Why is there a church?

[firesky112]

It seems to me that the church should not even exist. People should only meet together and work towards reaching their ideals without giving up money to an institution. Community and fellowship should exist, but definitely NOT priests or pastors. If one person claims to have a divine connection with God, they should teach everyone how to have this connection without preaching about the bible.
The bible isn't what allows people to have a divine connection to Jesus or God anyways. It's a person's commitment to an ideal that Christ would approve of. The bible can inspire people because of the story of Jesus, but you only need to hear the story to be inspired. You don't need the bible.

My point is that Christianity seems to care less and less about the person than they do about spreading the word of God and making the Church stronger. WHO CARES about the bible, and who gives a crap about the church? I think people care more about a divine connection with God and Jesus that can help them make their dreams come true by doing what is good. Really, I think there are a lot of people who are extremely bored with the church and I see a lot of people that turn away from it because of how it tries to conform people under a set of rules.

 

[salida]

firesky22--

Your missing the point of why church exists to begin with. Just because there are self serving churches more and more instead of those who truly worship Christ - this doesn't change the fact of why the church exists to begin with. The true church of Jesus Christ doesn't change with the pop culture like many churches do which tend to be self seeking instead of God seeking.

***Hebrews 10:25 - Don't forsake the assembling of yourselfs together.

God uses true churches to help out in the food pantry, outreach, and the list goes on. They help the general community. Giving $ to the church is holy unto the Lord - I'm not just giving money but giving of your time and service for God. The church isn't a bank but its a group of people who really give themselves for the glory and the worship of the Lord. These people are my eternal family on earth and they will be in heaven. We support each other and have the same view of the world. Just like you hang out with your friends because you have something in common and the same goal in life.

There are churches that are sincere and not self serving. This is the church I belong to not the "so called churches who ask for $$ all the time like they are a bank!" Yes, churches do need $$ for maintain the building and support those - so they can give to the community - but not make one rich financially.

 

[ebia]

It seems to me that the church should not even exist. People should only meet together and work towards reaching their ideals without giving up money to an institution. Community and fellowship should exist,

If you have community and fellowship, if you have Christians working together for Christ, then you have the Church.

but definitely NOT priests or pastors. If one person claims to have a divine connection with God, they should teach everyone how to have this connection without preaching about the bible.
The bible isn't what allows people to have a divine connection to Jesus or God anyways. It's a person's commitment to an ideal that Christ would approve of. The bible can inspire people because of the story of Jesus, but you only need to hear the story to be inspired. You don't need the bible.

The bible is a useful tool in ensuring that the stories stay true, that bits of the gospel aren't missed out, that we understand those stories....

My point is that Christianity seems to care less and less about the person than they do about spreading the word of God and making the Church stronger. WHO CARES about the bible, and who gives a crap about the church?

The church can, has, and always will stuff things up, but Christianity is not a religion of personal individuality. It's a collective thing, and whenever you have an assemby of Christians you have the Church.

I think people care more about a divine connection with God and Jesus that can help them make their dreams come true by doing what is good.

Maybe, but that isn't Christianity.

Really, I think there are a lot of people who are extremely bored with the church and I see a lot of people that turn away from it because of how it tries to conform people under a set of rules.

See above.

 

[tapero]

It seems to me that the church should not even exist. People should only meet together and work towards reaching their ideals without giving up money to an institution. Community and fellowship should exist, but definitely NOT priests or pastors. If one person claims to have a divine connection with God, they should teach everyone how to have this connection without preaching about the bible.
The bible isn't what allows people to have a divine connection to Jesus or God anyways. It's a person's commitment to an ideal that Christ would approve of. The bible can inspire people because of the story of Jesus, but you only need to hear the story to be inspired. You don't need the bible.

My point is that Christianity seems to care less and less about the person than they do about spreading the word of God and making the Church stronger. WHO CARES about the bible, and who gives a crap about the church? I think people care more about a divine connection with God and Jesus that can help them make their dreams come true by doing what is good. Really, I think there are a lot of people who are extremely bored with the church and I see a lot of people that turn away from it because of how it tries to conform people under a set of rules.

Without the bible we wouldn't know much about God. The bible is very important.

God has given us pastors and so, churches do have them. Sheep (the flock) need a leader, the pastor.

The bible should not be ignored at all, and without it, have no idea of what God is teaching us and again, who God is.

All Christians have a divine connection to Christ. A pastor is equal to an attender at church; should not have authority over a church, churches should be congregation ruled, not pastor/priest ruled. the pastor is just a person, just a christian..that's it'.

It is common that people believe that by doing good they are a Christian. This is not true, as salvation is by faith in Christ alone.

It is not by what we do, never was either.

On judgement day, the only thing Christians will be judged for is their works. This is not for salvatoin, as salvation is assured to any who are Christian. The judgement on our works is for loss or reward only in heaven.

The non Christian is judged for their sin, or same as their unbelief in Christ.

No matter how good a non christian is, will never merit salvation.

Doing good is a good thing for all to do, I'm not saying it isn't, but it is clear in the bible that this is not how salvation comes; however many religions other than christianity and many without a religion believe the same.

A good church does not lay out rules (exceptions for members - such as if member commits adultry then church discipline occurs.) This is not in all churches, but only those churches that practice church discipline.

Church discipline is a good thing.

but aside from that, as far as making rules, there should be no rules.

in as far as what one must do, etc.

So, if you go to a church and hear of rules, go to another.

