WHY ISREAL IS NOT PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST .

BABerean2 · Sep 27, 2022

HARK! said:
Behold, the days are coming, averring is Yahweh, when I will contract a new (חדשה)covenant with the house of Israel (Notice who the contract is with) and the house of Judah.

ל הִנֵּה יָמִים בָּאִים, נְאֻם-יְהוָה; וְכָרַתִּי, אֶת-בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל וְאֶת-בֵּית יְהוּדָה--בְּרִית חֲדָשָׁה.

châdash, khaw-dash'; a primitive root; to be new; causatively, to rebuild:—renew, repair.
Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)

(CLV) Jer 31:32
Not like the covenant which I contracted »with their fathers in the day I held fast- onto their hand to bring them forth from the land of Egypt, which »covenant of Mine they themselves annulled while I was Possessor over them, averring is Yahweh.

(CLV) Jer 31:33
For this is the covenant which I shall contract with the house of Israel after those days, averring is Yahweh: I will put My law within them, And I shall write it on their heart; I will become their Elohim, And they shall become My people.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

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BABerean2 · Sep 27, 2022

Other Sheep said:
Solomon's Kingdom is still divided, therefore:

The New Covenant was made with both the House of Israel and with the House of Judah in the passage below. The author of the Book of Hebrews quotes Jer. 31:31-34 word for word and starts the passage with the word "now" in verse 6.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The proof is also found below where James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes" who were his "brethren" in the "faith".

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

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HARK! · Sep 27, 2022

BABerean2 said:
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

.

(CLV) Hb 7:12
For, the priesthood being transferred, of necessity there is coming to be a transference of law also,

μετατιθεμενης
G3346

Strong's
to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other)

to transfer

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

μετατίθημι; 1 aorist μετέθηκα; present middle μετατίθεμαι: 1 aorist passive μετετεθην; to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other (see μετά, III. 2)); i. e.,
1. to transfer: τινα followed by εἰς; with the accusative of place, passive, Acts 7:16; without mention of the place, it being well known to the readers, Hebrews 11:5 (Genesis 5:24; Sir. 44:16, cf. Wis. 4:10).

Google translate:

Modern Greek

Shifted

https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto&tl=en&text=μετατιθεμενης

shift
verb
move

[intransitive, transitive] to move, or move something, from one position or place to another

Lydia shifted uncomfortably in her chair.
I shifted uneasily under his gaze.
shift from somebody/something to somebody/something The action of the novel shifts from Paris to London.
shift to somebody/something The main hub of America's dairy industry is shifting to New Mexico and Idaho.
shift something Could you help me shift some furniture?
Julie shifted her position slightly and smiled.
shift something from somebody/something to somebody/something He shifted his gaze from the child to her.
She shifted her weight from one foot to the other.
shift something to something More Japanese manufacturers are shifting production to China.

shift_2 verb - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

I'm not the High Priest; so the laws concerning the High Priest weren't transferred to me.

HARK! · Sep 27, 2022

BABerean2 said:
Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.

At Sinai, the mixed multitude were grafted into the twelve tribes of Israel. There will be twelves gates in the New Jerusalem, with the names of the Twelve tribes on the gates. There won't be a Gentile gate.

By which gate do you suppose that you will be entering?

ICONO'CLAST · Sep 27, 2022

HARK! said:
At Sinai, the mixed multitude were grafted into the twelve tribes of Israel. There will be twelves gates in the New Jerusalem, with the names of the Twelve tribes on the gates. There won't be a Gentile gate.

By which gate do you suppose that you will be entering?

Isa49:1-8
By the one described in Isa 49 as being brought by God into spiritual union with the Servant of the Lord, in the True Exodus.
Israel failed as the Covenant Son
Ex4:22.....but Jesus does not fail, and us In Him

HARK! · Sep 27, 2022

ICONO'CLAST said:
Isa49:1-8
By the one described in Isa 49 as being brought by God into spiritual union with the Servant of the Lord, in the True Exodus.

(CLV) Isa 49:5
And now, thus says Yahweh, Who formed Me from the belly to be His Servant, To restore Jacob to Him, And that Israel should be gathered back to Him; I shall be glorified in the eyes of Yahweh, And My Elohim, He will become My strength.

(CLV) Isa 49:6
And He is saying to Me: It is a slight thing for You to be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob And to restore the dispersed of Israel; I give You also for a light of the nations, To become My Salvation unto the ends of the earth.

