Why Is This An Issue?

DMagoh said:

Sorry, but none of those words have anything to do with "men committed indecent acts with other men".

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GwynApNudd said:

But they have everything to do with translating the verse correctly in the first place:


And even more to do with correctly translating 1 Cor 6:9-10; 1 Tim 1:9-10, Lev 18:22, and Lev 20:13, which form the basis of understanding of Romans 1:27 being about "man-lying" rather than the equally valid understandings that Romans 1:26-27 is about sexual addiction or temple prostitution.

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Please explain how any of that has anything to do with "men committed indecent acts with other men"?

DMagoh said:

Please explain how any of that has anything to do with "men committed indecent acts with other men"?

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DMagoh, a word of caution. Do not attempt to discuss the Spirit-discerned meaning of words with anyone who consistently shows himself to be unaligned with God's Word.

It becomes a stumbling block for the others who are listening.

You know what God's Word says. Don't debate truth just because false teachers want to make their unaligned with God's Word interpretations correct.

Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 2 Timothy 2:14

DMagoh, a word of caution. Do not attempt to discuss the Spirit-discerned meaning of words with anyone who consistently shows himself to be unaligned with God's Word.

It becomes a stumbling block for the others who are listening.

You know what God's Word says. Don't debate truth just because false teachers want to make their unaligned with God's Word interpretations correct.

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..is that another way of saying: "Don't confuse people with facts, tell them what they need to know and warn them not to listen to anyone who disagrees with us!"?
tulc( )

DMagoh said:

Interesting that Romans 1:27 never mentions those two words.

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:27

All I see is...

• They abandoned natural relations with women;
• They are inflamed in lust for other men;
• They have committed indecent acts with other men; and
• They receive the due penalty for their perversion.

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Much better.

You are still using the word "perversion" which I think is loaded with translators' bias. The more widely used translations "error" or "wandering" are also more accurate and make clearer in English what the Greek actually says. That is, that their sexual immorality is the result of (and punishment for) their idolatry.

But this is an improvement.

tulc said:

..is that another way of saying: "Don't confuse people with facts, tell them what they need to know and warn them not to listen to anyone who disagrees us!"?
tulc( )

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No, it's just Zaac's way of putting his fingers in his ears and singing "La la la ....I can't hear you. So, there! "

He has decided that since he can't respond to me, if he can convince himself that I am "become sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal," then he can ignore me.

DMagoh said:

Please explain how any of that has anything to do with "men committed indecent acts with other men"?

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Well for one thing, the phrase "committed indecent acts" is an editorial addition by the translator, and is not part of the inspired scriptures. The Greek manuscripts merely say αρσενες εν αρσεσιν (men with men).

For another, the only connection this verse has with the other four verses is the word αρσενες (men), which is part of the compound word αρσενοκοιται (man-bedder) in 1 Cor 6:9-10 and 1 Tim 1:9-10, and which refers back to משכב זכר (mishkav zakur, "lying with a man") in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. And which was tranlated in the Greek Septuigent as αρσενος κοιτην.

Without this connection, the claim that Romans 1:27 is about homosexuality would no longer be valid in light of the strong claims for reading it as sexual addiction or temple prostitution.

And so, a proper understanding of the Greek words αρσενοκοιται, κοιτην, and αρσενες and the Hebrew words משכב and זכר is essential to make the claim that Romans 1:27 is about homosexuality.