Why makes/keeps you Lutheran?

I asked this question this to a Methodist minister, with no satisfactory answer
In Gen 1:1 a world was created
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth...
This is my question, Where is That world now?

Soma Seer said:

Could you explain what gimmicks or needless dressing was added to the the Evangelical and Pentecostal services that you'd attended? (I never have been to a service of either group and, so, am very curious.)


Thank you!

SS

Click to expand...

The best way I can put it is like this, most of my life the Gospel was presented as a sort of, "God did this for you, now it's your turn to do this for God" or "God made the initiative, now it's up to you".

Things like "Make a personal decision to follow Jesus" or "Accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" or "God accepts you, now come up to this altar and say this prayer and accept God" etc.

The emphasis was on what I was supposed to do, my choices, my decisions, my "yes". Salvation, God's grace, was fundamentally connected to my power of will, connected to my level of sincerity and "really meaning it".

As such I grew up deeply terrified of whether I was saved, whether I really was accepted by God or not. Because even though the words "by grace alone" were said, it was meant as, "God's grace alone, now you have to do this or say this and really mean it." But I had no idea what that meant, I had no idea what "meaning it" meant. How could I know my choice or my decision or my power to believe was sincere enough, what did that sort of sincerity look like?

And so in order to ensure that I really was sincere, I worked really hard to "feel" God. To put as much energy and effort into "worship" that I could, I wasn't just going to lift my hands during the music, I was going to really, really, really lift my hands up and try as hard as I could to mean it. I struggled really, really hard to pray that my sins would go away and the ones I really continued to struggle with would lessen or happen less often. I tried really, really hard to love God and to "feel" like I loved God.

And in every single case of all this whatever momentary feeling of elation I may have had, was counterbalanced by continuous failing, falling, sinning, and realizing that 99% of my day was not spent actively "loving God" (whatever I thought that meant at the time) but often I didn't even think about God.

I was a sinner and I knew it. And every aspect of my church life which was manufactured specifically to make me feel "close to God" or "spiritual" only ever made me feel farther and farther away from God. And so I never felt the "freedom" I was told I was supposed to feel. I was not getting holier or better, I was not sinning less, I wasn't any more moral than I was the day before. I was a broken sinner helpless before a righteous and holy God, and no matter what I said, thought, or did I remained a broken sinner before this righteous and holy God.

And I was terrified.

As a Lutheran I now am equipped with language to understand what was going on back then. I was hearing Law confused as the Gospel, and the Law was doing what it's supposed to do--be a mirror that reveals that I am, indeed, a sinner before the good and just God who commands that I be good and just like Him; that I am not good and just and nothing I do makes me good or makes me just--and the harder I try, the more evident my lack of goodness and lack of justice becomes.

Doubly more important, that the pure, unfiltered Gospel of Jesus Christ is simply what God Himself has done in and through Jesus Christ for me, for you, for the whole world. Apart from me, completely independent of me, and this Gospel comes to me from outside myself, independent of my thoughts, my words, my will, or anything within me. It comes from God, as His gracious, compassionate, loving Word that says to me, "Christ died for you, Christ is risen from the dead, your sins are forgiven, you are well loved, and Christ is coming again, you have life forever." This promise is irrevocable, unbreakable, pure, unblemished, and completely trustworthy.

It's not up to me to make it apply to me. It's up to God who has said it is for me, for the whole world, for everyone. And it is, because God said it is. And that's good news.

-CryptoLutheran

1) Why are you Lutheran (vs. Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox)?

My mother is Lutheran and when I was 4 we began to attend a church that was across the alley from where we lived. I was baptized that year and also confirmed later in that same church. It was originally an Indiana/Kentucky Synod but that merged with ELCA and that's when we left.

I then did not attend church for a while until I got married and attended the Roman Catholic church with my husband who is RC. Of course I felt something was missing and wanted to take communion so my sister and I attended a LCMS church where some of our friends were members. We fell in love with it since it maintained a liturgical service and the pastor knew how to properly distinguish between Law and Gospel in his sermons.

I remained there until we moved and now I attend a different LCMS church.

I tried to leave Lutheranism a few times. Each time though, God called me back. I have read the Bible from cover to cover a few times and I do not see a conflict with what Lutherans believe. I do see flaws that other denominations believe which is why I could never become a member anywhere else.

If I did not think Lutherans were closest to what the bible teaches, I would not stay. But here I am. Kyrie Eleison

ViaCrucis said:

As a Lutheran I now am equipped with language to understand what was going on back then. I was hearing Law confused as the Gospel, and the Law was doing what it's supposed to do--be a mirror that reveals that I am, indeed, a sinner before the good and just God who commands that I be good and just like Him; that I am not good and just and nothing I do makes me good or makes me just--and the harder I try, the more evident my lack of goodness and lack of justice becomes.

