Why is it that many Christians

[pat34lee]

Why is it that many Christians only cry 'legalism' when their favorite
sin comes up? Murder, lying, theft, sodomy; very few have a problem
believing they are still sins. But bring up pork or shrimp, or keeping
the correct Sabbath day, and they are instantly offended.

 

[jacks]

Murder vs Shrimp. Is this really your question?

 

[pat34lee]

Murder vs Shrimp. Is this really your question?

Is any sin good if it is rebellion against God?
Jesus said lust is the same as adultery and
hate the same as murder.

What was Lucifer's sin that caused him to
fall? Pride. And he was the most perfect and
beautiful of all the angels.

 

[Soyeong]

Why is it that many Christians only cry 'legalism' when their favorite
sin comes up? Murder, lying, theft, sodomy; very few have a problem
believing they are still sins. But bring up pork or shrimp, or keeping
the correct Sabbath day, and they are instantly offended.

Or why is it that obeying the 613 commands in the OT is legalism while obeying the 1,050 commands in the NT isn't?

 

[Sketcher]

As a Gentile, the Sabbath and the kosher diet never applied to me.

 

[orangeness365]

I think in the New Testament, it says in this passage that all food is clean. I'm not sure about the Sabbath though. I know Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Romans 14:13-23

Do Not Cause Another to Stumble

13Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.c 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.d


Mark 2:23-28

Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath

23One Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24And the Pharisees were saying to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” 25And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: 26how he entered the house of God, in the time ofd Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?” 27And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”

 

[pat34lee]

As a Gentile, the Sabbath and the kosher diet never applied to me.

When do you think the Sabbath was ordained?
The very first week, after God finished creation.

When did God, not Paul or any human, tell us that
the Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday?
Never.

Of course, kosher is the Jewish form of eating clean
foods listed in Leviticus 11. They added quite a few
laws of their own.

When God called certain animals an abomination,
though, that is not just concerning the Jews. It should
concern anyone wanting to keep their body as a temple
of God. Something fit for him to inhabit. Would you live
in a house full of filth and disease?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why is it that many Christians only cry 'legalism' when their favorite
sin comes up? Murder, lying, theft, sodomy; very few have a problem
believing they are still sins. But bring up pork or shrimp, or keeping
the correct Sabbath day, and they are instantly offended.

Have you watched a number of the cop shows / documentaries/ investigations ?

Often, whenever an officer is accused of something,
guess who does all they can to "back him up" instead of ascertain what is right and true ?

So people, when they sin, 'automatically' seek "back up" and support from other sinners instead of truth and justice from the Judge.

Only in Christ, can anyone live a blameless life, and have a clean and clear conscience before
the Perfect Righteous Throne of Judgment.

If they sin, they will always feel guilty, if they have a conscience.

But they won't admit it. They won't confess nor repent of their sin.

Unless God softens their heart.

 

[pat34lee]

I think in the New Testament, it says in this passage that all food is clean. I'm not sure about the Sabbath though. I know Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Romans 14:13-23

I'll get back to the Sabbath, but the verses in Romans are
not about eating clean food.

"Romans 14:21 shows that meat offered to idols was the underlying issue of this chapter: “It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.” The Romans of the day commonly offered both meat and wine to idols, with portions of the offerings later sold in the marketplace."
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...olish-gods-law/does-romans-14-abolish-laws-on

Would you consider human meat food? Some people
would, but it isn't clean and not made for eating. Pork is
exactly the same. Pigs have a job, and it isn't being a food
source.

As for clean and unclean animals being for Jews only, even
Noah knew the difference, because he took only two each of
all unclean animals, but seven each of clean ones (for eating
and for sacrifices.) This was still centuries before Abraham,
Isaac or Jacob, much less Moses.

Actually, before I go on to the Sabbath, what exactly does
anyone see about observing the Sabbath that puts them up
in arms against it?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Actually, before I go on to the Sabbath, what exactly does
anyone see about observing the Sabbath that puts them up
in arms against it?

Perhaps it infringes on their God given right to sin, and it is easier and more fun to sin than it is
to admit
guilt.
It is strange though, this one, since all of the disciples in the Scripture, OT and NT, Torah, Jews and Righteous gentiles(identified in OT and NT) ALL kept the 7th day the same as NOT KILLING, NOT STEALING and NOT having any other gods and NOT having ANY IDOLS at all.
People today kill without concern, steal without thinking it is wrong,
have idols without even a thought of how much it dishonors God....
oh --- sorry --- but notice --- people commit a lot of sin.... not just break the sabbath.... without repenting.

