Why is it that many Christians

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Before God teaches anyone,
so likewise before I would even attempt it,
they have to love the truth first, and want to learn from God,
and seek it from Him and His Word.

That's partly why I posted "for research" see ?

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I'm going to take that as, "I don't have the examples you were asking for but I don't want to concede your point."

Sketcher said:

I'm going to take that as, "I don't have the examples you were asking for but I don't want to concede your point."

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That's okay. (There's no point to concede yet. re RESEARCH if you want to know the truth... it's not something that could be covered in the next 3 weeks even. )
(God is Perfect and Just in all He does).

pat34lee said:

Is any sin good if it is rebellion against God?
Jesus said lust is the same as adultery and
hate the same as murder.

What was Lucifer's sin that caused him to
fall? Pride. And he was the most perfect and
beautiful of all the angels.

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But why is Murder the same as eating shrimp?

Hank77 said:

Hmm...I never thought of that as meaning 'remember' as remembering something from the past, but more like saying something like, 'Remember to do something.'
Exo 20:8 `Remember the Sabbath-day to sanctify it;
Exo 20:9 six days thou dost labour, and hast done all thy work,
Exo 20:10 and the seventh day is a Sabbath to Yehovah thy God; thou dost not do any work,...

Maybe God is preserving the Shabbat. It is important to fellowship and worship together.

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Agreed my friend, he does conclude when he gives the Shabbat commandment that in six days He made the heavens and the earth so my interpretation has always been to remember from creation Exo 20:11

yeshuaslavejeff said:

No worry. Galatians is perfect, not contrary to God's Law.
See Wuest Study Expanded Greek (free pdf) on Galatians (a difficult, time consuming read , although plain and straight forward (no twisting words nor language); just not easy for people today to grasp, how totally evil society is )

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Thanks brother, I will look at this I appreciate the information

Hank77 said:

Well, when one witnesses and speaks the Gospel to others very often we are asked these types of questions. Our own children and grandchildren ask these types of questions. It's a good thing to have an answer ready, if there is an answer in God's Word. Don't you think so?
God doesn't expect us to leave our brain on a shelf, He expects us to use it to glorify Him.

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Great discussion, I just wanted to add the comment that God spoke the world into exsistance with words. I have been learning how much meaning just one small letter in the Hebrew alphabet offers. God is so amazing even in the most subtle of things just one solitary letter has so much power!! It sure can make a person realize how much we don't know, it's pretty humbling .

Sketcher said:

Can you list such Gentiles from the OT? There was very high praise of Cyrus, but he was Zorastrian.
Cornelius didn't keep all of God's commandments, he wasn't circumcised. Nor was keeping Sabbath listed among his virtues when the angel came to visit him.

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Friend, where does the word say Cornelius was not keeping the Shabbat?

1John2:4 said:

Thanks for your reply, I would not really call our banter arguing, I prefer the term debate, I believe we have been rather respectful to each other. I would absolutely love to live by the Creators system, no interest to your family members, give homes back, set slaves free, the Shemita or year of jubilee. What a marvelous system it would be if we only lived by it, in the Kingdom we will. Unfortunately, we as humans, created our own system using our own understanding. Look at the mess we made, trying to control things, using greed as our beacon. Striving for numbers, everything numbers, in our businesses and in our churches. We count everything and we have forgotten God, forsaken our fear of Him. I guess, as Solomon said "nothing new under the sun." It grieves my spirit, I long for the day when we no longer are slaves to the system of man. However, one day per week I can hide from it, I can gather under His wing. That day is the Sabbath day my friend, for one day I am not a slave of the system of man, I can have a Holy convocation with our Creator. Even in Diaspora we can worship Him and we can keep our temple (our own bodies) from being defiled from unclean food. Daniel is a great example, he did not defile himself with the kings food, and he continued to worship contrary to the world at that time. I am grateful I live in USA and for now I am free to worship on the day I choose. Others in the world are not so fortunate they are persecuted for worshiping.

In response to some disagreements I have with your post, Noah brought into the arc 7 of every clean and 2 of every unclean so he knew the difference. We don't really know if what Abraham kept was different from the law of Moses, It just states that Abraham kept His commandments, His statutes and His charge. The milk and meat thing is a Jewish tradition, the law states not to boil a kid in his mothers milk, it does not have anything to do with cheeseburgers. As I understand the sheet sent down from heaven to Peter was about men not food. Even my kids bible app said it is about men.

