Why is hell even necessary?

LOCO · Jul 10, 2011

gradyll said:
oh I didn't see the description for the forum. But to answer the op of the forum, hell is necessary to deter from sin, thats its purpose. If I decide to sin a lot, that means I need to fear repercussions in hell. What ever the church I go to doesn't matter, it's a sin thing. The soul that sins shall die ezekiel says. But there are nicer verses, but not regarding hell. of which is the point of the forum.

Remember your audience, you are conversing with the OP who is an atheist so Bible verses probably mean little to him/her.

There is no need to try to convert or prove that his view is wrong.

For Christians the Truth stands alone, like an island. For others not so.

Hell is definitely the destination if one sins repeatedly and without repent. Hell should not be the reason for someone not to sin. We should avoid sinning because we want to keep the Commandments, do what is right, we want to obey God, honour our families, obey State laws etc.

I have a Baptist friend who converted because she read about Hell and it terrified her. What a peculiar reason to convert. You should convert because you love Jesus more than you fear Hell and/or the Holy Spirit has touched your heart.

Love will always conquer fear.

For every bad behaviour there should be consequences. Repeated bad behaviour gets more time in the sinbin, more timeout, expulsion or jailtime. It happens here on earth e.g. murderers are put to death in some countries.

For some people bad behaviour on earth earns time in front of two Judges. The earthly and heavenly Judge.

The ones who slip through on earth due to a technicality, they're famous, rich or just happened to get away with it. They will face the heavenly judge one day.

Many dislike or discount the doctrine of Hell because of several reasons:

a) Frankly, who would want to go there
b) They do not want to be held accountable for their actions or inaction
c) It is convenient to just live and hope that the majority of the world who do believe in a deity is wrong
d) If they are an atheist heaven/hell does not exist so it's not a issue
e) Many enjoy living unexamined lives

Hell from the Christian perspective is just permanent timeout.

'For many people who stop believing in God, it’s not that they believe in nothing, but that they believe in everything.' - GK Chesterton

razeontherock · Jul 10, 2011

DontTreadOnMike said:
I never said that's why YOU go to church. I said that's why the doctrine of hell exists in the first place.

No, I think it exists in the first place because Jesus spoke about it. More than everyone else in the Bible combined!

DontTreadOnMike · Jul 10, 2011

razeontherock said:
No, I think it exists in the first place because Jesus spoke about it. More than everyone else in the Bible combined!

And why do you think the authors of the Bible had Jesus talk about hell?

DontTreadOnMike · Jul 10, 2011

LOCO said:
Hello Don'ttreadonmike,

Just an interjection here, that is not what a majority of Christians believe. Catholic Christians (1billion plus) are the majority of Christians and we are free to believe in Genesis or a theistic evolutionary process.

It doesn't matter because God has a hand in ALL creation.

For Catholics we are free to believe that God chose the Genesis 6 day method to create Adam/Eve, nature and the universe or we can choose to believe a theistic evolutionary process made Adam/Eve etc...which may have taken longer. What is a day to God?

There is debate over whether the Genesis story is to be taken to mean a literal 6 day or a longer period.

The Genesis creation story was written by Jewish scribes and throughout history and today they have never interpreted it literally. The literal interpretation of the Genesis creation story is a new manmade invention.

Catholics are not allowed to believe that the soul evolved. It was specially made by God and is not inherited from our parents like our bodies.

For Catholics creation vs evolution is not important in the bigger scheme because believing in either does not determine whether you go to heaven or hell.

Sorry for butting in, just had to make the correction there.

Thank you!

It's true that MOST people who accept evolution believe in a god. And MOST Christians accept evolution. I was actually going to make that point earlier but decided against it because, as I'm sure you know better than I do, many protestants don't consider catholics to be true Christians. I didn't know if that argument would have been dismissed out of hand so I didn't use it. But it's true.

razeontherock · Jul 10, 2011

DontTreadOnMike said:
And why do you think the authors of the Bible had Jesus talk about hell?

