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Why is man's heart so desperately wicked?

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iLove

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The flesh is the human nature operating without God. We must understand that God sets up the circumstances that you will know Him. No one can come to Jesus unless God allows it! The foreknowledge about us started when we once walked with God in heaven. God stated, "I knew you before I formed you in your mothers womb". So it's not who you are...it's who He is.

Example: The story of Joshua and the children of Israel; they were in the land of milk and honey while the people where still in Canaan. They were talking about the grapes, fruits, and pineapples, while the people was talking about the giants. Two people seeing the same thing and different thoughts. Let us focus on the promise and not the pain; the promotion and not the problem.

There are good ideas and Godly ideas. Always chose the Godly ideas over the good ideas. The good ideas are from the flesh that may be be allowed but will not be blessed.
 
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iLove

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John 6:44 " No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him to Me.

John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you.

Romans 3:11 "There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. No one seeks God until the Father draws him and no one chooses this on their own.

If the Father didn't draw one to Christ, no one would believe; no one would seek God.
 
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Lilly Owl

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Steve.Page said:
Or it could be that we are born pure and become sinners due to the conditioning of the world.
Click to expand...

That's an option too.

People are led to believe either or. They're born sinners, having inherited sin down from the line of Adam. Or they're pure born and sinner isn't something they innately are rather, sin is something we do.
 
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mandelduke

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Good question and Paul gives the answer in Romans 7:15-24. God judges our intentions not our works.
Romans 7:15-24
New International Version (NIV)

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
 
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Steve.Page

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Lilly Owl said:
That's an option too.

People are led to believe either or. They're born sinners, having inherited sin down from the line of Adam. Or they're pure born and sinner isn't something they innately are rather, sin is something we do.
Click to expand...

I never could really see how we could be born sinners or inherit a sin nature. Is that nature in our physical DNA? In our spiritual DNA? It can't be in our spiritual DNA because the Lord gives us our spirit. Also if I'm to believe that we are sinners from the womb, aren't we sinners when we are still in the womb? Are all those aborted babies lost?

It's interesting that twenty years old seems to be a significant age in the OT for military service, etc. Sort of an age of accountability.
 
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allykelly07

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We are born sinners. You can see the intentions to take things away from other kids, you can see the I want mentality all of the time, it is our sinful nature, its selfish and evil. We will always have the sinful nature even when we come to Christ, that is why christ said to die to ourselves daily, and to bring our kids up in the way they should go. You would be surprised at how many verses speak of children being born in sin. I can post them here if you would like.
 
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IneedChrist

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There's a lot of good biblical Christ centered answers on this thread I created. I've learned a lot.

But is fear and shame just a consequence of Adam and Eve's sin, or is fear the main element of rebellion? A lot of places say pride is the main element. But pride is a coping mechanism for being afraid.

In 1 John 4:18, John wrote

talking about God's love: "Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love."

and in John 3:20

"All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed."

I believe God is very aware of human fear and pride, and why it happens in the typical unbeliever to reject Jesus, and why it happens in a believer's life to doubt and not trust that well. I believe God is merciful toward the rebellion of fearfulness and pride because we all have been there. I have. And I didn't do anything special to merit God's grace.

God meets us where we are... rebellious, prideful, fearful, and full of sin in order to love us and save us from our sin. (But God showed His great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners - Romans 5:8).

So it certainly is a case of God choosing us, not the other way around. Our part is that we should ponder God's kindness and repent, (Romans 2:4) considering his long-suffering and patience toward us.
 
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Norah63

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Very well put about the fear. Having seen that in so many cases. It can manifest in rebellion, or look like pride and boasting, yet as you say, the root is fear.
Fallen man knows that he doesn't measure up to a holy God, so also as Adam , he hides, from himself and others and God.
Hides behind all the ways he can find, for fear of being found out.
The spiritual person wants their heart examined by God. We asked to be searched, and shown what we need to keep clear of. Knowing we can be misled if we don't stay on guard. We pray, 'suffer us not to be led into temptation, but deliver us from evil'. Looking to the author and finisher of our faith, Christ Jesus.
 
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allykelly07

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Amen Norah! Pride comes before the fall. We can give in to that, the fear of our sins being exposed in the glorious light of Christ. Yes "see if there is any wicked way in me oh God", He "tests our hearts". Thank you for this post, it seems you understand how we can be tempted and give in, rather than constantly being on guard of ourselves, even testing ourselves daily, to see if we are in the faith. He is the author and finisher of our faith, if we continue to hold on to His word, and live by His Spirit till the end. In Christ, Ally
 
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Steve.Page

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We are only accountable for our words and actions. Babies do not know right from wrong, they are not accountable. I'm fully aware of the proof verses that are used. I'm also aware of what they say in context.

Deuteronomy 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

Jeremiah 31:30 Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes--his own teeth will be set on edge.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

Galatians 6:4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load.

Peace
 
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FreeinChrist

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IneedChrist

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I believe that the moment we are born we are already sinners.. Anything else means the baby is perfect. Look at a case where the baby has a deformity. No, it wasn't the baby's fault.. but sin caused it. The moment we're born we're infected with sin. I do believe, though, that in the fullness of God's love and grace, he doesn't impute wickedness to a baby just because he isn't baptized yet or taking responsibility for his selfish actions. There is a point at which the baby reaches a cognitive decision to follow Jesus or not. That may be 8 or 12 or 21 years old. Depends on the person - only God knows.

We are born into sin, and the fear of punishment is proof we don't know God's love. That's biblical. It's out of Jesus' mouth (John 3:20) and out of the mouth of John (1 John 4:18).
 
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