 

[Serving Zion]

In truth, The Ten Commandments apply equally to Jew and Gentile Christian, seeing as The Ten Commandments were stipulated as the most primary basis to sanctify God's people whether by covenant of Moses or Jesus. Christians are not exempt from keeping The Ten Commandments, and if they think they are, then it is not Christianity that they are observing.

As one grows with sincere faith according to the prompts of The Holy Spirit, they will also find their conscience leading them to observe the same lifestyle that is the custom of a holy people, that was established by the ancient Jews and decreed by written code. They will come to see why some meats are unclean to a holy people. Yet, the scriptures do say that it is a gradual process (Hebrews 10:14).

Law imposed produces resentment, but when one lives out the law by love then it really comes to life.

Romans 5:1-2, Romans 5:9, Romans 8:1-4, Hebrews 10:36-39.

Thus we see that God condemns in the Old Testament, those who despise The Sabbath (Amos 8:5), but He blesses those who give honour to Him by keeping it (Isaiah 58:13-14).

I suggest any Christian who does not keep The Sabbath, you should try it. Make no plans for The Sabbath day, let it be the day that belongs to Jesus from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, and let Him guide you all day. It is glorious, and you will know instantly the moment you profane it when the tranquil peace is destroyed.

do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. [..] Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Romans 11

 

[Sketcher]

When do you think the Sabbath was ordained?
The very first week, after God finished creation.

When did God, not Paul or any human, tell us that
the Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday?
Never.

Agreed, but there is no command for non-Jews outside of Israel to keep Sabbath. And that's part of Israel's being set apart anyway.

Of course, kosher is the Jewish form of eating clean
foods listed in Leviticus 11. They added quite a few
laws of their own.

When God called certain animals an abomination,
though, that is not just concerning the Jews. It should
concern anyone wanting to keep their body as a temple
of God. Something fit for him to inhabit. Would you live
in a house full of filth and disease?

And then we have Acts 15, which doesn't tell us to avoid the meat of animals that to Jews are unclean. Just blood (which according to the Jewish standard, fish blood does not count) and the meat of strangled animals.

 

[Hieronymus]

As a Gentile, the Sabbath and the kosher diet never applied to me.

Why would the 4th Commandment be an exception then?
God hallowed the sabbath already in Genesis 2.

 

[expos4ever]

Or why is it that obeying the 613 commands in the OT is legalism while obeying the 1,050 commands in the NT isn't?

Because both Paul and Jesus declare the law of Moses has come to an end.

 

[expos4ever]

As a Gentile, the Sabbath and the kosher diet never applied to me.

Correct. How can someone versed in Scripture not know thus?

 

[Soyeong]

Agreed, but there is no command for non-Jews outside of Israel to keep Sabbath. And that's part of Israel's being set apart anyway.

God has always been holy, righteous, and good, so He has always had such a conduct, and His law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) because it is based on His character and it is His instructions for how have such a conduct. So the way to do what his holy, righteous, and good existed from the beginning independently of any covenant and would exist even if God had made no covenants with man, so having such a conduct is about identifying with God, not a specific group of people. Anyone who identifies as one of God's chosen people through faith in Messiah, who has faith in Him for how they should live, and seeks to do what is holy, righteous, and good should follow the instructions that God has given to His people for how to do so. According to Deuteronomy 7:6, Israel is God's chosen people, a holy nation, and a treasure of God's own possession and according to 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as being part of that, so it is not just Israel that is to be set apart. Jesus always kept the Sabbath, and all who identify as his followers who abide in him should follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), should walk in the same way that he walk (1 John 2:4-6), imitate him (1 Corinthians 11:1), and be like him (Philippians 2:5), not leave all that for just the Jews to do.

And then we have Acts 15, which doesn't tell us to avoid the meat of animals that to Jews are unclean. Just blood (which according to the Jewish standard, fish blood does not count) and the meat of strangled animals.

There are 1,050 commands in the NT, so if you think that the four laws in Acts 15 as an exclusive list, then that would exclude over 99% of the commands in the NT including the teachings of Jesus, but if you think that those four laws were clearly never intended to be an exhaustive list, that I'd agree with you. In the same way that an employer does require a new employed to learn everything they will ever need to know about how to do their jobs, those four laws were a starting point with the excuse that they would continue to learn the rest every Sabbath in the synagogues (Acts 15:21), which implies that Gentiles were already keeping God's Sabbath in obedience to His commands.

As a Gentile, the Sabbath and the kosher diet never applied to me.

In 1 Peter 1:14-16, we are told to have a holy conduct, and then verse 16 references Leviticus 11:44-45 where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which include God's dietary laws. It should also be straightforward that keeping God's holy days is also part of how to have a holy conduct (Leviticus 19:2-3).