As is Gods job to work in us and change us and we participate in the process.

It is not a committment to an ideal that God desires.

It is a relationship with Christ which is required to become a Christian, that is to say, to believe in Christ, the relationship then begins.

As for boredom, try another church.

Also note, Christians go thru hills and valleys, and so depending on their walk with God, they may be bored, etc, which is okay, as we all go thru many differnt things.

the church is the people, not the building.

the building is where to meet.

money is needed to upkeep a building, pay salaries, etc.

of course corruption can and does occur.

I know my first church attended, pastor spent all week preparing sermon, visiting pple in hospital, helping members etc, a full time job and deserve to be paid and have health insurance, etc. He was terrific. He knew only the Holy Spirit would change us, so never preached shoulds or must, as such should never be done. Bible has it all.

So again, there are great churches out there, and can be found.

blessings,
tapero

 

[WarEagle]

Community and fellowship should exist, but definitely NOT priests or pastors. If one person claims to have a divine connection with God, they should teach everyone how to have this connection without preaching about the bible.

Any pastor or priest who tells you that he has some "divine connection with God" that is not available to all Christians who have the Holy Spirit is a pastor or priest who has no business being a pastor or priest.

The bible isn't what allows people to have a divine connection to Jesus or God anyways. It's a person's commitment to an ideal that Christ would approve of.

Actually, that's not what the Bible says. The Bible tells us that we're unified with God because we have His Holy Spirit living in us.

The bible can inspire people because of the story of Jesus, but you only need to hear the story to be inspired. You don't need the bible.

Christians do need the Bible. God believes we need it or else He wouldn't have given it to us.

My point is that Christianity seems to care less and less about the person than they do about spreading the word of God and making the Church stronger.

How can you say that we have a divine connection with God by following ideals Jesus believes in, but then say that we should ignore the Great Commision, which is a command from Jesus?

WHO CARES about the bible

I do. It is very precious to me because it is God's word and outlines His plan of salvation for sinners like me.

and who gives a crap about the church?

Jesus does. He founded the church, died for the church, and is coming again for the church.

Really, I think there are a lot of people who are extremely bored with the church and I see a lot of people that turn away from it because of how it tries to conform people under a set of rules.

But if they're not there to gather for the corporate preaching and teaching of God's word, corporate worship, edification of the Body, and accountability, why are they there in the first place?

 

[firesky112]

I want to thank all of you who replied to what I said. I appreciate your input in this thread.

However, every single one of you fail to see what I am saying.

I think Jesus cares about us becoming brighter, more caring, powerful people. I think he wants us ALL to have a true, divine connection with God. He wants all of these things for us. So, what I am saying is I think the church is actually spoiling this idea because we are all conforming to this widespread institution we have formed. It's about the person, not about the church. Don't tell me that a person has to be completely selfless; what Jesus was talking about was making people work together to create a better world, and you can't do that unless you put energy into discovering what YOUR ideal is and how it is you're going to connect to God. AS SOON AS YOU START CONFORMING TO THE CHURCH, all of that burns away. You no longer care about how you're going to reach God, you care about the church. You start caring about "salvation" and you conform in order to save yourself.

The problem is that people think they need to save themselves by going to church. In actuality, the only thing you need to save yourself is God and Jesus, and your willingness to be at one with them. People can help each other do this in fellowship, BUT A CHURCH THAT TELLS A PERSON HOW TO DO IT is not needed. People may need help in finding out what their ideal is, but once they know what to work towards THEY DO NOT NEED TO READ THE BIBLE OR GO TO CHURCH. It should be their life's work, something they do everyday. The church should be eliminated. Period. IF YOU STILL NEED THE BIBLE, and you still need church then I believe that you do not have the connection to God that Jesus intended.
I know you people may like the church, but I can tell it's holding a lot of people behind. Are you guys saying that you don't believe it's possible to have a divine connection with God without the church or bible?

In the end, what I am telling you is that THE ONLY WAY I see people uniting under one "religion" is if the religion makes everyone more powerful, everyone more happy and connected with God. If someone could find their ideal and try to describe it in one to three words, and then they figured out how to reach this ideal and connect with God, then the results would be fantastic. People would know Jesus, would know God, and at the same time they would be reaching for what they truely desire. They would be happy, and not only that, more powerful and able to realize their dreams. It would apply to the person on a very, very deep and individual level. Everyone would fight for God and want to serve Jesus. Fellowship with this idea would make it reach more and more people. In my opinion, WE HAVE NOTHING LIKE THIS NOW. Don't settle for anything less than the best; I know a lot of people in the church who still want more. So don't tell me that the church works, because it obviously has repelled many, many, many people. We don't need it.

 

[WarEagle]

I think Jesus cares about us becoming brighter, more caring, powerful people.

And how do you come to that conclusion?

So, what I am saying is I think the church is actually spoiling this idea because we are all conforming to this widespread institution we have formed.

Actually, Jesus formed the church.

what Jesus was talking about was making people work together to create a better world

Really? When did Jesus talk about that?

and you can't do that unless you put energy into discovering what YOUR ideal is and how it is you're going to connect to God.

Man's "ideal" is to feed his sinful nature. It's precisely man's "ideal" that seperates us from God and makes us enemies of His in the first place.

We need to stop worrying about man's ideal and start honoring God's ideal, which is holiness.

AS SOON AS YOU START CONFORMING TO THE CHURCH, all of that burns away. You no longer care about how you're going to reach God, you care about the church. You start caring about "salvation" and you conform in order to save yourself.

