Why is satan the bad guy?

Strathos · Sep 3, 2014

What about the fact that God wants us all to be saved while Satan wants us all to perish?

TheStraightener · Sep 3, 2014

But in the bible, the only thing God is saving us from is his own rules and punishments.

It's God who enforces the Believe or Burn policy.

Not Satan

Blessedj01 · Sep 3, 2014

DogmaHunter said:
That would be a compelling argument if you could support it. Can you? You asserted that Satan wants humans dead. How do you know this? what is it based on?

Yes, I can support it. From the Bible.

Probably not what you want to hear, but look at our surroundings.

Also interesting avatar. Is that a hydra?

Also guys, are we suffering from ungrateful child syndrome here? We threw all the toys out of the cot, chose to experience the knowledge of good and evil by embracing death and then hid from God and went our own way. That's why we die, not because it's His fault and not because it's Satan's fault either (though he is at fault). We physically and spiritually separated from our creator. It was our choice, we shouldn't blame a God who gave His own life to fix it.

GrowingSmaller · Sep 3, 2014

DogmaHunter said:
So, it's just arbitrary?

So if I define Osama Bin Laden to be "good", then "by definition" he is good?

See, this is exactly the problem. These theistic characters are simply defined to be a certain way and then it is assumed that the definitions are correct.

I don't find this to be compelling at all. The defenition needs to be based on something. If it isn't, it is totally arbitrary.

Basically, if the answer to the question "why is satan bad?" simply is "because he is defined to be bad", then the whole notion is rendered meaningless. It's not different then "because I say so". That's not a valid reason.

Try a real argument.

I think you are getting it wrong, although you have good skeptical acumen.

Religion can be regarded as symbolic didactics. "Satan"is form of narrative shorthand. He may exist, or may not. But the functionality of the concept is what matters, and has mattered historically and sociologically. It plays to a degree a role in moral education, "skillful living"or wisdom, and has been fairly successful over the millenia.

You may say we have science now, but until people find it a suitable replacement, in their terms and their lives, not yours, well, its a case of "my breads better even though no ones buying it".

Of course symbolism may go wrong, if we reduce religion to that, and end up defeating its object .... dysfunction is possible too. But were fallible humans,and will never get it 100% right IMO.

"Satan exists"is unfalsifiable, but especially in cultures without advanced secular education as an alternative, it may be pretty useful in terms of causing secular goods like health, social cohesion etc. The fact that the concept seems to have "evolved independently" in various faiths indicates to me that it does -in context - have pragmatic value as a psycho-social tool.

In fact I seem to see that often secularists are more wasteful of their lives in practice (drink, drugs etc and related illness being more prevalent in a modern secular country?) even if they win the debates on paper.

DogmaHunter · Sep 3, 2014

Strathos said:
What about the fact that God wants us all to be saved while Satan wants us all to perish?

What about the fact that god happily condemns people (the majority of people, according to the theology) to eternal torture for using their reasonable brains?

Does he really want us to be saved? Because I'm not seeing it. Listening to some theists here, he actually went out of his way to make sure we couldn't rationally meet his requirements in order to be "saved".

And "saved" from what, exactly? Ironically: HIMSELF

DogmaHunter · Sep 3, 2014

Blessedj01 said:
Yes, I can support it. From the Bible.

Probably not what you want to hear, but look at our surroundings.

A priori, I don't really care where you get your information from. Arguments fall and stand on their own merrits.
So if you can give me a reasonable and valid argument (from whatever source), I'm all ears.

Also interesting avatar. Is that a hydra?

It's the undetectable 7-headed dragon that created the universe and everything it contains yesterday. It's a religion I invented that I like to call Draconian Yesterdayism.

Also guys, are we suffering from ungrateful child syndrome here?

No. We're just trying to objectively evaluate the biblical story while bending over backwards to operate from the idea that the story is actually real.

We threw all the toys out of the cot, chose to experience the knowledge of good and evil by embracing death and then hid from God and went our own way. That's why we die, not because it's His fault and not because it's Satan's fault either (though he is at fault). We physically and spiritually separated from our creator. It was our choice, we shouldn't blame a God who gave His own life to fix it.

