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No. You asserted it.
No, I posted a video of the physical demonstration of it.
No, it's not. If it was, you'ld be lecturing at Ivy League universities instead of posting on an irrelevant religious internet forum.
My first major presentation is to a large body of physicists the UK courtesy of a young genius who I met here. He says my model has profound implications for quantum gauge theory. We'll see what his colleagues think.
Wish me luck!
We are waiting on the results, with baited breath.
No, I posted a video of the physical demonstration of it.
My first major presentation is to a large body of physicists the UK courtesy of a young genius who I met here. He says my model has profound implications for quantum gauge theory. We'll see what his colleagues think.
Yes that is why the bible says that we all know about God and His invisible attributes are seen in all His creation so that no one is without excuse. When I look at the birds in the sky I see God. When I see a new born baby I see God and when I look at the moon and stars I see God.I believe that God created man with only an understanding of his own world. Our universe and existence had a beginning, so God created with in us the thought of beginnings, so we could adequately understand our world. However true existence is outside our universe of atoms and matter. Although no matter how hard we try we can never understand it.
Yes that is why the bible says that we all know about God and His invisible attributes are seen in all His creation so that no one is without excuse.
When I look at the birds in the sky I see God. When I see a new born baby I see God and when I look at the moon and stars I see God.
I believe that God created man with only an understanding of his own world. Our universe and existence had a beginning, so God created with in us the thought of beginnings, so we could adequately understand our world. However true existence is outside our universe of atoms and matter. Although no matter how hard we try we can never understand it.
When I look at the birds in the sky I see God
When I see a new born baby I see God
and when I look at the moon and stars I see God.
Yes that is why the bible says that we all know about God and His invisible attributes are seen in all His creation so that no one is without excuse. When I look at the birds in the sky I see God. When I see a new born baby I see God and when I look at the moon and stars I see God.
God the creator is separate from His creation. God was there before time began so He is not subject to time and space and the creation of matter.But then there isn't nothing. There's a creator, which means that there is still something, not nothing.
Yes that is something to do with the multi universe model. Like bubbles in a steam bath they keep on forming. It has that science fiction air about it. Even so it still needs a beginning and something before that first bang to start it off.Perhaps it isn't different or special at all. In some models, the Big Bang is only one in a series of many such Big Bangs.
Well we know from the naturalistic method of measuring things which is used for everything else in our existence including the universe that for every effect there has to be a cause. According to the laws of thermodynamics there had to be a beginning in the universe. The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant. The amount of energy available for work is running out. So if total mass energy is limited and the amount of usable energy is decreasing then the universe cannot have existed forever, otherwise it would already have exhausted all usable energy. So the universe began a long time ago with a lot of usable energy, and is now running down. If the beginning of the universe started space and matter then it also started time as relativity tells us that time, space and matter are all linked. So what was before the universe started if there was no time, space and matter.No, there doesn't have to be pure nothingness.
As I said before God is separate from His creation. The universe had a beginning and has time and space and matter. God did not have a beginning as He was the creator of time and has always been there.How?
I cant remember what I was referring to then. But God is all things and in all thing as the bible says. So if He created the quantum world then His qualities are in the quantum world but not limited to the quantum world. If the quantum world make the material world or the physical world then He is also in the physical world. But the material world may just be a manifestation of the quantum world. It maybe that its something to do with the quantum world which is what goes on when we die and the physical world is no more.Because you said that the physical stuff would be God in your earlier response to my comment, thus indicating that God would have to be physical.
I have already answered this.Then what you are saying is that God, who is physical, created himself.
It is not an argument from ignorance as I have already explained this. God has always been there as He created time, space and matter. Because the universe had a beginning it has a cause. Because God didn't have a beginning He does not have a cause and was always there.Argument from ignorance. The lack of an explanation for some phenomenon does not mean Goddidit is supported.
You keep saying this but I cant remember saying in the sense you are indicating like God is a physical being. He created physical things but He isn't physical Himself. The only time God became physical is when He sent His Son Jesus to save us. You will have to link what I said so I can see the context.But you just said that God could be physical, which means that he isn't apart from his creation at all. At this point, you seem to be shooting various ideas and hoping that they hit the target in some consistent pattern.