If salvation is a bad thing, then why did Jesus die to save us?

The problem is that people think they need to save themselves by going to church.

But why would you blame the church for the individual's misunderstanding?

In actuality, the only thing you need to save yourself is God and Jesus, and your willingness to be at one with them.

Please read Romans 5-7. It will clear up your misunderstanding by explaining that (a) we cannot save ourselves and (b) salvation comes through repentance and faith in Christ and His atonement on the cross our your behalf, not "willingness to be at one with them".

People can help each other do this in fellowship, BUT A CHURCH THAT TELLS A PERSON HOW TO DO IT is not needed.

Then why did Jesus build the church and command the church to do this?

People may need help in finding out what their ideal is, but once they know what to work towards THEY DO NOT NEED TO READ THE BIBLE OR GO TO CHURCH.

Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

The church should be eliminated.

Good luck with that. Jesus has declared that even the gates of Hell won't prevail against the church. If the Devil can't do it, what makes you think you can?

IF YOU STILL NEED THE BIBLE, and you still need church then I believe that you do not have the connection to God that Jesus intended.

What kind of "connection" do you hope to have with God if you won't read His word?

In the end, what I am telling you is that THE ONLY WAY I see people uniting under one "religion" is if the religion makes everyone more powerful, everyone more happy and connected with God.

Then I've got good news for you! You're going to get your wish! Jesus taught that a man is going to come along who will unite everyone under one religion and everyone will be happy (for a time) and those who belong to this religion will, indeed, be more powerful (for a time).

And then, there's the bad news...

If someone could find their ideal and try to describe it in one to three words

My ideal in three words: sin, self, rebellion

God's ideal in three words: repentance, cross, holiness

People would know Jesus, would know God, and at the same time they would be reaching for what they truely desire.

The Bible says that faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Everyone would fight for God and want to serve Jesus.

How can they want to serve Jesus when everything you've suggested is in direct contradiction to what Jesus taught?

In my opinion, WE HAVE NOTHING LIKE THIS NOW.

Sure we do. People serve themselves and their flesh every day.

So don't tell me that the church works, because it obviously has repelled many, many, many people. We don't need it.

Have you ever stopped to consider that the problem may not be with the church, but with the people who are "repelled"?

 

[firesky112]

Wait, let me get this straight.

So you think EVERYONE'S ideal is sin, self, rebellion. So human beings WITHOUT the bible or church will become evil monsters if they follow their true ideals?

Ok, I see what you're saying. However, let's take me for example. I don't have the bible. I don't have the church. Truthfully and securely I can say that my ideal can be put into two words: "Powerful Beauty". I know this for sure. What this ideal means is that I want to strive to become a powerful person who can overcome challenges, and that I want all things beautiful in my life. By knowing that this is my true desire and what I will strive for at all costs, I therefore connect to who I REALLY am. Who I really am is a soul that is an expression of God. Once my soul shines through from then on, I will then be more in touch with God. In other words, I will care more about the world I live in and the people around me because I FULLY REALIZE that we are all part OF ONE SPIRiTUAL BODY.

So what I did just now was prove that you are indeed wrong. I am a human being, and my ideal is NOT sin, self, and rebellion. Even if you think the ideal I just described represents sin, self, and rebellion, then HOW IN THE WORLD can you explain the fact that I have been to various church groups and gatherings and people have regarded me as an extremely caring and compassionate person worthy of being a church member?

You see, the problem is that you don't want to focus ON HELPING THE PERSON. As you said, "Have you ever thought the problem might be with those who are repelled?".
You are so focused on helping the church and adhering to the bible that if someone goes against your "rules" and refuses to accept them then something is wrong with them. With your attitude, you could never, ever unite the world under one religion and you can never ever accomplish what Jesus wanted you to. SO WHY ARE YOU SETTLING FOR THAT? I appreciate your input, but I must honestly say that it is pathetic that you do not TRY to see new possibilities even if almost 10/10 people I ask disagree with the church.

 

[tapero]

I want to thank all of you who replied to what I said. I appreciate your input in this thread.

However, every single one of you fail to see what I am saying.

I think Jesus cares about us becoming brighter, more caring, powerful people. I think he wants us ALL to have a true, divine connection with God. He wants all of these things for us. So, what I am saying is I think the church is actually spoiling this idea because we are all conforming to this widespread institution we have formed. It's about the person, not about the church. Don't tell me that a person has to be completely selfless; what Jesus was talking about was making people work together to create a better world, and you can't do that unless you put energy into discovering what YOUR ideal is and how it is you're going to connect to God. AS SOON AS YOU START CONFORMING TO THE CHURCH, all of that burns away. You no longer care about how you're going to reach God, you care about the church. You start caring about "salvation" and you conform in order to save yourself.

The problem is that people think they need to save themselves by going to church. In actuality, the only thing you need to save yourself is God and Jesus, and your willingness to be at one with them. People can help each other do this in fellowship, BUT A CHURCH THAT TELLS A PERSON HOW TO DO IT is not needed. People may need help in finding out what their ideal is, but once they know what to work towards THEY DO NOT NEED TO READ THE BIBLE OR GO TO CHURCH. It should be their life's work, something they do everyday. The church should be eliminated. Period. IF YOU STILL NEED THE BIBLE, and you still need church then I believe that you do not have the connection to God that Jesus intended.
I know you people may like the church, but I can tell it's holding a lot of people behind. Are you guys saying that you don't believe it's possible to have a divine connection with God without the church or bible?