I invite you to take a step backwards and consider this exact paragraphe with a few changes.

"God" becomes "maffia boss".
"Satan" becomes someone outside the maffia who tries to pull you out of Cosa Nostra.

How is it different?

Even if the story is real. Even if god is immortal and all-powerfull and created everything. That, in no way, shape or form, magically makes him "the good guy". I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

Might does not make right.

DogmaHunter · Sep 3, 2014

GrowingSmaller said:
Religion can be regarded as symbolic didactics. "Satan"is form of narrative shorthand. He may exist, or may not. But the functionality of the concept is what matters, and has mattered historically and sociologically. It plays to a degree a role in moral education, "skillful living"or wisdom, and has been fairly successful over the millenia.

We are talking about the story as written and are trying to objectively evaluate the morality involved in both characters. I'm not questioning the difference between the concepts of good and evil. I'm questioning the moral attributes of these characters as written in the story.

You may say we have science now, but until people find it a suitable replacement, in their terms and their lives, not yours, well, its a case of "my breads better even though no ones buying it".

It allready is a suitable replacement. We define our morals by the knowledge that we have, not by what is written in a bronze-age book.
Over here in the scientific secular west, we don't stone adulterers to death. We don't enforce silly rules like not working on a certain day. Any form of slavery (ie: "owning" a human as property) is as illegal as it gets. Etc.

When we debate moral dilemma's, we don't go digging in the bible. When it comes to 21st century morals and values, the bible (or any other religious scripture) couldn't be more irrelevant. I know the US hasn't quite reached that point yet though. Over here in Belgium, if in an ethical debate about anything you start your argument with "the bible says...", we are allready moving on to the next speaker.

"Satan exists"is unfalsifiable, but especially in cultures without advanced secular education as an alternative, it may be pretty useful in terms of causing secular goods like health, social cohesion etc. The fact that the concept seems to have "evolved independently" in various faiths indicates to me that it does -in context - have pragmatic value as a psycho-social tool.

Sure, but you just left the subject. Now, you're talking about cultural ideas that contrast "good" with "evil" as concepts and at some point tries to personify (is that a word?) those concepts.

I agree that that is how Satan was born in the christian mythology. What is obvious to me, is that this was done during a time when society was very primitive, barbaric and pretty clueless about the phenomena of nature.
This is when we get to the subject of this thread. If we read this text today, do the characters and does the story objectively reflect the idea that god is good and satan bad? For me, that answer is no - it doesn't.

As I understand it, the North Korea analogy stands. God is a petty dictator and Satan stands upto him, martyr style.

In fact I seem to see that often secularists are more wasteful of their lives in practice (drink, drugs etc and related illness being more prevalent in a modern secular country?) even if they win the debates on paper.

Nice attempted ad hominim. Go tell it to the suicide bombers.

Blessedj01 · Sep 3, 2014

DogmaHunter said:
A priori, I don't really care where you get your information from. Arguments fall and stand on their own merrits. So if you can give me a reasonable and valid argument (from whatever source), I'm all ears.

Cool, well I think it's been posted before. Anyway, the Bible according to my understanding frames Satan as a bad guy. It's all there for anyone to read.

the undetectable 7-headed dragon that created the universe and everything it contains yesterday. It's a religion I invented that I like to call Draconian Yesterdayism.

Sounds like a d&d religion just curious, did you know that satan is described as a dragon?

No. We're just trying to objectively evaluate the biblical story while bending over backwards to operate from the idea that the story is actually real.

Ok but if were assuming it's real we should assume it's all real: like God is just, God doesn't sin, God gave his own life etc - because the Bible is all related.

And even if you don't believe the creator is right, isn't blaming him for the consequences of our own rebellion a bit like slamming the door on mom and dad when you're 11 and screaming "I wish I had never been born!" What's the solution here guys? Do you want god to unmake you?

invite you to take a step backwards and consider this exact paragraphe with a few changes. "God" becomes "maffia boss". "Satan" becomes someone outside the maffia who tries to pull you out of Cosa Nostra. How is it different? Even if the story is real. Even if god is immortal and all-powerfull and created everything. That, in no way, shape or form, magically makes him "the good guy". I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. Might does not make right.