I am sorry that you see Messianics as Judaizers. I think we are all just trying to help each other find truth, believe me, I have been clobbered with the book of Galatians more times than I can count, but I know in my heart that the people that clobber me with it are just trying to help.

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What you said is very good, and I largely agree with it. However, there are two factual details which I think are of fundamental importance, both in God's law itself - particularly in the light of Christ - that for me are very important, and that challenge the symmetry of the model you've provided.

The first is the thought that there can be no interest charged to family. Jesus called all those who followed him his mother, and his brothers and sisters. Therefore, in a Christian nation such as ours, no interest could be charged - and interest-bearing debts could not be enforced - by or upon about 85% of the population. "Family" would mean all Christians and Jews. It would mean that there could be no interest system in Europe, America or Latin America, except for non-Christians and non-Jews. And it would mean that the state couldn't enforce it, as democratic states have fractionated the crown, making the voters directly responsible, as rulers for the moral content of the laws. I think this would be great, but you're the only Christian I've met who has actually stated what sounds like agreement to this principle, and I wanted to be sure that you clearly understood that "family" in the Christian sense means every Christian in the whole world.

The second is a hard, sharp disagreement. When I read what happened on that roof, what God specifically did, lowering the sheet, and specifically said to Peter: to kill and eat. And the specific admonition against Peter's objection that he'd never eaten anything unclean, that what God has made clean you are NOT to call profane! I see God did that three times. It is very direct, very real, very literal.

When I read men say that that was all about other men, and NOT about food. I am disgusted and I am outraged. BY EXTENSION that may well have been about baptizing Gentiles, but it was DIRECTLY about food. God said EAT. Eat. Do we eat men? Here is what I see - it is obvious. God does a very direct, literal thing. And he does it three times to make the point. He uses explicit words and explicit things. And what God literally says and does here matches up very perfectly with what Matthew wrote when Jesus gave his discourse about food and cleanliness. "Jesus made all foods clean."

I read men who want to hold onto the old traditions, because they cannot accept that God changes laws, directly overriding direct, clear, visible and oral, commands of God, in order to assert the old understanding. This is nothing more than what the Pharisees did. I reject it. God made ALL foods clean, explicitly, and he commanded men to STOP pretending otherwise.

I see all words that say otherwise as a direct, belligerent challenge to God's final word on the subject. I have read what you have said before, about even BIBLES being written to twist the words of God - which are so unambiguously CLEAR on this point - and say that it's not about what it is about.

It raises in me real anger, and it tells me, frankly, that these men who do this are directly defying God in order to cling to a tradition.

On that small, hard stone the whole edifice falls for me. It is IMPERATIVE that Christians not call any animal foods unclean. God COMMANDED us to not call unclean that which God has made clean. The Holy Spirit commanded it with direct visual imagery. It is not ambiguous. At all. Not even a little bit. When I see that which is clear and unambiguous MADE ambiguous, it makes me angry, because I see men deliberately rejecting explicitly commandments of God in order to do what they want.

I must reject and walk away from theology built on that, because it is obvious wrong. I have heard the arguments that it's not about food, and I cannot believe that anybody can read that text, read what happened, and then put that in the context of Jesus making all foods clean, and then the Council of Jerusalem, of the Apostles, with Peter seated right there, removing all food restrictions (is that where the whole Apostolate went Apostate), and Paul doing the same thing in his ministry - to then read that all 13 Apostles and Christ and the Holy Spirit are to be disregarded on food, that food laws that didn't apply until Sinai continue to apply AFTER Christ, the Holy Spirit, and all 13 Apostles specifically said otherwise - it arouses in me a strong sense of spiritual repulsion. I SEE the Devil's lips moving, luring people away from the simple path.

Pork is clean. Shellfish are clean. God said so by Jesus' lips, and the Holy Spirit made it UTTERLY clear - and commanded men to NOT call them unclean anymore. God made them clean. Period. No, the Holy Spirit was not simply obliquely talking about accepting Gentiles when he was talking about EATING KILLED ANIMALS! He was talking about unclean food being clean, and by extension, Gentiles don't have to be circumcised. And ALL THIRTEEN APOSTLES understood exactly that, which is why they all said it univocally at the Council of Jerusalem.