Click to expand...

Are you saying that Lutheranism--along with a host of other denominations, I suppose--teaches that we souls, at the core of our being, are not good and just? And that the harder that we try to be these things, the more evident it becomes that we are not them? Or are you talking strictly about souls that are duped regarding their true (divine) nature due to being in the flesh?

If you mean the former, I guess that puts me at odds with one aspect of orthodox Christianity. I believe that as we are made in God's image--and a Triune one, at that--our essence is God's essence. (We have Divine DNA, if you will.) And, thus, we are truly good/pure in our makeup but, due to sin (in mind and body), we've lost sight of our true nature and full connection (Communion) with God.

Doubly more important, that the pure, unfiltered Gospel of Jesus Christ is simply what God Himself has done in and through Jesus Christ for me, for you, for the whole world. Apart from me, completely independent of me, and this Gospel comes to me from outside myself, independent of my thoughts, my words, my will, or anything within me. It comes from God, as His gracious, compassionate, loving Word that says to me, "Christ died for you, Christ is risen from the dead, your sins are forgiven, you are well loved, and Christ is coming again, you have life forever." This promise is irrevocable, unbreakable, pure, unblemished, and completely trustworthy.

It's not up to me to make it apply to me. It's up to God who has said it is for me, for the whole world, for everyone. And it is, because God said it is. And that's good news.

Click to expand...

Although I still take a somewhat different view, I think that your explanation is beautiful. Thank you very much for sharing it.

LilLamb219 said:

I tried to leave Lutheranism a few times. Each time though, God called me back.

Click to expand...

I would take that as a sign that the Lutheran denomination is where God wants you to be, as it must be the best one for you.

Soma Seer said:

Are you saying that Lutheranism--along with a host of other denominations, I suppose--teaches that we souls, at the core of our being, are not good and just? And that the harder that we try to be these things, the more evident it becomes that we are not them?

Click to expand...

That's correct. Though "we souls" isn't how I'd put it. We human beings rather.

We are not good and just at the core of our humanity, we are broken, fallen, curved inward. We pursue our own selfish desires, our desire, our drive is not toward God and His righteousness but toward ourselves and our selfish wants.

Or are you talking strictly about souls that are duped regarding their true (divine) nature due to being in the flesh?

Click to expand...

That's Gnosticism which has nothing in common with authentic, orthodox Christianity, Lutheran or otherwise.

We are not "souls" encased in flesh. We are human persons, full, robust, physical, thinking creatures of matter and mind. The Platonic theory of the soul and the soul's descent into the debasement of matter and flesh is entirely alien from everything Christianity is about. Christianity affirms the intrinsic goodness of material creation, that God in the beginning said "It is exceedingly good". Being a physical, flesh-and-blood human person is a fundamentally good thing, and it is that which God is saving, redeeming, reconciling, and restoring in and through Christ, the God-Man, who bearing our humanity and suffering our death becomes the Victor over death and in Him is thus found forgiveness of sin, and hope for eternal life for the world. Resurrection of the dead.

Material, physical existence is not a flaw; it is the intentional design. I am not a soul, I'm a human person. I am creature of dust and carbon, created for the glory of God; what I need isn't an interior discovery of my true "divine" nature; but salvation from my own selfish, self-destructive desires and lusts--sin. And to be made well, made whole, which happens in Jesus Christ and Him only, and is the promise I have from God in Christ by the Gospel. For this reason Christ came, for this reason Christ died and Christ rose and Christ is coming again. For this reason I was baptized, for this reason I partake of the Lord's Supper--the very body and blood of Christ in and under the elements of bread and wine. For this reason I believe and hope that on the last day this very body will be raised up to life immortal and everlasting to eternity with God.

That God did not abandon Christ to death, neither will He abandon us or this world, but shall save it, and raise us up, to share in the very life which Christ has--which is true bodily life, forever.

If you mean the former, I guess that puts me at odds with one aspect of orthodox Christianity. I believe that as we are made in God's image--and a Triune one, at that--our essence is God's essence. (We have Divine DNA, if you will.) And, thus, we are truly good/pure in our makeup but, due to sin (in mind and body), we've lost sight of our true nature and full connection (Communion) with God.

Click to expand...

Being made in God's image isn't about our ontology, but our teleology--the purpose of what we were made for. We are not minor divinities, enfleshed emanations from some pure spiritual source as the ancient gnostic heretics falsely taught; we are creatures of flesh, blood, and bone created to be God's image-bearers, to reflect into the world the love, goodness, justice, and glory of God. Sin and death means that we are not being this thing, salvation is to be restored, in Jesus, to that holy purpose.