Any analogy where God is a mafia boss doesn't work for me. God is love. You're assuming God was a little bit evil and therefore Satan was kinda justified, but it's not true. God was good and Satan tried to pull me out of that goodness out of jealousy and rage and murderous intent. We aren't talking favourites here? Satan is after my life and my dignity.

Come on man, if you theorise God made everything etc, why do you theorise him to have flaws? He's much more likely in my eyes, to be perfect.

bhsmte · Sep 3, 2014

Blessedj01 said:
Cool, well I think it's been posted before. Anyway, the Bible according to my understanding frames Satan as a bad guy. It's all there for anyone to read.

Sounds like a d&d religion just curious, did you know that satan is described as a dragon?

Ok but if were assuming it's real we should assume it's all real: like God is just, God doesn't sin, God gave his own life etc - because the Bible is all related.

And even if you don't believe the creator is right, isn't blaming him for the consequences of our own rebellion a bit like slamming the door on mom and dad when you're 11 and screaming "I wish I had never been born!" What's the solution here guys? Do you want god to unmake you?

Any analogy where God is a mafia boss doesn't work for me. God is love. You're assuming God was a little bit evil and therefore Satan was kinda justified, but it's not true. God was good and Satan tried to pull me out of that goodness out of jealousy and rage and murderous intent. We aren't talking favourites here? Satan is after my life and my dignity.

Come on man, if you theorise God made everything etc, why do you theorise him to have flaws? He's much more likely in my eyes, to be perfect.

If God was love, he wouldn't doom the majority of the worlds population, because they either don't believe in a God, or believe in the wrong God, and have no regard for the life they led.

Sorry, can't reconcile an all loving God with that type of judgment.

rockytopva · Sep 3, 2014

Cool picture someone posted earlier in this thread!

In prophecy I imagine 11 generations prior to the flood...

Seven church ages and four horseman before Isaac Newton's 2060 AD end time prediction....

Seven church ages - Revelation 3

1. Ephesus - Apostolic - Left their first love
2. Smyrna - Martyr - Foxes has the Roman persecutions as ten
3. Pergamos - Orthodox - A pyrgros is a tower, needed in the dark ages
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Jezebel controlled and dominated
5. Sardis - Protestant - A sardius is a gem - beautiful yet hard and rigid
6. Philadelphia - Wesleyan / Pentecostal - To get sanctified was to acquire it with love
7. Laodica - Charismatic / Word of Faith

Four Horseman - Revelation 6 - As four is the number of the earth so these are four earthly regimes

8. White - Democracy
9. Red - Communism
10. Black - Islamic
11. Pale - The Anti-Christ

In which, as four is the number of the earth, so we will have four who will rule Europe...

1. First Reich - Charlemagne
2. Second Reich - Napoleon
3. Third Reich - Adolph Hitler
4. Fourth Reich - The Anti-Christ

All such very short reigns. And satan himself took delight in meddling in the affairs. I believe that Christ came in with Haley's comet around 12 BC, which was the star that the wise men saw. I believe that Christ will come the second time around 2061 AD, which is very close to Isaac Newton's 2060 AD prediction.

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half.” –Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.

“It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –Isaac Newton

This is Christ's return and not the rapture of the saints. This is when we return with him on earth to reign a 1,000 years. If I had to pick a rapture date it would be seven years before Haley's comet next return, which would be July 28, 2054 (exactly 7 years before Haley's comet official return).

And then, I must reassert Newton's statement... “It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast."

Blessedj01 · Sep 3, 2014

bhsmte said:
If God was love, he wouldn't doom the majority of the worlds population, because they either don't believe in a God, or believe in the wrong God, and have no regard for the life they led. Sorry, can't reconcile an all loving God with that type of judgment.

Come on, none of that is true. The reason we are doomed is because we are free willed and chose to be cut off from our life-giver, who can't associate with evil in order to be consistently holy. so he made a way to come down and rescue us by giving himself, in human form, to atone for us. Then he came back and beat the enemy who's tying to ruin us, gave us all eternal life and he's telling the whole world about it.