Satan whispers "No, not so! You still must follow the old rules. Ignore Jesus. Ignore the Holy Spirit. Ignore the Church."

I reject Satan. Pork is clean food for the whole world. Doesn't mean you have to eat pork. It does mean that when a man profanes pork, calling it unclean, that he is directly defying the Holy Spirit, Jesus and the Church. And he is wrong.

This is IMPORTANT to me, because it's a place where God repeated himself, made clear, clean, open visions, that were recorded, that EXPLICITLY say what the law is now. And all 13 Apostles understood exactly that and said so.

I reject the reasoning of men that causes them to disregard a direct, five-times-repeated New Testament commandment in favor of an old covenant commandment. THAT is Judaizing. And I believe it to be morally wrong, because I see DIRECT DEFIANCE of God.

And because of that, I cannot, and will not, follow the rest of the argument. On this point, the Judaizers must yield, because they are clearly defying God. Pork is clean. God commanded it so. It is wrong, it is actually evil, to continue to insist that it is not. God did not leave us a choice. He said YOU ARE NOT TO CALL UNCLEAN WHAT GOD HAS MADE CLEAN.

And that means just precisely that. My hard, round Basque head cannot accept a turning to the left or to the right from a direct, explicitly, imaged, thrice repeated commandment of God, foreshadowed by Jesus in Matthew, and ratified by all 13 Apostles. It cannot be an open question, because it is not.

When men debate it anyway, what I see is men who will literally change anything Jesus said in order to fit their notions. And I have no confidence in the theology.

That's the truth. The food issue is an absolute deal breaker for me, because it is so utterly clear, four times stated directly by God himself. and restated by all 13 Apostles. On this matter, all men must yield completely, or they are wrong, and very stubbornly so.

Given that it is so clear to me, perhaps you can see that when I hear men trying to argue against what God clearly said, I see the lips of Satan and hear his voice, and it really makes me angry.

Which is why I say truly that you are COMMITTED to your viewpoint, and this is WHY I can never, ever accept it.
And it's why I don't think that going back and forth over it can do any more good. You are certain. And so am I.
And we are dealing with a direct commandment of God here. A New Covenant commandment that makes it explicitly clear that the Jewish Commandments are not for Christians on this matter, and that there is a different rule when it comes to Salvation.

It is of fundamental importance to me. It's a breakpoint on which I can compromise nothing. There is no law in the Bible, and certainly none in the New Testament, that was ever made clearer, plainer and more direct, than God's three times lowering that sheet, three times commanding Peter, head of the Church, to do something specific that broke the Mosaic Law, and three times sternly admonishing Peter that what God has made clean he is NOT to call unclean. Not anymore.

We see things differently, and we cannot cross this impasse. For me to accept what you are saying about food would be for me to directly, explicitly and knowingly defy God. I will not do it. I can be agreeable about it to a point, when that issue is in the mass of other issues. But when it comes to a hard, fine point, I cannot walk away from God to follow the errors of men, and if I have to keep talking about it, I can't continue to mask my real revulsion at doctrines that directly defy what God said and did.

God made all foods clean. Pork is clean. That's God's final word on it, and I cannot swerve from what I know to be true.

pat34lee said:

Start with the first. I agree with the part creation to the flood.

You know that Noah knew the difference between clean and
unclean animals, don't you? (Genesis 7:2) Why was that?

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It doesn't matter. God's final word on the matter was this:

Lowers from heaven a sheet full of animals unclean under the Mosaic law. Tells the designated head of the Church, St. Peter, "Kill and eat." Peter objects, saying 'I've never eaten anything unclean!' God replies "Do not call unclean what God has made clean."
Repeat three times.

This follows up Jesus' own discourse that nothing that comes from outside a man makes him unclean. And Matthew's helpful note: "Thus did Jesus make all foods clean".

All 13 Apostles (the 12 + Paul) at the Council of Jerusalem understood this, which is why the Council proclaimed to the whole Church, as regard to food, only to abstain from that which is strangled, and to abstain from blood.

We've got God saying three times that what was unclean is now clean, and showing the very animals, and telling Peter to kill and eat.

That's the final word on it, so that's the law. What the "clean" animals meant to Noah is a question. Perhaps it meant animals from which men get milk. Doesn't matter anyway, for the law NOW is very clear.

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