God didn't have a beginning unlike the universe. God created the universe. The universe had a beginning so therefore has a cause. According to the law of relativity time and space are connected, So when God created the space and matter of the universe He also created time. Because God created time He is not subject to time as He made it. Time started with the creation of the universe. Thats why it is running down. But God is everywhere and in all things. That doesn't mean is is a physical being or is restricted to the physical dimension. The physical/material dimension maybe the end result of an invisble world. The material world will pass away and the spiritual world will go on.Only by contradicting yourself. If God is physical and he creates the physical world, then (1) he is not apart from his creation (contrary to your claim above), and (2) he is self-creating. If we follow this reasoning, God is therefore equivalent to the universe and the universe is self-creating. You've gotten yourself into a theological mess whereby you've indirectly committed yourself to something resembling pantheism.
OK so what I have understood this is to do with experiments like with the Large Hadron Collider. This is to do with the higgs field and how particles gain some matter going through this field like moving through treacle. It is also associated with particle that are suppose to pop in and out of existence. There are all these different particles that they have discovered like quarks which are the smallest they know of. There maybe more but I think they are pretty close to nothing.To my knowledge, that's not correct at all. As I understand it, strictly speaking, even virtual particles don't come into existence from nothing.
I did answer that before. I thought it was a silly question. Because it cannot be answered. To be able to answer this question then science would have to be able to go into another dimension and find out for sure. As we know with indirect evidence this can be misleading. When scientist say that have discovered something in this area it is soon disputed and shown to be wrong and this has been the same for many years. Its not like we can go into a lab and test this and verify it. So its like me saying when you see heaven will you believe there is an after life.steve, you still haven't answered my question. Here it is again:If the evidence that brings to bear eventually does support some naturalistic model of cosmogony, will you accept that model as probably true, or will you continue to insist that the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo is true? I keep asking this because it seems to me that, despite demanding evidence for current cosmological models, whatever evidence is brought to bear is ultimately immaterial to whether or not you accept or reject those models. You will reject them out of hand anyway because they do not support creatio ex nihilo. Your demand for evidence therefore seems disingenuous, as no amount of evidence will ever sway you to accept a model inconsistent with doctrine. Or am I wrong about that?
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Be sure to tell them about the time god showed up in your room and you had a real life conversation with him.
God the creator is separate from His creation. God was there before time began so He is not subject to time and space and the creation of matter.
Well we know from the naturalistic method of measuring things which is used for everything else in our existence including the universe that for every effect there has to be a cause. According to the laws of thermodynamics there had to be a beginning in the universe. The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant. The amount of energy available for work is running out. So if total mass energy is limited and the amount of usable energy is decreasing then the universe cannot have existed forever, otherwise it would already have exhausted all usable energy. So the universe began a long time ago with a lot of usable energy, and is now running down. If the beginning of the universe started space and matter then it also started time as relativity tells us that time, space and matter are all linked. So what was before the universe started if there was no time, space and matter.
As I said before God is separate from His creation. The universe had a beginning and has time and space and matter. God did not have a beginning as He was the creator of time and has always been there.
I cant remember what I was referring to then. But God is all things and in all thing as the bible says. So if He created the quantum world then His qualities are in the quantum world but not limited to the quantum world. If the quantum world make the material world or the physical world then He is also in the physical world. But the material world may just be a manifestation of the quantum world. It maybe that its something to do with the quantum world which is what goes on when we die and the physical world is no more.
It is not an argument from ignorance as I have already explained this. God has always been there as He created time, space and matter. Because the universe had a beginning it has a cause. Because God didn't have a beginning He does not have a cause and was always there.
You keep saying this but I cant remember saying in the sense you are indicating like God is a physical being. He created physical things but He isn't physical Himself. The only time God became physical is when He sent His Son Jesus to save us. You will have to link what I said so I can see the context.
God didn't have a beginning unlike the universe. God created the universe. The universe had a beginning so therefore has a cause. According to the law of relativity time and space are connected, So when God created the space and matter of the universe He also created time. Because God created time He is not subject to time as He made it. Time started with the creation of the universe. Thats why it is running down. But God is everywhere and in all things. That doesn't mean is is a physical being or is restricted to the physical dimension. The physical/material dimension maybe the end result of an invisble world. The material world will pass away and the spiritual world will go on.
OK so what I have understood this is to do with experiments like with the Large Hadron Collider. This is to do with the higgs field and how particles gain some matter going through this field like moving through treacle. It is also associated with particle that are suppose to pop in and out of existence. There are all these different particles that they have discovered like quarks which are the smallest they know of. There maybe more but I think they are pretty close to nothing.