That's a loaded question Anyway backing up a bit, you said I'm hard to talk to because I "make you guess" what I might believe. No I don't. If I didn't spell it out, it's because it's not significant to the topic. Which does not result in creating strawmen suddenly being a good thing.

The objective is not to follow me, but to follow Christ. As Paul said, if there happens to be an area where I am following Christ, you can follow me on that because in doing so you are following Christ, but it's much simpler (more direct, and error-free) to just leave me out of it.

You and I can exchange POV on equal footing. Jesus and I? Not so much. He spoke about hell for His own reasons, which are synonymous w/ the reasons of the Almighty. Any abuse that arose from that is strictly human corruption.

DontTreadOnMike · Jul 10, 2011

razeontherock said:
That's a loaded question

Haha

Well you're the one who loaded your statement with an assumption that Jesus existed and that Jesus said the things he was reported to have said in the Bible.

Anyway backing up a bit, you said I'm hard to talk to because I "make you guess" what I might believe. No I don't. If I didn't spell it out, it's because it's not significant to the topic. Which does not result in creating strawmen suddenly being a good thing.

You're right. But most of the time, if you think I'm creating a strawman, I'm actually just reverting to the views and arguments that other Christians have actually presented to me because, like I said, I don't know what you believe on every subject and you won't tell me haha.

I know your objective is not for me to learn what you believe but Christians are so fractured on what the Bible says that in order to engage with one of you, I pretty much have to know what you think. If we were debating the doctrine of the rapture, it doesn't help me at all for you to say "well what does Jesus say about it?" You could hold the belief that the rapture happens before the tribulation, after the tribulation, or not at all. If you ask 3 Christians about what Jesus said on a specific topic you'll get 4 answers. So to have any point of reference for a discussion, I have to know what you believe or else every time I make an argument you'll just say, "Well that's not what I believe."

"Well then what do you believe?"

"I believe what ever Jesus said."

See what I'm saying?

He spoke about hell...

Excuse me sir, but where you there?

Sorry! Sorry. I accidentally reverted back to the training I had in Christian school for when people make statements about the past

razeontherock · Jul 10, 2011

DontTreadOnMike said:
You're right. But most of the time, if you think I'm creating a strawman, I'm actually just reverting to the views and arguments that other Christians have actually presented to me

You are right. I need a better term to apply here than strawman. What happens is you take something that you yourself reject, and apply it to me. When I have found you are correct for having rejected it - and that Christianity is superior to the proven false position. (Wow that needs to be fleshed out with examples )

I try not to correct the false idea, because I know whatever I have learned is:

a) likely to bore you or otherwise not hold your interest;
b) not likely to be clearly communicated considering the subject material and difficulty involved with coming to understanding;
c) even if you could miraculously see my POV as I do, your own background and bias would mingle and therefore need an understanding at least slightly different than my own.

So spoon-feeding beliefs is just not on my agenda. (I don't see Christ doing that either)

DontTreadOnMike said:
in order to engage with one of you, I pretty much have to know what you think. If we were debating the doctrine of the rapture, it doesn't help me at all for you to say "well what does Jesus say about it?"

Discussion is not the same as debate. I think the rapture is a perfect example to discuss this phenomenon, and point out you know what I think better than you realize. While I doubt my first response would be verbatim "what does Jesus say about it," it is very much the direction I'd go if I were thinking clearly.

the fact is that on this topic, GREAT men of G-d have proven every position Scripturally. I'll go w/ my first Pastor's position: I want to be on the first truckload. Other than that the doctrine has no bearing.

createdtoworship · Jul 10, 2011

LOCO said:
Remember your audience, you are conversing with the OP who is an atheist so Bible verses probably mean little to him/her.

There is no need to try to convert or prove that his view is wrong.

For Christians the Truth stands alone, like an island. For others not so.

Hell is definitely the destination if one sins repeatedly and without repent. Hell should not be the reason for someone not to sin. We should avoid sinning because we want to keep the Commandments, do what is right, we want to obey God, honour our families, obey State laws etc.