Even you know now. So come on, be nice to Jesus. He's always been nice to you. He ain't no bully.

Robban · Sep 3, 2014

Blessedj01 said:
Come on, none of that is true. The reason we are doomed is because we are free willed and chose to be cut off from our life-giver, who can't associate with evil in order to be consistently holy. so he made a way to come down and rescue us by giving himself, in human form, to atone for us. Then he came back and beat the enemy who's tying to ruin us, gave us all eternal life and he's telling the whole world about it.

Even you know now. So come on, be nice to Jesus. He's always been nice to you. He ain't no bully.

According to the story as given in, example Heb 2:14 he did not and will not come back to break the Power of the devil,

According to the story, the biggest temtation/s were not to die.

According to the story he has broken the Power of the devil,

It is finished.

If you claim to have the truth, why don,t you speak it.

Why go around scaring people.

According to the story that is the good news,

According to the story.

Nithavela · Sep 3, 2014

rockytopva said:
Cool picture someone posted earlier in this thread!

In prophecy I imagine 11 generations prior to the flood...

Seven church ages and four horseman before Isaac Newton's 2060 AD end time prediction....

Seven church ages - Revelation 3

1. Ephesus - Apostolic - Left their first love
2. Smyrna - Martyr - Foxes has the Roman persecutions as ten
3. Pergamos - Orthodox - A pyrgros is a tower, needed in the dark ages
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Jezebel controlled and dominated
5. Sardis - Protestant - A sardius is a gem - beautiful yet hard and rigid
6. Philadelphia - Wesleyan / Pentecostal - To get sanctified was to acquire it with love
7. Laodica - Charismatic / Word of Faith

Four Horseman - Revelation 6 - As four is the number of the earth so these are four earthly regimes

8. White - Democracy
9. Red - Communism
10. Black - Islamic
11. Pale - The Anti-Christ

In which, as four is the number of the earth, so we will have four who will rule Europe...

1. First Reich - Charlemagne
2. Second Reich - Napoleon
3. Third Reich - Adolph Hitler
4. Fourth Reich - The Anti-Christ

Utter BS.

Blessedj01 · Sep 3, 2014

Robban said:
According to the story as given in, example Heb 2:14 he did not and will not come back to break the Power of the devil, According to the story, the biggest temtation/s were not to die. According to the story he has broken the Power of the devil, It is finished. If you claim to have the truth, why don,t you speak it. Why go around scaring people. According to the story that is the good news, According to the story.

What?

Blessedj01 · Sep 3, 2014

What? I don't follow you.

All I know is that the passage in Hebrews says:

"Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil--"

bhsmte · Sep 3, 2014

Blessedj01 said:
Come on, none of that is true. The reason we are doomed is because we are free willed and chose to be cut off from our life-giver, who can't associate with evil in order to be consistently holy. so he made a way to come down and rescue us by giving himself, in human form, to atone for us. Then he came back and beat the enemy who's tying to ruin us, gave us all eternal life and he's telling the whole world about it.

Even you know now. So come on, be nice to Jesus. He's always been nice to you. He ain't no bully.

There is really no way around this, no matter how hard you try.

The Christian God set the rules of what was required to be saved and have eternal life and the majority of the world's population will be outcast and doomed.

You can sugar coat it all you want, it is what it is, according to typical Christian dogma.

rockytopva · Sep 3, 2014

Nithavela said:
Utter BS.

All from the mind of Isaac Newton

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half.” –Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v Isaac Newton writes:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.

“It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –Isaac Newton

But... This is Christ's return and not the rapture of the saints. This is when we return with him on earth to reign a 1,000 years. If I had to pick a rapture date it would be seven years before Haley's comet next return, which would be July 28, 2054 (exactly 7 years before Haley's comet official return). And then, I must reassert Newton's statement... “It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

Blessedj01 · Sep 3, 2014

bhsmte said:
There is really no way around this, no matter how hard you try. The Christian God set the rules of what was required to be saved and have eternal life and the majority of the world's population will be outcast and doomed. You can sugar coat it all you want, it is what it is, according to typical Christian dogma.