I did answer that before. I thought it was a silly question. Because it cannot be answered. To be able to answer this question then science would have to be able to go into another dimension and find out for sure. As we know with indirect evidence this can be misleading. When scientist say that have discovered something in this area it is soon disputed and shown to be wrong and this has been the same for many years. Its not like we can go into a lab and test this and verify it. So its like me saying when you see heaven will you believe there is an after life.
I think you are trying to force me into a corner to commit to something that is impossible to prove. I debate this subject because I enjoy it. It is not purely because I thing that I can prove God through science. That would also be impossible. That is why we have faith. But I am not believing through a blind faith. This is why I look at things like this and some of the great minds in science who also believe in God are the same but even have more understanding of Gods great work with creation. I believe science can indirectly show God especially in the quantum world. But I dont need this as I see God when I look at the stars at night or a new born baby. The holy spirit is my witness and speaks to me all the time about Gods greatness.
So if science happened to claim they found some naturalistic cause that proves this is how the universe and existence started I would doubt it and look into it knowing that in the near future it will be proven wrong. Even if it could be shown believers would say that God maybe started the process naturally which is what some believe anyway. But nothing in this field including proving that God didn't create the universe and existence can be proven the way you are saying with great certainty. But this is more or less the same with other claims like with evolution and genetics. Scientists and atheists claim they have the proof that shows there cant be a God and believers say they are wrong and have misinterpreted the evidence. I think it will continue that way for a long time.
Ive got to find another past time. It never ends.
I find your lack of sincerity, disturbing.
You keep saying that and I keep saying that God is separate from His creation. We are talking about the creation of time and space and matter. Before that there was no time, space or matter to go by. God started all that.If God was there, then there wasn't a state of nothingness. There was God.
No we dont really know. Of course I will say God. But whatever there was had to be something of greatness as it had to always be there.What was before? We don't know.
I have already explained this. But surely you have heard or read anyone who has attempted to explain what was before existence began when it comes to God. They always say He was always there. This is a common statement. What I have said about God being apart form His creation and time and space is a common idea. God creating time, space and matter is a common idea as well. So it isn't an assertion of mine it is a common one from those who try to explain Gods role in creation and that He was always there.This is just bare assertion. You need to justify this.
Well this is a common idea so I will post some links that will explain it better.I'm sorry, but this reads like a theologically confused mess.
I have included the answer to this in the links attached above.You need to justify this. How do you know God was always there? Perhaps the universe has always been here in some form, and only the current state of the universe had a definite beginning.
Included aboveYou need to justify this.
Well they havnt established this yet but there can't be to much more. Its like they have kept going down and down and down to a smaller and smaller existence and now they are closer than ever before at the point of nothing. When scientists got the first results from the large hadron collider even though they were excited about finding the Higgs boson they were a little disappointed as they thought there would be more. But the higgs field is suppose to make tiny particles that are almost nothing take on some mass like there going through this treacle. Virtual particles are suppose to pop in and out of existence. Thats why they are seeing this crazy world because its looking at how our material world starts before we even see it.Pretty close to nothing? No, not nothing.
No I said if they can prove that all of existence happened by a naturalistic method for sure and was testable I would have to question my belief. This is a hypothetical question you are asking me. So I am answering it in the hypothetical. My qualification is about the reality as it stands now which is probably a very, very, very ,very long way from that. In fact I cant see how they can do it. But hypothetically if they can then I hypothetically will question my belief that God did it and that would probably lead me to hypothetically question there even being a God.This is different to the answer you provided in this thread. Here it seems as though you are basically saying that you will continue to uphold the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo regardless of what the evidence says.
You keep saying that and I keep saying that God is separate from His creation.
We are talking about the creation of time and space and matter. Before that there was no time, space or matter to go by. God started all that.
But its hard for us to comprehend what was before time and space. In our reality of cause and effect everything has to have a beginning. If it has a beginning then it has a cause. So if the universe and existence was created and had a beginning then something had to make that.
I have already explained this. But surely you have heard or read anyone who has attempted to explain what was before existence began when it comes to God. They always say He was always there. This is a common statement. What I have said about God being apart form His creation and time and space is a common idea. God creating time, space and matter is a common idea as well. So it isn't an assertion of mine it is a common one from those who try to explain Gods role in creation and that He was always there.
Something had to always be there. Everything had a cause and effect. Anything that has a cause has a beginning. Anything that has a cause had to have come from something. That something had to have come from something add infinity. So something had to be apart from time and space to be there all the time because we cant have anything before creation because that is when time and space started.