 

[Soyeong]

I'm not sure about the Sabbath though. I know Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Romans 14:13-23

Do Not Cause Another to Stumble

13Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.c 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.d

There is a difference between ritual purity and dietary laws and translating them both as clean and unclean confuses the distinction. Animals never went back and forth between being kosher and non-kosher, but they could go through cycles of being ritually pure and impure. The context of Romans 14 is in the first verse where it is about how to handle disputable matters of human opinion, not about whether to obey what God has commanded. So for example, they were not disputing whether to obey God's command against committing idolatry, but they did dispute whether it counts as idolatry if you unknowingly eat meat that had been sacrificed to idols. Some were of the disputable opinion that all meat of unknown origin at a community meal should be considered to be ritually impure and thus they ate only vegetables (Romans 14:2), but Paul was saying that all the food at the meal was ritually pure, and the word that he used in Romans 14:20 only is used in the context of ritual purity. If you take statements about ritual purity laws and apply them to God's dietary laws, then you are taking them out of context.

I think in the New Testament, it says in this passage that all food is clean.

People of different cultures have different concepts of what counts as food, so in order to correctly understand Mark 7:19, we need to keep in mind that the context was one Jew speaking to other Jews about food, and the things that they considered to be in the category of all food was only the things that God had said were food in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. For example, a cannibal who thought that Mark 7:19 was saying it was now ok to eat human flesh as food would be taking it out of context. Eating pork was completely anathema to Jews and they weren't even allowed to raise pigs, so the thought of eating pork would never have crossed their minds. Rather, the discussion was about a man-made ritual purity law (Mark 7:3-4) where people could become defiled by eating with unwashed hands and at the end of the conversation (Matthew 15:20) Jesus was still saying that we do not become defiled with unwashed hands, so he never jumped topics to God's dietary laws.

Mark 2:23-28

Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath

23One Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24And the Pharisees were saying to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” 25And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: 26how he entered the house of God, in the time ofd Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?” 27And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”

Jesus was not saying that obeying God's command to keep the Sabbath was optional, but that the Sabbath was made for our benefit. Indeed, all of God's laws are for our own good (Deuteronomy 10:13).

 

[Soyeong]

Because both Paul and Jesus declare the law of Moses has come to an end.

God is holy, righteous, and good and His law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), so God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness would first need to come to an end before the law of Moses could come to an end. Jesus said that not the least part of the law would disappear until heaven and earth pass away and all is accomplished (Matthew 5:17-19), which are both essentially saying that God's law will never come to an end, which is in agreement with other passages of the Bible that describe God's law as being eternal (Psalms 119:160). Paul also continued to live in accordance with the law (Acts 21:24) and said that our faith does not abolish the law, but rather it upholds it (Romans 3:31). So neither of them made that declaration, but in fact declared just the opposite.

Correct. How can someone versed in Scripture not know thus?

A better question: how can anyone versed in Scripture think that Gentiles are free to be lawless? Gentiles have not been redeemed for God's law, but rather from lawlessness (Titus 2:14).

 

[expos4ever]

God is holy, righteous, and good and His law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), so God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness would first need to come to an end before the law of Moses could come to an end.

No. Just because something is good and righteous does not mean it cannot come to an end. And more specifically, just because God is holy and righteous does not mean the Law of Moses - which God indeed instituted - cannot come to an end.

If I undergo surgery is the doctor doing something righteous to fix me up? Of course. Does that mean the surgery will have to last forever or we could not call the surgery a good and righteous thing? Of course not.

The Law of Moses is part of an evolving redemption narrative. It played its role, and now it is set aside. Paul is crystal clear about this in several places:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

In all candor, how could Paul not be more clear - the Law is no longer needed, just as a graduating student no longer needs the tutor.

 

[expos4ever]

Jesus said that not the least part of the law would disappear until heaven and earth pass away and all is accomplished (Matthew 5:17-19), which are both essentially saying that God's law will never come to an end,....

Not if we respect Biblical precedent about such "end of the world" language gets used.

There is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul so forcefully argues (e.g. Eph 2:15): In Hebrew culture, “end of the world” language was commonly used metaphorically to invest commonplace events with theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of use of “end of the world” imagery to describe much more “mundane” events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away” is an apocalyptic metaphor?

It is Jesus’ death on the Cross where He proclaims “It is accomplished”. Note how this dovetails perfectly with the 5:18 declaration that the Law would remain until all is accomplished. Seeing things this way allows us to honour the established tradition of metaphorical end-of-the-world imagery and to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.