bible says. It also says that "in Adam all die." Paul the apostle writes of our bodies being born in corruption, dishonor, weakness and spiritual lifelessness. But Scripture also says, </p><p></p><p><strong>Romans 5:12 </strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #000000">12 </span>Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, <u>because all sinned-- </u></strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Intended or not, sinful choices always produce destruction - and often upon those who were not party to that sinful choice. This is why sin is, in part, so awful, which was my sole point in offering the examples that I did. I am not willing to argue over extrapolations from my examples that I did not use the examples to support or defend. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You seem to want to abrogate any and all responsibility people (yourself included, I assume) have for the wicked things they do. More than this, you want to blame the sin of everyone upon God! Incredible! But as I have explained, when God allows us free will (which He does in order that we might truly love Him), He must also necessarily allow the consequences arising from the exercise of our free will. Does God intend those consequences of our choices that are sinful and destructive? Of course not. But He cannot give us the capacity to freely choose to do right without also giving us the capacity to choose to do wrong. <em>We</em> are the ones, however, who use our capacity to choose toward an end contrary to what God intends. Thus, we are responsible for our sin, not God. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You don't seem to be reading carefully what I'm writing. Please show me where I suggest that we should have a world where no one is capable of harming themselves. </p><p></p><p>The choices God has made in creating gravity, fire, water, etc., create risks for us that are sometimes fatally realized. Why did God make such a dangerous world? Who knows? Could He have made a better, less dangerous world? Possibly. Regardless, this is the world God gave us and we must make the best of it. Railing against Him for not doing things the way we think He should have does nothing to change what is. In the end, your criticisms of God's methods in allowing sin into the world through Adam's choice do nothing to alter His judgment of your sin. You may use your objections as justification to turn your back on Him, but this doesn't prevent in the slightest the moment when you will stand before Him as your Judge. </p><p></p><p>Selah. </p><p></p><p></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="aiki, post: 61642035, member: 178791"] I think I already answered your first question above. Were we "born in sin and shaped in iniquity"? I can't think of a verse in Scripture, at least in the versions I read, that says this. We are "dead in trespasses and sins," the Bible says. It also says that "in Adam all die." Paul the apostle writes of our bodies being born in corruption, dishonor, weakness and spiritual lifelessness. But Scripture also says, [B]Romans 5:12 [/B] [B][COLOR=#000000]12 [/COLOR]Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, [U]because all sinned-- [/U][/B] Intended or not, sinful choices always produce destruction - and often upon those who were not party to that sinful choice. This is why sin is, in part, so awful, which was my sole point in offering the examples that I did. I am not willing to argue over extrapolations from my examples that I did not use the examples to support or defend. You seem to want to abrogate any and all responsibility people (yourself included, I assume) have for the wicked things they do. More than this, you want to blame the sin of everyone upon God! Incredible! But as I have explained, when God allows us free will (which He does in order that we might truly love Him), He must also necessarily allow the consequences arising from the exercise of our free will. Does God intend those consequences of our choices that are sinful and destructive? Of course not. But He cannot give us the capacity to freely choose to do right without also giving us the capacity to choose to do wrong. [I]We[/I] are the ones, however, who use our capacity to choose toward an end contrary to what God intends. Thus, we are responsible for our sin, not God. You don't seem to be reading carefully what I'm writing. Please show me where I suggest that we should have a world where no one is capable of harming themselves. The choices God has made in creating gravity, fire, water, etc., create risks for us that are sometimes fatally realized. Why did God make such a dangerous world? Who knows? Could He have made a better, less dangerous world? Possibly. Regardless, this is the world God gave us and we must make the best of it. Railing against Him for not doing things the way we think He should have does nothing to change what is. In the end, your criticisms of God's methods in allowing sin into the world through Adam's choice do nothing to alter His judgment of your sin. You may use your objections as justification to turn your back on Him, but this doesn't prevent in the slightest the moment when you will stand before Him as your Judge. Selah. [COLOR=black][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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Why must the alternative to heaven be hell?
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