We are not just, but we are supposed to be just--even as God is just. In Christ the justice of God is revealed, and by Him we the unjust are justified by Him who is alone Just. Covered by His justice, to present us justified before God, and to deliver us on the Final Day, at the resurrection of the dead, into the future just and good world of God--and be the just ones we were always meant to be.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis,

So as to not further promote debate in this forum, I will send you a PM.


SS

Semiday said:

I asked this question this to a Methodist minister, with no satisfactory answer
In Gen 1:1 a world was created
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth...
This is my question, Where is That world now?

Click to expand...

I believe that we are still in the midst of that (this) world that God created, but because of the fall of mankind, that world was drastically changed.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
So the question is; where is that world now? When presented with this question many people will say that the above statement is an overview of the creation and that the details follow in the next verses.
But this argument cannot work, because the world that was created in Gen 1:1 was created on the first day of creation whereas this world that we live on, was not in existence until the third day. It did not exist on the first day
Gen1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth;...
...13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
The Earth created in the above passage, is this earth that we live on, as subsequent verses clearly indicate, and it was created on the third day and so, it did not exist on the first day, so the Earth that was created on the first day, and the Earth that was created on the third day, are clearly two different places. So the question remains, The world that was created in
Gen 1:1 Where is that world now? The world that was created on the first day

MarkRohfrietsch said:

I believe that we are still in the midst of that (this) world that God created, but because of the fall of mankind, that world was drastically changed.

Click to expand...

I agree and blame the drastic alteration of the world on the misuse of free will.

I know three parables that all tell one story, each parable tells its part of this story, The story they tell is what happened to the world that was created in Gen 1:1, and how aspects of this event affected the situation today on this world that we live on.
After Matthew related the parable of the leaven he went on to say
Matthew 13:35 ... I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES ; I WILL UTTER THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN KEPT SECRET FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
The parable of the leaven is one of the three parables I refer to.
Ian

I know three parables that all tell one story, each parable tells its part of this story, The story they tell is what happened to the world that was created in Gen 1:1, and how aspects of this event affected the situation today on this world that we live on.
After Matthew related the parable of the leaven he went on to say
Matthew 13:35 ... I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES ; I WILL UTTER THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN KEPT SECRET FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
The parable of the leaven is one of the three parables I refer to.
Ian

Soma Seer said:

I agree and blame the drastic alteration of the world on the misuse of free will.

Click to expand...

Semiday said:

I know three parables that all tell one story, each parable tells its part of this story, The story they tell is what happened to the world that was created in Gen 1:1, and how aspects of this event affected the situation today on this world that we live on.
After Matthew related the parable of the leaven he went on to say
Matthew 13:35 ... I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES ; I WILL UTTER THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN KEPT SECRET FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
The parable of the leaven is one of the three parables I refer to.
Ian

Click to expand...

Semiday, Ian; Welcome to Christian forums! This may not be the best place to discuss this. This is the Lutheran forum, so someone who is not Lutheran may ask questions and post in fellowship, but may not debate. I would suggest that you may want to start a thread here; where it will be on topic, and you will get a broader spectrum of answers: General Theology

I am Lutheran because it is the best church in our area(lots of liberal/evangelical/baptist/mega/non-denoms). If there were an orthodox Reformed or Presby church anywhere close, I'd be there. Nevertheless, I am very fond of my Lutheran church family and thank God for it, daily.

ViaCrucis said:

That's correct. Though "we souls" isn't how I'd put it. We human beings rather.

We are not good and just at the core of our humanity, we are broken, fallen, curved inward. We pursue our own selfish desires, our desire, our drive is not toward God and His righteousness but toward ourselves and our selfish wants.



That's Gnosticism which has nothing in common with authentic, orthodox Christianity, Lutheran or otherwise.

We are not "souls" encased in flesh. We are human persons, full, robust, physical, thinking creatures of matter and mind. The Platonic theory of the soul and the soul's descent into the debasement of matter and flesh is entirely alien from everything Christianity is about. Christianity affirms the intrinsic goodness of material creation, that God in the beginning said "It is exceedingly good". Being a physical, flesh-and-blood human person is a fundamentally good thing, and it is that which God is saving, redeeming, reconciling, and restoring in and through Christ, the God-Man, who bearing our humanity and suffering our death becomes the Victor over death and in Him is thus found forgiveness of sin, and hope for eternal life for the world. Resurrection of the dead.

Material, physical existence is not a flaw; it is the intentional design. I am not a soul, I'm a human person. I am creature of dust and carbon, created for the glory of God; what I need isn't an interior discovery of my true "divine" nature; but salvation from my own selfish, self-destructive desires and lusts--sin. And to be made well, made whole, which happens in Jesus Christ and Him only, and is the promise I have from God in Christ by the Gospel. For this reason Christ came, for this reason Christ died and Christ rose and Christ is coming again. For this reason I was baptized, for this reason I partake of the Lord's Supper--the very body and blood of Christ in and under the elements of bread and wine. For this reason I believe and hope that on the last day this very body will be raised up to life immortal and everlasting to eternity with God.