I have no idea what the actual amounts will be, but what God did was extent his rescue to everybody. We have free will and we can choose not to take hold of the ladder to pull us from the water, but some think they would rather drown because they have plenty toys floating on the surface and they don't think they need a rescue.

It's not sugar coating. You're trying to accuse God but your arms just aren't long enough to box with heaven.

We can cry about it, blame god and feel sorry for ourselves or we can start celebrating that God saved us! We need to let go of the belief that there is no problem. Sin causes death. God has a permanent solution, so start looking at that because we are all going to go wether or not we are happy or bitter about god.

rockytopva · Sep 3, 2014

rockytopva said:
Satan sought to exalt himself above God the Father himself and was cast down...

As three is the number of perfect harmony we have three groups of Angels...

1. Michael - Strong Angels
2. Gabriel - Wise Angels
3. Lucifer - Worshiping Angels

This continued through the eternities until Lucifer's heart began to wax cold with pride...

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nation!For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." - Isaiah 14:12

"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." - Rev 12:3-5

It is my reckonings that Satan was cast out into the void of space...

If E=mc2 then we can divide and conclude that

Matter (m) = E (energy) / c2 (light)

And there are three varieties

Mass Is basically stored energy and light.
Mentality Our thinking can produce an energy and a light!
Spiritually E (energy, motivation, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

If E = mc2 we can assume the inverse, and conclude.

n (nothing) = z (absolute zero) / d (darkness)

And to measure the effects on the spiritual level

n (nothing) emptyness with no motivation
z (absolute zero) cold (dont be a brother polar bear!)
d (darkness) the opposite of faith, hope, charity, and joy would be fear, depression, hate, and sorrow!

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. - 2 Cor 11:14

It is in my imagination, as satan fell, that he was stripped of the true light and energies. As he was an angel of light he attempts to bring light unto planet earth... But because he is not of the true E/c2... There is no warmth about him.

The demonic spirits dwelt in this darkness perhaps millions of years, until the Lord God uttered these words...

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. - Genesis 1:3

This was the big boom.... With God's light and energy the universe was created and the universe has been expanding out ever since. It is my estimation that 15 billions years expired before the utterance of these words...

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. - Genesis 1:5

So... In my estimation Satan has been kicked out of heaven for the period of between 14-16 billion years. It has been so long since he has experienced the true light and energies that he despises it.

Mankind has been created to fill the void left in satans wake. As Lucifer the old dragon does not want us up there playing with his old toys he wars with us over the heavenly stake.

There is a path to Chrisma, or the heavenly anointing. Lucifer had this until ego entered his heart. And... Mankind needs to know this, ego is not anointing of the Spirit but is denomic in its origins.

Satan reveals himself here on planet earth

The Rolling Stones - Sympathy For The Devil -HQ - YouTube

Sympathy for the Devil - The Rolling Stones...

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long years
Stole many a man's soul and faith

And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made d*** sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

I stuck around St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain

I rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
(woo woo, woo woo)

I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
(woo woo, woo woo)

I shouted out,
"Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all
It was you and me
(who who, who who)

Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached Bombay
(woo woo, who who)

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
(who who)
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
(who who, who who)

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint
(who who, who who)

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
(woo woo)
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, um yeah
(woo woo, woo woo)

Unfortunately Satan's favorite playground is the church. Which, if allowed to work, will not only destroy the church, but also those who will be discouraged away as well.

Blessedj01 · Sep 3, 2014

While I get that a satanic spirit perhaps influences media, I don't think that was satan himself revealing himself in sympathy for the devil. I think that's actually what it was: sympathy. Just like this thread. Secular rockers just using the theological idea of satan to tell a story and make light of the fact that satan really is behind a lot of terrible history. They thought they were being cool. Satan would have used that to make himself seem even more of a far fetched Hollywood bad guy who doesn't really exist, or gain favour from people who think he's got something to offer. I doubt he would have cared if it revealed him or not.

Why is satan the bad guy?

No one important

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