Please refer to the links in the next answer.
I have included the answer to this in the links attached above.
But this is when time and space started according to science. So what could have existed before this and in what form. There isn't any form apart from God who can exists apart from this.
If the universe had a beginning then something had to start it. If you say that there was something before this then something had to start that. But it cant have a start because there was no time.
Well they havnt established this yet but there can't be to much more. Its like they have kept going down and down and down to a smaller and smaller existence and now they are closer than ever before at the point of nothing. When scientists got the first results from the large hadron collider even though they were excited about finding the Higgs boson they were a little disappointed as they thought there would be more. But the higgs field is suppose to make tiny particles that are almost nothing take on some mass like there going through this treacle. Virtual particles are suppose to pop in and out of existence. Thats why they are seeing this crazy world because its looking at how our material world starts before we even see it.
they experience the field by absorbing and emitting a constant stream of "virtual photons" - photons that momentarily pop in and out of existence just for the purpose of mediating the particle-field interaction.
How Does the Higgs Particle Give Things Mass? | Higgs Boson
No I said if they can prove that all of existence happened by a naturalistic method for sure and was testable I would have to question my belief. This is a hypothetical question you are asking me. So I am answering it in the hypothetical. My qualification is about the reality as it stands now which is probably a very, very, very ,very long way from that. In fact I cant see how they can do it. But hypothetically if they can then I hypothetically will question my belief that God did it and that would probably lead me to hypothetically question there even being a God.
But I notice how you avoided to answer the same kind of question I posed to you hypothetically.
Look I dont know all these things and neither do you. We can only try to understand. But it is said that God was separate from His creation as in making it. You are taking what I have said and turning it into something else. We are talking about the event of creation and not about God now and how and when He can interact with His creation. If God is all things and in everything then He is able to be both at the same time and also experience being separate from both these things at the same time. I dont fully understand this and nobody does. Its beyond our comprehension. But thats the same as trying to understand how something can always be there or how quantum entanglement can cause two particles to act as though they are connected and respond instantaneously with each other even if they are on opposite sides of the universe.This contradicts what you said earlier. But it also raises the question of how God is able to interact with his creation, given that he is separate from it.
I already have twice now. If time was created with the universe then there was no time before that. Scientists have even said this.You need to justify this claim.
Ok but I am only going by what the bible says about God and how something could exist before time and space that could make a universe. It is sort of self supporting. If the universe had a cause the what caused it. The universe is something that is amazing. It is complex and well look at it. It then made life. It is finely tuned for life. If there was no time and space before it began and yet time and space and matter began when it did then something also caused time and space to come into existence. It doesn't have to be God but it certainly has to be something that can make all these things. That something has to be greater than what it made. It just all speaks of design and that something created it. It could have come from a naturalistic self creating cause.And why does that something have to be a God creating universes ex nihilo? If you want to use our experience of cause-and-effect as part of your argument, then bear in mind that we only ever observe things beginning to exist ex materia. You will need to modify your argument accordingly so as to avoid special pleading for creatio ex nihilo.
Thats correct but I was responding to when you said it was a bare assertion when I said that God was always there. I said it was a common thing that people say that God is always there and here is everywhere. This is in the bible so its not my assertion and is a common thing people say even if they dont believe in God. Because that is how people see God. He is classed as supernatural isn't he. But if you want me to prove that well thats a different thing. We are then going back to square 1 about whether God is true and may as well end the conversation now. Otherwise ewe are just talking about a hypothesis with hasn't been proven but as I said may have some indirect evidence.Being common doesn't mean it's true. It still requires justification. How do know God was always there? How do you know God didn't "begin to exist?"
Because scientist say it wasn't and that was the big bang, (the singularity). Even Stephen Hawkins says this. So this is when everything started, time, space and matter.Why can't the universe itself be the "something" that is always there? As I mentioned in my previous post, perhaps the universe has always been here in some form, and only the current state of the universe had a definite beginning between 13 and 14 billion years ago.
Ok well I was only referring because you said It was a bare assertion and needed to justify what I said. I think we are starting to go in circles now.No, thank you. Unless you want me to start posting links in return? It won't be a productive conversation, however.
What state, there was nothing to have any state with, no time, no space nothing to make any state. This is where scientists say they dont know and people like Lawrence Krause start to say nothing is really something but cant tell you what that is. They say its nothing but then begin to describe something. But when someone says but you are describing something they say its not really something because its a sort of special nothing.No, not necessarily. The universe could have existed prior, but in a different state.