(CLV) Isa 49:7
Thus says Yahweh, the Redeemer of Israel, His Holy One, To the One despised of soul, To the One abhorred by a nation, To the Servant of rulers: Kings, they shall see, and they will rise, And chiefs, and they shall worship, On account of Yahweh, Who is faithful, The Holy One of Israel, Who is choosing You.

ICONO'CLAST said:
Ex4:22.....but Jesus does not fail, and us In Him

(CLV) Ex 4:22
So you will say to Pharaoh: Thus says Yahweh, My son, My firstborn, is Israel.

Ephesians 2

11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations (Gentiles) in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

Not anymore!

12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world."

Not anymore! Hmmm...covenants, plural.

13 Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ."

Citizens of Israel.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier"

No difference between those who were born into the false dogma of Judaism, and those who were born into the false teaching of Paganism. All of those in Yahshua are in the truth of YHWH's perfect Torah.

15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, (dogma, Talmud) that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;"

Israel!

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it."

(CLV) Num 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian (FOREVER) statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

17 And, coming, He brings the evangel of peace to you, those afar, and peace to those near, 18 for through Him we both have had access, in one spirit, to the Father." 19 Consequently, then, no longer are you guests and sojourners, but are fellow-citizens of the saints and belong to God's family,

Carl Emerson · Sep 27, 2022

Gal 3
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

The Body of Christ comprising of all believers Jew and Gentile are decendents of Abraham by faith in Jesus the Saviour.

So when you use the word 'Israel' please do not confuse the Physical Israel - comprising of flesh decendants with Spiritual Israel - those who trust in Jesus by faith.

Please make it plain which Israel you are talking about.

HARK! · Sep 27, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Gal 3
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

The Body of Christ comprising of all believers Jew and Gentile are decendents of Abraham by faith in Jesus the Saviour.

So when you use the word 'Israel' please do not confuse the Physical Israel - comprising of flesh decendants with Spiritual Israel - those who trust in Jesus by faith.

That's right. YHWH's renewed covenant Is not with the House of Judah. It is not with the Gentiles; just as it was not at Sinai. It was with Israel. It is with Israel. Yahsua was commissioned for Israel, those who are faithful to Yahshar El.

It wasn't about bloodline, as some of the descendants of Jacob remained in Egypt (the nations) out of covenant, while some of the mixed multitude (the nations Gentiles) Became fellow citizens of Yashar El, in covenant.

I'm not confused on those points. By which gate do you suppose that you will be entering the New Jerusalem?

Carl Emerson · Sep 27, 2022

@HARK! "I'm not confused on those points. By which gate do you suppose that you will be entering the New Jerusalem?"

Well... some believers expect the New Earth including the New Jerusalem is for believing Jews.

Gentiles however are residing in the many mansions in a New Eternal Heaven.

We will have to wait and see...

ICONO'CLAST · Sep 27, 2022

HARK! said:
(CLV) Isa 49:5
And now, thus says Yahweh, Who formed Me from the belly to be His Servant, To restore Jacob to Him, And that Israel should be gathered back to Him; I shall be glorified in the eyes of Yahweh, And My Elohim, He will become My strength.

(CLV) Isa 49:6
And He is saying to Me: It is a slight thing for You to be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob And to restore the dispersed of Israel; I give You also for a light of the nations, To become My Salvation unto the ends of the earth.

(CLV) Isa 49:7
Thus says Yahweh, the Redeemer of Israel, His Holy One, To the One despised of soul, To the One abhorred by a nation, To the Servant of rulers: Kings, they shall see, and they will rise, And chiefs, and they shall worship, On account of Yahweh, Who is faithful, The Holy One of Israel, Who is choosing You.

(CLV) Ex 4:22
So you will say to Pharaoh: Thus says Yahweh, My son, My firstborn, is Israel.

Ephesians 2

11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations (Gentiles) in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

Not anymore!

12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world."

Not anymore! Hmmm...covenants, plural.

13 Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ."

Citizens of Israel.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier"

No difference between those who were born into the false dogma of Judaism, and those who were born into the false teaching of Paganism. All of those in Yahshua are in the truth of YHWH's perfect Torah.

15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, (dogma, Talmud) that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;"

Israel!

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it."