I have a Baptist friend who converted because she read about Hell and it terrified her. What a peculiar reason to convert. You should convert because you love Jesus more than you fear Hell and/or the Holy Spirit has touched your heart.

Love will always conquer fear.

For every bad behaviour there should be consequences. Repeated bad behaviour gets more time in the sinbin, more timeout, expulsion or jailtime. It happens here on earth e.g. murderers are put to death in some countries.

For some people bad behaviour on earth earns time in front of two Judges. The earthly and heavenly Judge.

The ones who slip through on earth due to a technicality, they're famous, rich or just happened to get away with it. They will face the heavenly judge one day.

Many dislike or discount the doctrine of Hell because of several reasons:

a) Frankly, who would want to go there
b) They do not want to be held accountable for their actions or inaction
c) It is convenient to just live and hope that the majority of the world who do believe in a deity is wrong
d) If they are an atheist heaven/hell does not exist so it's not a issue
e) Many enjoy living unexamined lives

Hell from the Christian perspective is just permanent timeout.

'For many people who stop believing in God, its not that they believe in nothing, but that they believe in everything.' - GK Chesterton

well thats because your a christian , those who are not a christian Hell is a deterrent from sin. "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." james 5:20

DontTreadOnMike · Jul 10, 2011

gradyll said:
well thats because your a christian , those who are not a christian Hell is a deterrent from sin.

Trust me, it's really really not. Why would I be afraid of something that I don't think is real?

"Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." james 5:20

Hidden Runes shalt thou seek and interpreted signs,
many symbols of might and power,
by the great Singer painted, by the high Powers fashioned,
graved by the Utterer of gods.

-Havamal 141

Do those words mean anything to you? Of course not. Why? Because you don't believe Odin exists.

createdtoworship · Jul 10, 2011

DontTreadOnMike said:
Trust me, it's really really not. Why would I be afraid of something that I don't think is real?

Do those words mean anything to you? Of course not. Why? Because you don't believe Odin exists.

well Hell is created to be a deterrant just like prison. If you break the law of the united states you go to prison if you break the law of God you go to hell. Makes perfect sense. Odin doesn't make sense.

Romans 6:23

King James Version (KJV)

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

romans 5:8

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

LOCO · Jul 10, 2011

DontTreadOnMike said:
Thank you!

It's true that MOST people who accept evolution believe in a god. And MOST Christians accept evolution. I was actually going to make that point earlier but decided against it because, as I'm sure you know better than I do, many protestants don't consider catholics to be true Christians. I didn't know if that argument would have been dismissed out of hand so I didn't use it. But it's true.

There are Protestants who don't believe Catholics to be true Christians, I would not dismiss that argument outright....but they are an increasing minority. The World Council of Churches and other ecumenical and joint ventures have closed that gap considerably over the years.

LOCO · Jul 10, 2011

DontTreadOnMike said:
Haha

Well you're the one who loaded your statement with an assumption that Jesus existed and that Jesus said the things he was reported to have said in the Bible.

You're right. But most of the time, if you think I'm creating a strawman, I'm actually just reverting to the views and arguments that other Christians have actually presented to me because, like I said, I don't know what you believe on every subject and you won't tell me haha.

I know your objective is not for me to learn what you believe but Christians are so fractured on what the Bible says that in order to engage with one of you, I pretty much have to know what you think. If we were debating the doctrine of the rapture, it doesn't help me at all for you to say "well what does Jesus say about it?" You could hold the belief that the rapture happens before the tribulation, after the tribulation, or not at all. If you ask 3 Christians about what Jesus said on a specific topic you'll get 4 answers. So to have any point of reference for a discussion, I have to know what you believe or else every time I make an argument you'll just say, "Well that's not what I believe."

"Well then what do you believe?"

"I believe what ever Jesus said."

See what I'm saying?

Excuse me sir, but where you there?