Well this is where i say God comes in because He was always there as the bible says. He was there before time and whatever state He was in He was there and was able to create everything and start it going. Something had to always be there and it had to have the ability to start time, space and matter.Which poses a conundrum for a supernatural mind. It's trapped forever in the same state of mind.
I'm getting a sense of deja vu here. No because this is the point they are getting close to nothing but not quite nothing. There will always be something in our realm whether it be our reality or the quantum world. But at some point there had to be nothing as even the tiny little particles down in the quantum world had to come from somewhere and have a beginning. This is why quantum physics is relating back to the beginning of the universe and scientists are using it to say that nothing is really something. Just like the majority of the universe which is black empty space which looks like nothing but ha something in it still at the quantum level. But before the big bang there wasn't even this as time, space and matter began. This is why they are doing the experiments with the large hadron collider. They are trying to see how something can come from nothing.Which isn't nothing.
The same hypothetical question you asked me. If they do find that there must have been a creator for the universe and existence would you then believe that there was a God or a supernatural creator.What question?
That's an important question to consider, given that the God you posit is separate from his creation, yet able to interact with it.Look I dont know all these things and neither do you. We can only try to understand. But it is said that God was separate from His creation as in making it. You are taking what I have said and turning it into something else. We are talking about the event of creation and not about God now and how and when He can interact with His creation.
If I'm not allowed to do that, then neither are you. On the one hand, you appeal to our intuitive understanding of causality as evidence that the universe must have a cause, yet on the other you demand special exceptions from that understanding so as to accommodate theological doctrine.But you keep saying God cant do this or that according to how you understand with the cause and effect laws that we know of in our reality. You are applying that thinking to something that doesn't even have this in the first place.
No, not necessarily. Some physicists have posited oscillating universe models, which combine the Big Bang and the Big Crunch in a cycle of expansion and contraction.I already have twice now. If time was created with the universe then there was no time before that. Scientists have even said this.
If time began at the Big Bang, then the universe has always existed, in that there is no time in which the universe has not existed.So therefore since the universe had a beginning it must have had a cause. If there was no time and space before the universe then there could be anything before it that was measurable as far as time and space. The bible says that God was there before time.
Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang.
The Beginning of Time - Stephen Hawking
Consider this passage a bit more critically. It is describing a time before time began.No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)
We don't know. Scientists are trying to figure it out. One thing that annoys me, however, is when apologists dismiss every naturalistic hypothesis out of hand simply because it does not meet the highest epistemic standards, only to assert that Goddidit wins by default, even though their justification for this claim barely rises to the lowest epistemic standards.Ok but I am only going by what the bible says about God and how something could exist before time and space that could make a universe. It is sort of self supporting. If the universe had a cause the what caused it. The universe is something that is amazing. It is complex and well look at it. It then made life. It is finely tuned for life. If there was no time and space before it began and yet time and space and matter began when it did then something also caused time and space to come into existence. It doesn't have to be God but it certainly has to be something that can make all these things. That something has to be greater than what it made. It just all speaks of design and that something created it. It could have come from a naturalistic self creating cause.
If it is when time began, then strictly speaking, there was no time in which the universe did not exist. It has existed for all time.Because scientist say it wasn't and that was the big bang, (the singularity). Even Stephen Hawkins says this. So this is when everything started, time, space and matter.
What state? A timeless, spaceless state of the universe. Obviously very different to the current state of the universe.What state, there was nothing to have any state with, no time, no space nothing to make any state.
Perhaps that's because a pure philosophical nothingness is not a real state of affairs. Perhaps it's not even a physically possible state of affairs. It may be the case that we have taken the concept 'nothing,' which enjoys widespread applicability in everyday life, and turned it into a Platonic ideal with no applicability to anything whatsoever.This is where scientists say they dont know and people like Lawrence Krause start to say nothing is really something but cant tell you what that is. They say its nothing but then begin to describe something. But when someone says but you are describing something they say its not really something because its a sort of special nothing.
If God existed before time (or without time) then wasn't God in a timeless, changeless state? If God is a mind, as many theists claim, then wouldn't he be trapped in a timeless thought? How then would he able to decide to create; unless the decision to create is the only thought he is capable of? But if that is the case, then the existence of the universe is necessary and inevitable, in that God could not have decided otherwise.Well this is where i say God comes in because He was always there as the bible says. He was there before time and whatever state He was in He was there and was able to create everything and start it going. Something had to always be there and it had to have the ability to start time, space and matter.