In the end, what I am telling you is that THE ONLY WAY I see people uniting under one "religion" is if the religion makes everyone more powerful, everyone more happy and connected with God. If someone could find their ideal and try to describe it in one to three words, and then they figured out how to reach this ideal and connect with God, then the results would be fantastic. People would know Jesus, would know God, and at the same time they would be reaching for what they truely desire. They would be happy, and not only that, more powerful and able to realize their dreams. It would apply to the person on a very, very deep and individual level. Everyone would fight for God and want to serve Jesus. Fellowship with this idea would make it reach more and more people. In my opinion, WE HAVE NOTHING LIKE THIS NOW. Don't settle for anything less than the best; I know a lot of people in the church who still want more. So don't tell me that the church works, because it obviously has repelled many, many, many people. We don't need it.

I don't know that all Christians think they save themselves by going to church; rather I fairly much doubt many do, as only Christ saves a person, not what they do or don't do.

If someone is at a good church, Christ centered, it's excellent to go to church; one gets to be with others who are like minded, also if a good pastor, hears sermons that are amazing, and singing with others, and other things that encouarge the flock.

I thought I mentioned but if a church is a place where rules are dictated, it's not a good church.

If you don't read the bible, you won't tend to know who God is, but is left up to your imagination; and as much as you can glean from the creation which He says due to the creation He is clearly seen, and so man is without excuse.

Also, without the bible, when you hear garbage you wouldn't know something isn't in the bible, unless you know it; and this occurs to many who follow others but do not know the word for themselves.

The bible contains the truth, so without that, much is being missed, so it is very important to all Christians.

I have a brother who told me he believes in Christ, but doesn't read the bible, as he is really not geared to reading; he doesn't go to church, and he doesn't ask me things, and so knows very little but only that he believes in Christ who died for our sins, and I doubt he understands much of that as well.

God wants all to come to know Him of course, but not to be brighter or more powerful as you wrote above. If anything, if someone is powerful they would seek humility in the position they have, and in re to brighter, not sure what you mean, as without Gods word, one doesn't have the truth and you are saying one doesn't need the bible.

What Christ desires, is that we have a relationship with him, and grow in him, he also wants us (Christians) to turn from sin, we all sin, and always will, but we do turn from sin, and fail. He also wants us to be renewed in our minds, which comes from reading the truth, the bible, and our minds are renewed. It is not for this world that the kingdom is gaining sheep, as God clearly says we are not of this world.

As we grow in Christ, we become more loving, forgiving, etc. but we all fail as well.

I've never read anywhere that Jesus said we are to create a better world, but Christians do have such an effect as well as can a non Chistian help create a better world; but just to let you know, not stated by Christ, and not the goal. The world is passing and we are here for a short time only.

The goal of Christ is for us to change in our inner man, a heart change, by renewing of our mind (thru reading the bible, sermons, etc.) and turning from sin. Again, there is much sin in us, and will always come up and either be turned away from or we harden our hearts.

There is inner sin and outward sin. Inner is pride, self righteousness etc, many in number in all men, those are just two. These sins may or may not be detected by another, depends on how good the person hides their sin, or if they are working on that sin. Pride one day may be turned from, but come up again a week later, and will always come up all our lives, such as all inner sins will.

Outward sinning is obvious, where all see, if not hidden from all that is.

Best of course is to tell a friend of ones struggles with sin and gain some help or a pastor perhaps, but only someone who can be trusted. I tell a friend when I am struggling with certain things, or have just committed a sin.

There will never be one religion in this world, and pray it never even attempts such, tho such will be attempted in the tribulation period.

If you don't like church or the bible, that's fine. I don't care for church much, but that's only because there is not a good church in my area. A good church is excellent.

If you don't like the bible, big problems, again, you will never know who Jesus is, but by rumor, and what He may impart to you, but we do have the bible available which is very revealing of who God is, tho only in part.

Also, you will not be renewed in your mind, if you don't read the bible, so no inward change, a temporary change may occur but not a lasting one.

You will hear things spoken about the bible, and not know if such is true or not.

You can not tell others about Jesus since you know little of him, so can't share about him, since you don't know him if you don't read the bible.

When one is a Chistian they may not be happy, and many times are not happy; because of what occurs in life; what Christians have is joy, inner joy and inner peace, and not always as it depends on our walk with God. Happiness is not a result of becoming a Christian, tho we are very happy to be Christians, but as you see in the bible, God says we will face much, and if you ever read what Job went thru, i don't think he was happy when he went thru the fire.

Back to my brother, his growth is stunted; never moving forward as he doesn't read or hear the truth, so can not be renewed in his mind until he reads or does hear the truths contained in the bible.

He's a wonderful brother, and I'm sure there are many who don't read the bible, and again, my brother will say things he thinks are truths which are not truths, and it's because he doesn't know the bible.

There are those in persecuted countries, many which only know bits and pieces of the truth, passed along, to each other, and it is awesome. The bible is illegal, and yet the church is growing cause of underground churches. Again, the church is the body, not the building.

One never need go to church at all, but there are wonderful churches out there.

I forgot one thing, probably many; but in times of trouble which are every day, if one has no promises of God in their heart to cling to, they have no hope and do not know how to make it through. Reading the bible reveals the promises to us, and without them as a help, we would be no differnt than before we were Christians, looking to the world (who does not give us hope) nor ever will, for the answers and help, rather than the truth, which is contained in the bible.

