Log in
Register
Search
Search titles only
By:
Search titles only
By:
Forums
New posts
Forum list
Search forums
Leaderboards
Games
Our Blog
Blogs
New entries
New comments
Blog list
Search blogs
Credits
Transactions
Shop
Blessings: ✟0.00
Tickets
Open new ticket
Watched
Donate
Log in
Register
Search
Search titles only
By:
Search titles only
By:
More options
Toggle width
Share this page
Share this page
Share
Reddit
Pinterest
Tumblr
WhatsApp
Email
Share
Link
Menu
Install the app
Install
Forums
Outreach
Outreach
Exploring Christianity
Why must the alternative to heaven be hell?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="aiki" data-source="post: 61634575" data-attributes="member: 178791"><p>I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "perfect like Adam." Adam was only morally<em> innocent</em> - and only because he was ignorant. When he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil he lost his innocence, born of his ignorance, and discovered himself to be a sinner. </p><p></p><p>Why didn't God suspend the consequences of Adam's disobedient choice? Because, as I think I have already explained, doing so would make Adam's free choice no choice at all. We choose one thing over another precisely because of the resulting consequences of that choice. The consequence of choosing chocolate to eat rather than vinegar is that I enjoy a sweet, chocolatey taste rather than a sharp, bitter one. But if every time I choose chocolate I end up with vinegar, I'm not really making a choice between the two. The reality is that, regardless of what I choose, I will always end up with the same thing, which means I don't really have a choice to make. So, if God suspended the consequences of Adam's choice, He would be effectively emptying Adam's free choice of its value. Adam's choice would not be truly free because it would not truly be a choice. God values our capacity to choose freely. This capacity is integral to genuine love, which is what God desires from us. Consequently, He allows us to exercise free will, which, as I've explained, necessarily entails also allowing whatever consequences proceed from our choices. </p><p></p><p>Also, God is working to display His various divine attributes through the Story of Redemption. If God simply negated every bad choice we made what would we know of God's justice and holiness? What would we know of His love and mercy? All we would know is that whatever we do it will always be made to conform precisely to God's will and purposes. We would recognize ourselves prisoners to God's will, unable to do anything but what He wants. Certainly love for God would be impossible because under such circumstances it would be meaningless. </p><p></p><p>One last thing: What makes you think you would make a better choice than Adam did were you in his place in Eden? I very much doubt that if walking and talking with God, having every physical need met, being of a perfectly sound body and mind, and living in a virtual paradise did not prevent Adam from sinning, it would not prevent any of us from doing the same. Really, Adam and Eve did nothing more than anyone else would have done. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My point was that one person's sinful choice may affect others very negatively. In this regard, my examples work very well. I was not intending that they should prove anything more. </p><p></p><p>At some point, one must let God be God, which means that He is given the freedom as God to establish things the way He wants. Do you rail against God for making gravity? Gravity has killed many people. How about water? Many people have drowned in water. What about fire? It has killed many people, too. One could go on endlessly second-guessing every little thing God has done. Why didn't God make the ground bouncy like a trampoline, or the sky orange rather than blue, or flowers as big as houses? And on and on. The only purpose I can see in this sort of thing is to legitimize defying His rule. It is a transparent attempt to justify rejecting Him. The issue isn't God so much as it is a powerful desire to be one's own boss. But God will not relinquish His rightful place as Sovereign of the Universe. One way or the other, sooner or later, you will bend your knee to Him. </p><p></p><p>Selah. </p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="aiki, post: 61634575, member: 178791"] I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "perfect like Adam." Adam was only morally[I] innocent[/I] - and only because he was ignorant. When he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil he lost his innocence, born of his ignorance, and discovered himself to be a sinner. Why didn't God suspend the consequences of Adam's disobedient choice? Because, as I think I have already explained, doing so would make Adam's free choice no choice at all. We choose one thing over another precisely because of the resulting consequences of that choice. The consequence of choosing chocolate to eat rather than vinegar is that I enjoy a sweet, chocolatey taste rather than a sharp, bitter one. But if every time I choose chocolate I end up with vinegar, I'm not really making a choice between the two. The reality is that, regardless of what I choose, I will always end up with the same thing, which means I don't really have a choice to make. So, if God suspended the consequences of Adam's choice, He would be effectively emptying Adam's free choice of its value. Adam's choice would not be truly free because it would not truly be a choice. God values our capacity to choose freely. This capacity is integral to genuine love, which is what God desires from us. Consequently, He allows us to exercise free will, which, as I've explained, necessarily entails also allowing whatever consequences proceed from our choices. Also, God is working to display His various divine attributes through the Story of Redemption. If God simply negated every bad choice we made what would we know of God's justice and holiness? What would we know of His love and mercy? All we would know is that whatever we do it will always be made to conform precisely to God's will and purposes. We would recognize ourselves prisoners to God's will, unable to do anything but what He wants. Certainly love for God would be impossible because under such circumstances it would be meaningless. One last thing: What makes you think you would make a better choice than Adam did were you in his place in Eden? I very much doubt that if walking and talking with God, having every physical need met, being of a perfectly sound body and mind, and living in a virtual paradise did not prevent Adam from sinning, it would not prevent any of us from doing the same. Really, Adam and Eve did nothing more than anyone else would have done. My point was that one person's sinful choice may affect others very negatively. In this regard, my examples work very well. I was not intending that they should prove anything more. At some point, one must let God be God, which means that He is given the freedom as God to establish things the way He wants. Do you rail against God for making gravity? Gravity has killed many people. How about water? Many people have drowned in water. What about fire? It has killed many people, too. One could go on endlessly second-guessing every little thing God has done. Why didn't God make the ground bouncy like a trampoline, or the sky orange rather than blue, or flowers as big as houses? And on and on. The only purpose I can see in this sort of thing is to legitimize defying His rule. It is a transparent attempt to justify rejecting Him. The issue isn't God so much as it is a powerful desire to be one's own boss. But God will not relinquish His rightful place as Sovereign of the Universe. One way or the other, sooner or later, you will bend your knee to Him. Selah. [COLOR=black][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Forums
Outreach
Outreach
Exploring Christianity
Why must the alternative to heaven be hell?
Top
Bottom