But not the philosophical nothing you are describing. That's an important difference.I'm getting a sense of deja vu here. No because this is the point they are getting close to nothing but not quite nothing. There will always be something in our realm whether it be our reality or the quantum world. But at some point there had to be nothing as even the tiny little particles down in the quantum world had to come from somewhere and have a beginning. This is why quantum physics is relating back to the beginning of the universe and scientists are using it to say that nothing is really something. Just like the majority of the universe which is black empty space which looks like nothing but ha something in it still at the quantum level. But before the big bang there wasn't even this as time, space and matter began. This is why they are doing the experiments with the large hadron collider. They are trying to see how something can come from nothing.
I answered this question in a previous thread.The same hypothetical question you asked me. If they do find that there must have been a creator for the universe and existence would you then believe that there was a God or a supernatural creator.
Look I dont know all these things and neither do you. We can only try to understand. But it is said that God was separate from His creation as in making it. You are taking what I have said and turning it into something else. We are talking about the event of creation and not about God now and how and when He can interact with His creation. If God is all things and in everything then He is able to be both at the same time and also experience being separate from both these things at the same time. I dont fully understand this and nobody does. Its beyond our comprehension. But thats the same as trying to understand how something can always be there or how quantum entanglement can cause two particles to act as though they are connected and respond instantaneously with each other even if they are on opposite sides of the universe.
But you keep saying God cant do this or that according to how you understand with the cause and effect laws that we know of in our reality. You are applying that thinking to something that doesn't even have this in the first place.
I already have twice now. If time was created with the universe then there was no time before that. Scientists have even said this.
So therefore since the universe had a beginning it must have had a cause. If there was no time and space before the universe then there could be anything before it that was measurable as far as time and space. The bible says that God was there before time.
Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang.
The Beginning of Time - Stephen Hawking
No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)
Ok but I am only going by what the bible says about God and how something could exist before time and space that could make a universe. It is sort of self supporting. If the universe had a cause the what caused it. The universe is something that is amazing. It is complex and well look at it. It then made life. It is finely tuned for life. If there was no time and space before it began and yet time and space and matter began when it did then something also caused time and space to come into existence. It doesn't have to be God but it certainly has to be something that can make all these things. That something has to be greater than what it made. It just all speaks of design and that something created it. It could have come from a naturalistic self creating cause.
Thats correct but I was responding to when you said it was a bare assertion when I said that God was always there. I said it was a common thing that people say that God is always there and here is everywhere. This is in the bible so its not my assertion and is a common thing people say even if they dont believe in God. Because that is how people see God. He is classed as supernatural isn't he. But if you want me to prove that well thats a different thing. We are then going back to square 1 about whether God is true and may as well end the conversation now. Otherwise ewe are just talking about a hypothesis with hasn't been proven but as I said may have some indirect evidence.
Because scientist say it wasn't and that was the big bang, (the singularity). Even Stephen Hawkins says this. So this is when everything started, time, space and matter.
Ok well I was only referring because you said It was a bare assertion and needed to justify what I said. I think we are starting to go in circles now.
What state, there was nothing to have any state with, no time, no space nothing to make any state. This is where scientists say they dont know and people like Lawrence Krause start to say nothing is really something but cant tell you what that is. They say its nothing but then begin to describe something. But when someone says but you are describing something they say its not really something because its a sort of special nothing.
Well this is where i say God comes in because He was always there as the bible says. He was there before time and whatever state He was in He was there and was able to create everything and start it going. Something had to always be there and it had to have the ability to start time, space and matter.
I'm getting a sense of deja vu here. No because this is the point they are getting close to nothing but not quite nothing. There will always be something in our realm whether it be our reality or the quantum world. But at some point there had to be nothing as even the tiny little particles down in the quantum world had to come from somewhere and have a beginning. This is why quantum physics is relating back to the beginning of the universe and scientists are using it to say that nothing is really something. Just like the majority of the universe which is black empty space which looks like nothing but ha something in it still at the quantum level. But before the big bang there wasn't even this as time, space and matter began. This is why they are doing the experiments with the large hadron collider. They are trying to see how something can come from nothing.
The same hypothetical question you asked me. If they do find that there must have been a creator for the universe and existence would you then believe that there was a God or a supernatural creator.
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