Sorry went on so long, don't know if I touched on all your points.

Without an anchor, Christ and the bible, one is tossed to an fro basically.

 

[WarEagle]

Wait, let me get this straight.

So you think EVERYONE'S ideal is sin, self, rebellion. So human beings WITHOUT the bible or church will become evil monsters if they follow their true ideals?

No. People are already evil. It is only by being born again that they become new creations in Christ.

Ok, I see what you're saying. However, let's take me for example. I don't have the bible. I don't have the church. Truthfully and securely I can say that my ideal can be put into two words: "Powerful Beauty". I know this for sure.

The problem is that, reading your posts from a Biblical point of view, we see that your beliefs are directly at odds with Christ.

You say that people are good. Christ said that no one is good.

You say that Christ wants to unite everyone. Christ said that He came to divide.

You say that we don't need the Bible. Christ called it spiritual food, without which, no man can live.

You say that we don't need the church, but Christ is the one who established the church, died for the church, and is returning to claim the church as His bride.

You say that we should follow Christ's teachings, but when we examine what you say are Christ's teachings vs. Christ's actually teachings as found in God's word, we see that the Christ's you're speaking of is one of your own making, invented by you to tell you what your flesh and sinful, self serving nature want to hear.

What this ideal means is that I want to strive to become a powerful person who can overcome challenges, and that I want all things beautiful in my life.

But what good is striving if you're not striving for Christ?

That is why we sing in the words of the great hymn, "A Mighty Fortress is Our God":

Did we in our own strength confide, our striving would be losing.

That's exactly what you're doing. You're placing your confidence in your own strength and making your striving losing.

Everything you've said up to this point has been "ME!, ME!, ME!", when it should be "JESUS! JESUS! JESUS!"

You're relying on your own strength and your own imagined goodness, when the Bible tells us that Christ is made strong in us, only in our weakness and humility before Him.

Who I really am is a soul that is an expression of God.

All of us are meant to be expressions of God. We see in Paul's letter to the Romans that we were created in order to demonstrate God's communicable attributes to the world. This is why we feel compassion for others, because God is compassionate. It's why we feel angry when we see injustice, because God is just and is angry at injustice.

But what happens is that when we sin, we tell the world that God is a sinner and that is why He hates sin so, because it defames and slanders His name.

While you were created to be an expression of God, your sin makes you an enemy of God because, by your sin, you've defamed and slandered His name.

Once my soul shines through from then on, I will then be more in touch with God.

Do you believe that your actions are an indication of your soul?

In other words, I will care more about the world I live in and the people around me because I FULLY REALIZE that we are all part OF ONE SPIRiTUAL BODY.

Again, you say that you believe we should follow the teachings of Jesus, but then you say something that is completely contradictory. Jesus taught that we're not a part of one spiritual body, but that some are children of God, while others are children of wrath.

So what I did just now was prove that you are indeed wrong.

If you say so.

I am a human being, and my ideal is NOT sin, self, and rebellion.

So far, we've seen that your "ideal" includes idolitry and blasphemy.

Even if you think the ideal I just described represents sin, self, and rebellion, then HOW IN THE WORLD can you explain the fact that I have been to various church groups and gatherings and people have regarded me as an extremely caring and compassionate person worthy of being a church member?

I don't. I'm sure they were very impressed with you (maybe almost as impressed with you as you seem to be impressed with yourself), but the big question isn't how you're seen in the eyes of other sinners, but how you're seen in the eyes of God.

You see, the problem is that you don't want to focus ON HELPING THE PERSON. As you said, "Have you ever thought the problem might be with those who are repelled?".

That doesn't mean that we don't want to help them. It's just that we recognize that the real "help" they need is available only at the cross of Christ. If they're not willing to humble themselves and come to the cross, then what else can we do for them?

You are so focused on helping the church and adhering to the bible that if someone goes against your "rules" and refuses to accept them then something is wrong with them.

You're right. If someone refuses to accept the authority of God's word, then the problem is with them, not with God's word.

With your attitude, you could never, ever unite the world under one religion and you can never ever accomplish what Jesus wanted you to.

When did Jesus ever say that He wanted us to united everyone under one religion?

If that's what Jesus wanted, then why does the Bible tell us that the one who's going to do that is the anti-Christ?

I must honestly say that it is pathetic that you do not TRY to see new possibilities even if almost 10/10 people I ask disagree with the church.

That's fine if you want to call me pathetic. It's much better to be a fool in your eyes than a fool in God's eyes.

Just remember, 1 Corinthians tells us that "the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

 

[Whitestone]

firesky112 you also have the option to try to disprove the bible. Some of my most humbling confrontations were with non Christians who knew the bible better than I did.

 

[firesky112]

Alright dude, you have brought up a good point. However, now you will really see how your religion fails.

You say that I go against everything that Jesus has said in the Bible, that I am at odds with all of his teachings. You also say that all I have spoken of is me, me, me. I do not deny any of these things. I probably do appear to go against his teachings at first glance. Here is the huge problem though.

You are following a book. You are following something written down by someone else besides Jesus a long time ago. This book could have everything holy in it, which I don't believe it entirely does. If you follow this book for the rest of your life, it is then possible to adhere to everything the bible says and achieve salvation.