That God did not abandon Christ to death, neither will He abandon us or this world, but shall save it, and raise us up, to share in the very life which Christ has--which is true bodily life, forever.



Being made in God's image isn't about our ontology, but our teleology--the purpose of what we were made for. We are not minor divinities, enfleshed emanations from some pure spiritual source as the ancient gnostic heretics falsely taught; we are creatures of flesh, blood, and bone created to be God's image-bearers, to reflect into the world the love, goodness, justice, and glory of God. Sin and death means that we are not being this thing, salvation is to be restored, in Jesus, to that holy purpose.

We are not just, but we are supposed to be just--even as God is just. In Christ the justice of God is revealed, and by Him we the unjust are justified by Him who is alone Just. Covered by His justice, to present us justified before God, and to deliver us on the Final Day, at the resurrection of the dead, into the future just and good world of God--and be the just ones we were always meant to be.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

What he said!

Reminds me of one of C.S. Lewis's pithy remarks on the unbiblical spirit vs. matter issue: "God likes matter. He made it, and called it good."

Preach on, brother...

K

Hello Kepler
Here is a major clue as to who you and I actually are. After Eve had sinned PART of Gods judgement on her was
Genesis 3:16 UNTO THE WOMAN HE SAID I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY THY SORROW AND THY CONCEPTION...
So whatever the intended number of the population of man; was to have been, it will now be greatly increased.
The above is a clue, but the answer is hidden in the parables
MATTHEW 13:35 ...I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES; I WILL UTTER THINGS WHICH HAVE BEEN KEPT SECRET FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

Hello Kepler
Here is a major clue as to who you and I actually are. After Eve had sinned PART of Gods judgement on her was
Genesis 3:16 UNTO THE WOMAN HE SAID I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY THY SORROW AND THY CONCEPTION...
So whatever the intended number of the population of man; was to have been, it will now be greatly increased.
The above is a clue, but the answer is hidden in the parables
MATTHEW 13:35 ...I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES; I WILL UTTER THINGS WHICH HAVE BEEN KEPT SECRET FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

Semiday said:

Hello Kepler
Here is a major clue as to who you and I actually are. After Eve had sinned PART of Gods judgement on her was
Genesis 3:16 UNTO THE WOMAN HE SAID I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY THY SORROW AND THY CONCEPTION...
So whatever the intended number of the population of man; was to have been, it will now be greatly increased.
The above is a clue, but the answer is hidden in the parables
MATTHEW 13:35 ...I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES; I WILL UTTER THINGS WHICH HAVE BEEN KEPT SECRET FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

Click to expand...

You might want to rethink this, the increase has nothing to do with the number or population. The KJV does not properly handle the Hebrew in Gen. 3:16. Check the Hebrew, if you can, if not check out NAS, ESV, etc.

Filosofer
Consider the KJV Genesis 3:16 UNTO THE WOMAN HE SAID I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY THY SORROW AND THY CONCEPTION IN SORROW SHALT THOU BRING FORTH CHILDREN... we know that women suffer pain (sorrow) at childbirth. so we can see that the KJV is up to speed on that part.
However the parables are the big guns, I spent some considerable time analyzing one particular parable, the parable of the leaven, In the spring of 2008 I finally put the last element in place (the leaven itself) what I found left me stunned for several days, Understanding the parable was not down to the translation, each element of the parable had to be understood independently and then renamed, and then the parable had to be put back together using the new name, the difficult element was The leaven, I tried several ideas but then in the spring of 2008 I finally understood it, and there just as Matthew had said was something that had been kept secret from the foundation of the world. I now have three parables that all tell the same story, each parable telling its part of the story. As I said the parables are the big guns,

Filosofer
Consider the KJV Genesis 3:16 UNTO THE WOMAN HE SAID I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY THY SORROW AND THY CONCEPTION IN SORROW SHALT THOU BRING FORTH CHILDREN... we know that women suffer pain (sorrow) at childbirth. so we can see that the KJV is up to speed on that part.
However the parables are the big guns, I spent some considerable time analyzing one particular parable, the parable of the leaven, In the spring of 2008 I finally put the last element in place (the leaven itself) what I found left me stunned for several days, Understanding the parable was not down to the translation, each element of the parable had to be understood independently and then renamed, and then the parable had to be put back together using the new name, the difficult element was The leaven, I tried several ideas but then in the spring of 2008 I finally understood it, and there just as Matthew had said was something that had been kept secret from the foundation of the world. I now have three parables that all tell the same story, each parable telling its part of the story. As I said the parables are the big guns,