Sorry! Sorry. I accidentally reverted back to the training I had in Christian school for when people make statements about the past

Secular and religious scholars have for a long time agreed that Jesus did exist. Roman and Jewish documents of the time held at the Vatican and various secular institutions discuss him and events that correspond with events written in the Bible. This is not an assumption or moot point.

The moot point for you is obviously was he God made flesh. You and razorback could go to town on that.

He was either our Lord or a lunatic. Christians do not believe that he was simply a great human teacher, Jesus did not leave that open to us, he was very clear.

I would urge you to read the Early Church Fathers and church history to find out why we believe what we do and the evidence that supports our claims. The Vatican website is also a good one wwwvatican.va

The differing interpretations that you hear from Christians is frustrating for all of us. Especially, for us Catholics we look to the inital split as significant, united we stand, divided we fall.

razeontherock · Jul 10, 2011

I just got done reading a thread where atheists point out that the minutiae that is disagreed on among scientists is nothing compared to the underpinnings they agree upon. Christianity is like that too; the bulk of everything is agreed upon, but the minor details under discussion are what is not agreed upon, which is why unbelievers focus on. And in the middle of this I have to ask, "razorback?"

LOCO · Jul 10, 2011

razeontherock said:
I just got done reading a thread where atheists point out that the minutiae that is disagreed on among scientists is nothing compared to the underpinnings they agree upon. Christianity is like that too; the bulk of everything is agreed upon, but the minor details under discussion are what is not agreed upon, which is why unbelievers focus on. And in the middle of this I have to ask, "razorback?"

Sorry typo.... I don't even know where I got that word from. I just looked it up on Google, its some kind of wild boar...please accept my apologies.

razeontherock · Jul 10, 2011

No problemo Sister - Peace! (Razorbacks are a mascot in Arkansas. Here in WI it's the Badger

LOCO · Jul 10, 2011

gradyll said:
those who are not a christian Hell is a deterrent from sin. 5:20

Not if you don't believe Hell exists.

DontTreadOnMike · Jul 11, 2011

gradyll said:
well Hell is created to be a deterrant just like prison. If you break the law of the united states you go to prison if you break the law of God you go to hell.

I don't believe you.

Makes perfect sense. Odin doesn't make sense.

The Biblical God is some great uncreated creator who for some reason cares what immensely about we do with our reproductive organs. He will send us to eternal torture for not acknowledging his existence and yet he is loving. He will send axe murders to heaven if they repent on death row and yet he is supposed to be just.

Odin is just a mortal man who is kept alive by magic apples.

Both are hard to believe but at least magic apples aren't self contradictory. They're even in the garden of eden

Romans 6:23

King James Version (KJV)

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

romans 5:8

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

"82.
Drink ale by the fire, but slide on the ice;
buy a steed when 'tis lanky, a sword when 'tis rusty;
feed thy horse neath a roof, and thy hound in the yard.

83.
The speech of a maiden should no man trust
nor the words which a woman says;
for their hearts were shaped on a whirling wheel
and falsehood fixed in their breasts."

-Havamal

DontTreadOnMike · Jul 11, 2011

LOCO said:
He was either our Lord or a lunatic. Christians do not believe that he was simply a great human teacher, Jesus did not leave that open to us, he was very clear.

Really? Those are the only two options? Maybe he was a liar? Maybe the people who wrote the Bible were liars and Jesus didn't really say what the Bible reports. Maybe he wasn't a liar but was just wrong (although I guess that would make him a lunatic)

razeontherock · Jul 11, 2011

Lying about the things Jesus claimed would also be lunatic territory, or at least that's the assumption in the quoted statement. A more accurate statement would be if His claims were false, He deserved the death He was sentenced to. (At least per local law)

DontTreadOnMike · Jul 11, 2011

razeontherock said:
Lying about the things Jesus claimed would also be lunatic territory, or at least that's the assumption in the quoted statement. A more accurate statement would be if His claims were false, He deserved the death He was sentenced to. (At least per local law)

Eesh! No one deserves that kind of punishment. Crazy Romans.

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