The HUGE problem with this what you did to everyone else in the world who does not follow your religion. You know VERY WELL that Jesus preached to everyone and strove to communicate what he knew about God to all different types of people. By adhering to the bible you follow a book, and by what you're saying you start to stray away from your sinful nature. Those that do not do this can only supposedly be saved by Christ. The way I see it, my idea is much, much more selfless than yours. Do you know why? It's because I am willing to include every single person on the planet. You, on the other hand seem to cower from humanity and their sinful nature like the beings that God created are inherently tainted and corrupt. The more you cower and shun humanity like this, the more you will never, EVER see how awesome God's creation is. You will constantly give up your power to join the church and to be saved.

I see no more progress being made with your religion. It seems that your religion will forever have this constant war against "sinful people" and that you and other Christians will be walled up in your fortress, letting only a select few through the gates. You see potential in the bible, but you fail to see potential in humanity without the bible.

After all the great points you have brought up and the information you have given me, my biggest problem is still the question of what you are going to do with these non-believing, sinful people that don't follow the bible. To me it sounds like YOU DON'T WANT HEAVEN ON EARTH BECAUSE YOU DON'T THINK IT'S POSSIBLE FOR US TO CREATE THAT. You don't seem to think that as human beings we capable of creating anything good by ourselves. Just like in that movie The Matrix, you are so tied into this system of yours that you will never ever use what God gave you before you ever read a bible to see new possibilities. Without this system, it seems like you are utterly helpless. It's like you will die because you will be overtaken by your sinful nature. You make it sound like everyone who doesn't believe is a monster and that you are merely a monster who gave up his power to follow and be saved by something else. So then we live in a sad world full of monsters that MUST HAVE a system to be tied into so that these monsters can be saved. How SAD that is. You have no hope for humanity. You have no power as a human being. I don't ever see you considering the possibility that God gave us the ability to create heaven on earth by ourselves because we are actually GOOD in the first place. Even without the bible we can still work with God and Jesus through a divine connection. However, it seems you will always just be an outdated form of a human being. You will never grow, you will only follow and supposedly be saved. Do you now see why your religion fails to reach so_many_people?

This does not mean that you are hopeless, though. I just doubt I will ever see the fully realized potential of who you could really be because you are holding yourself back.

Despite this heated arguement that we have been in, I really hope that you realize that we are VERY, very similar. I want to follow God and Jesus, and so do you. That is one huge, glaring similarity and it is why I talk to great people like you. The ONLY difference is that I do it without the bible and you do not. Dude, I really want freedom, and so do a lot of people. I have it, and you seriously have no idea what I am capable of now. I feel more connected to everything around me, I feel more alive, and I feel like I have this endless passion to fight for Christ. I have the whole package, I received it only when I believed in myself and understood who I really was; a good soul of God's creation. I don't live in fear, I live in freedom and love for God and everyone else. I am going to show everyone how to do this, because there are too many people in the church and outside of church that live in fear. I want them to have the freedom and connection with God that I have.

 

[firesky112]

Tapero, thanks for replying.

Actually, I want to tell you something that you may not believe. I could totally understand why you may not believe this, but nevertheless from countless experiences I know this is true.

I have a connection with the spirit world, heaven, whatever you want to call it. This allows me to hear good spirits, angels, etc. One thing I know you will be suspicious of is that I can talk to Jesus. This ability is called psychic ability. I carry it with me everyday, every second of my life. Therefore I always have a way to talk to God and Jesus just by being a human being.

Guys, please don't all shoot me down at once. I know this may seem totally unbelievable. However, I know that this is real and that I should not be considered special. Everyone can and will do this in the future. The reason I bring this up is because Tapero said that no one can ever know Jesus without studying the bible. I DO know him, and that's why I want to follow him.

 

[Jesuswasnotawhiteman]

I'm not fond of "The Church" these corrupted fellows. however a church consists of people and someones got to head it. The pastor being divine is utter foolishness. Thats like the pope being holy.

 

[Jesuswasnotawhiteman]

To firesky, I can talk with God too, its called praying *wink.

maybe you should seek help. no offense but claiming to have connection to a spirit forum in a supernatural way is not normal.

 

[tapero]

Tapero, thanks for replying.

Actually, I want to tell you something that you may not believe. I could totally understand why you may not believe this, but nevertheless from countless experiences I know this is true.

I have a connection with the spirit world, heaven, whatever you want to call it. This allows me to hear good spirits, angels, etc. One thing I know you will be suspicious of is that I can talk to Jesus. This ability is called psychic ability. I carry it with me everyday, every second of my life. Therefore I always have a way to talk to God and Jesus just by being a human being.

Guys, please don't all shoot me down at once. I know this may seem totally unbelievable. However, I know that this is real and that I should not be considered special. Everyone can and will do this in the future. The reason I bring this up is because Tapero said that no one can ever know Jesus without studying the bible. I DO know him, and that's why I want to follow him.

Woah, I never said no one can ever know Jesus without studying the bible. When we come to Christ, we for the most part have not read the bible at all. One comes to Christ by faith in Christ alone. What I did say, is without the bible you don't know much if anything about Jesus, except what you hear (which should be checked against the bible to see if true). etc. Without this, anyone can be decieved and many are.

God says many will be decieved, so that's why the bible is needed to know the truth, to stay away from false teachers, and recognize lies and deceit, and such.

God says that our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual wickedness in high places. So, basically demons. I don't speak much at all about demons, as only focus on Christ, but just telling you what that scripture is referring to.