(CLV) Num 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian (FOREVER) statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

17 And, coming, He brings the evangel of peace to you, those afar, and peace to those near, 18 for through Him we both have had access, in one spirit, to the Father." 19 Consequently, then, no longer are you guests and sojourners, but are fellow-citizens of the saints and belong to God's family,

Hello Hark,
i found agreement with you on the 10 commandment issue being in the heart.
That being said......you are going to good passages in eph,etc.
Where we differ is I see Jesus as the last Adam, the True Israel, The new and True exodus, our passover, our manna, our living water.
I cor 15,

EX4:22, Isa 49=Mt 2;15 out of Egypt I have called my SON.
He alone is the true Servant, the nation failed...he is now the Covenant Head, the covenant Son.
He is the head, we are the body...can you see it? all the types have a fulfillment IN HIM...plug all your Ephesian verses into this.

Then look at 1 cor 10;
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The first Exodus they identified with MOSES.
In This final Exodus Moses gives way to the Lord Jesus Christ.

The elect remnant of Israel, elect gentiles, all part of Christian Israel.
One New Man In saving Union with Christ.

ICONO'CLAST · Sep 27, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Gal 3
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

The Body of Christ comprising of all believers Jew and Gentile are decendents of Abraham by faith in Jesus the Saviour.

So when you use the word 'Israel' please do not confuse the Physical Israel - comprising of flesh decendants with Spiritual Israel - those who trust in Jesus by faith.

Please make it plain which Israel you are talking about.

Two different words....sperma...physical Israel....Teknon ....children of promise

Guojing · Sep 27, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
@HARK! "I'm not confused on those points. By which gate do you suppose that you will be entering the New Jerusalem?"

Well... some believers expect the New Earth including the New Jerusalem is for believing Jews.

Gentiles however are residing in the many mansions in a New Eternal Heaven.

We will have to wait and see...

Interesting, it appears that you also believe in separate eternal destinies for these 2 groups:

True Israel, or believing Jews, will inherit the new Earth.

but

The Body of Christ will reside in a new Heaven?

Is that correct?

Carl Emerson · Sep 28, 2022

Guojing said:
Interesting, it appears that you also believe in separate eternal destinies for these 2 groups:

True Israel, or believing Jews, will inherit the new Earth.

but

The Body of Christ will reside in a new Heaven?

Is that correct?

To say I believe it is an overstatement.

I have a hunch that it is not as cut and dried as Hark suggests.

Jesus speaks of the many mansions in Heaven and the audience was Jews.

It may well be a 'both and' rather than an 'either or'...

We may have the choice to be here or there...

By the way '"True Israel" is not just believing Jews, but believers period, that is in fact the Body of Christ...

Guojing · Sep 28, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
To say I believe it is an overstatement.

I have a hunch that it is not as cut and dried as Hark suggests.

Jesus speaks of the many mansions in Heaven and the audience was Jews.

It may well be a 'both and' rather than an 'either or'...

We may have the choice to be here or there...

By the way '"True Israel" is not just believing Jews, but believers period, that is in fact the Body of Christ...

But as hark is trying to say, if you believe that true Israel also consist of the body of Christ, you have to be clear which tribe and which door they will be going thru.

You should not combine them now, and then separate them later, as and when it is convenient for you.

Carl Emerson · Sep 28, 2022

The foundation of the City is Apostolic not tribal...

Guojing · Sep 28, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
The foundation of the City is Apostolic not tribal...

Israel is always seen as the 12 tribes. Jesus himself promised the 12

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Unless you are claiming this promise is no longer valid, your point makes no sense.

Carl Emerson · Sep 28, 2022

Do you agree that the foundation of the New Jerusalem is Apostolic?

Guojing · Sep 28, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Do you agree that the foundation of the New Jerusalem is Apostolic?

I have no idea what you are implying by that statement, could you elaborate what you consider to be the implications of that, with suitable scripture?

Carl Emerson · Sep 29, 2022

Revelation 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The Apostles Represent the Body of Christ - now the very foundation of the New Jerusalem.

Guojing · Sep 29, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Revelation 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The Apostles Represent the Body of Christ - now the very foundation of the New Jerusalem.

There is nothing in that verse that allows you to conclude that "The Apostles Represent the Body of Christ - now the very foundation of the New Jerusalem".

As I said, you cannot anyhow insert the BOC into passages as and when it is convenient for you.

WHY ISREAL IS NOT PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST .

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