I don't doubt anyone would have such an ability as you say you have. In the bible, new testament is a girl who is able to foretell the future and made a lot of money for her owners. She started following some of the disciples and apostles around saying: These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved."

Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.

As you see, this spirit that was in her was a demon as Paul cast it out of her through Christ.

Also, in the OT God speaks of certain things, in several places here's one:

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

There are two reasons I can think of why such is so detestable to God. One is that God is the only one we should ever seek for anything as regarding spiritual matters and second reason, not seek out demons (we also can ask others for help.)

People who are into this stuff are involved in the spiritual world of demons. Demons are not our friends, they are our enemies; and satan is a demon and of him it's is said, he's a liar and murderer and more. You see those that trust in demons voices are being decieved, and some believe that they have a connection with God because of such ability.

Demons can say what appears to be okay, when in fact it is not. Adam and Eve were decieved by satan, a demon as he spoke a lie to Adam and Eve, but made it appear to Eve as desirous for her to want to do as he said.

you wrote:

I have a connection with the spirit world, heaven, whatever you want to call it. This allows me to hear good spirits, angels, etc. One thing I know you will be suspicious of is that I can talk to Jesus. This ability is called psychic ability. I carry it with me everyday, every second of my life. Therefore I always have a way to talk to God and Jesus just by being a human being.

I've never heard of such capability before as regards Christians, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. Your last statement, "always have a way to talk to God just by being a human being", is no different than we all have by prayer. Christians all talk to Jesus, but He does not audibly speak back, tho there may be occasions, but is rare.

I doubt highly that the 'good spirits' you refer to are good spirits, and on the angels you may be speaking with demons. As to good spirits you must be referring to people, as it's either demons or people. A demon is a fallen angel. Again, I don't doubt for a second that you have a capability as the bible is clear there are abilities, but as I posted above, God says not to practice them, they are detestable. They are demons or powers given by demons etc. Demons, satan being one, as well masquerade as light, when in fact they are darkness and out to decieve.

One of their purposes is to keep people from Christ, which believing in Christ, means salvation and a relationship with God.

You also need to make this distinction:

Have you ever told Jesus you believe in him and accepted the gift of salvation and forgiveness of sins and asked him in your life? How one words that they believe in Christ is not important.

I am just giving a reference of how one may come to Christ. One can say I believe, can be many different things said.

If you did such did your realize you were saved, or a term I use born again? In most instances people do know when they are born again, or a new creation in Christ. Young people, are less aware of such and may have no awareness, but when we come to Christ at an older age, we are aware, as our whole life changes.

The Holy Spirit now helps us and we find ourselves relearning all we knew from before (which was worldly wisdom) and not godly wisdom.

Some people change is slower, some faster; but we hunger for God's word, and much more comes after one comes to Christ.

I'm not saying cause you don't read the bible you are not a Christian as there are those not given to reading, such as my brother, in his case I don't know if he has come to Christ, but also, some people just will not read, for various reasons, some can be an inability to read, or some just depend on others to tell them about God, and what's in the bible, or like you for some reason don't think it should be read.

If you did come to Christ, the Holy Spirit indwelled you.

I've read of Christians practicing psychic abilities after coming to Christ and once they realize this is wrong to do and what they are doing is not of God, they stop.

So, it does appear a believer can have abilities, but should (at all costs) stop the practice as is again detestable to God, and is not of God but of demons.

Of course if one doesn't read the bible they don't know, and even if one reads the bible, until they read scripture concerning such they don't know.

Okay, i love your last statement, I know Jesus and want to follow Him. The only way is by knowing what He desires and the only place to find out is through the bible. If you were in a country that such was not legal or available, God would meet those needs, but you do have the bible available to you, and since you wish to follow Christ, one needs be in the bible to see what Christ desires.

Many are turned off with good reason due to some churches, christians, etc., but if in the bible, one knows not to be in a church (go to another, or don't go), or believe what someone says because they are a christian, but know for themselves because it's in the bible.

There are no rules in scripture, but commandments; to love, forgive and many such things and much instruction in godliness and much to learn about God in old and new testament.

So, as you say with churches who do rules, best to find another.

I find it best to not know doctrines or theologies, etc, and do not go to churches that espouse any, except that we are saved by faith in Christ alone and a few other basic understandings.

So, using the bible to learn, and not learning what other men are teaching, but learning for myself.

Thanks for reading.

take care,
tapero

 

[WarEagle]

You say that I go against everything that Jesus has said in the Bible, that I am at odds with all of his teachings. You also say that all I have spoken of is me, me, me. I do not deny any of these things.

'Nuff said.

You are following a book.

No, I'm following the word of God as compiled in a book.

You are following something written down by someone else besides Jesus a long time ago.

Yes, it was written by someone other than Jesus. However, the others were inspired by the Holy Spirit, who was sent by Jesus.

If you follow this book for the rest of your life, it is then possible to adhere to everything the bible says and achieve salvation.

I've tried to explain to you several times now how one is saved. Following the Bible is not what saves us. It is repentance and faith in Christ and His atonement on the cross.

Following the Bible is a good indication of whether or not somebody is saved, but it is not the means of salvation.

You know VERY WELL that Jesus preached to everyone and strove to communicate what he knew about God to all different types of people.

Sure, I know that. I also know that He said that very few of them would follow Him.

By adhering to the bible you follow a book, and by what you're saying you start to stray away from your sinful nature. Those that do not do this can only supposedly be saved by Christ.

No, Christ is the only way for anyone to be saved. There is no "you're saved this way", "that person is saved that way".

You either trust in Christ and His vicarious death on your behalf for your salvation, or you're putting your trust in false god.

The way I see it, my idea is much, much more selfless than yours. Do you know why? It's because I am willing to include every single person on the planet. You, on the other hand seem to cower from humanity and their sinful nature like the beings that God created are inherently tainted and corrupt.

If God says that they're "inherently tainted and corrupt", who am I to disagree?

[quiote]The more you cower and shun humanity like this, the more you will never, EVER see how awesome God's creation is.[/quote]

First of all, I don't "shun humanity". I'm not some hermit living in the woods.

I engage humanity every day.

Second, while God's creation is, indeed, awesome, that's a testimony to the awesomeness of the Creator, not the creation.

You will constantly give up your power to join the church and to be saved.

Actually, I'm already saved and am already a part of the church.

I see no more progress being made with your religion.

I guess it all depends how you're defining "progress". We define progress as growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ, growing in holiness, and seeing people saved, delivered from sin, and born again into the Kingdom of God.

It seems that your religion will forever have this constant war against "sinful people" and that you and other Christians will be walled up in your fortress, letting only a select few through the gates.

Again, I have no idea what you're talking about. We aren't at war with anyone.

You know, if we're at war with sinners, then starting two Gospel missions to feed them when they're hungry, house them when they're homeless, provide healthcare for them when they're sick, teach them job skills so that they can climb out of poverty, etc, seems like an awfully strange way to wage war, doesn't it?

Second, do we let only a select few through the gates? I suppose so.

But wasn't it Jesus Christ, who you say you admire, who said that only a very small number of people would enter into the narrow gate?

You see potential in the bible, but you fail to see potential in humanity without the bible.

No, I don't see potential in the Bible. You see, to see potential in something means to believe that it is not yet perfect, but must still strive for perfection.

God's word is inspired, inerrant, and holy.

As for the potential for humanity, mankind does have a lot of potential, but they are still going to Hell without Jesus Christ.

After all the great points you have brought up and the information you have given me, my biggest problem is still the question of what you are going to do with these non-believing, sinful people that don't follow the bible.

What do you mean "what I'm going to do with them"?

God has only called us to preach the Gospel to the lost and edify the body of Christ. Beyond that, it's up to Him.

To me it sounds like YOU DON'T WANT HEAVEN ON EARTH BECAUSE YOU DON'T THINK IT'S POSSIBLE FOR US TO CREATE THAT.

No, you're right. I don't want Heaven on Earth. I want Heaven the way God means for it to be.

Without this system, it seems like you are utterly helpless.

Without Christ, I am helpless. Without Christ, I am hopeless.

You see Christ as a crutch. I see Christ as a stretcher. Spiritually, I don't even have the strength to hold myself up on a crutch. Jesus has got to carry me.

It's like you will die because you will be overtaken by your sinful nature.

Actually, the Bible says that when a born again child of God dies, His sinful nature is left behind forever and He becomes like Christ.

You have no hope for humanity.

Sure I do. The difference is that you believe that humanity is it's own hope. I believe that the hope of humanity is found in the person and atoning work and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I don't ever see you considering the possibility that God gave us the ability to create heaven on earth by ourselves because we are actually GOOD in the first place.

Since that it is direct contradiction to what Jesus taught, you're right: I don't even consider it as a possibility.

Even without the bible we can still work with God and Jesus through a divine connection.

Not unless you're born again.

However, it seems you will always just be an outdated form of a human being. You will never grow, you will only follow and supposedly be saved.

That's a burden I suppose I'll just have to learn to bear.

I want to follow God and Jesus, and so do you.

If you wanted to follow God and Jesus, then you'd believe His word.

The ONLY difference is that I do it without the bible and you do not.

First, thank you for the complement.

Second, you're right, there is a difference and it shows glaringly.

Dude, I really want freedom, and so do a lot of people. I have it

Do you? Do you really?

OK. Show me how much freedom you have. Take one week and choose not to sin.

and you seriously have no idea what I am capable of now. I feel more connected to everything around me, I feel more alive, and I feel like I have this endless passion to fight for Christ. I have the whole package, I received it only when I believed in myself and understood who I really was; a good soul of God's creation. I don't live in fear, I live in freedom and love for God and everyone else. I am going to show everyone how to do this, because there are too many people in the church and outside of church that live in fear. I want them to have the freedom and connection with God that I have.

And you're so humble about it, too.

 

[firesky112]

Wareagle, I see that you are very set in your beliefs. You have totally proved to me that you are indeed a robot.

"I don't want heaven on earth. I want heaven the way intends for it to be"

I've got news for you, bub. You aren't going anywhere. Get comfortable with the "progress" you say you are making because it will become an endless cycle of inner conflict and jadedness. Try to at least pretend like you're having fun, ok?

 

[WarEagle]

I've got news for you, bub. You aren't going anywhere. Get comfortable with the "progress" you say you are making because it will become an endless cycle of inner conflict and jadedness. Try to at least pretend like you're having fun, ok?

OK.

 

[Whitestone]

Firesky you are coming from a dangerous place for us Christians. You are claiming that you understand the Lord wants but contradict His teachings.

Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

If you can hear spirits talking to you and they say they are G-d or Our Savior and disagree with the bible they are neither. Please ignore them, claiming that they are truly from the Lord is insulting to Him.

Whitestone