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"I just believe because I believe" is one of the worst reasons.
I beg to differ. There are a lot of really stupid people out there.One should realize that there are many things not disclosed by the person who said this.
No one is stupid.
I think faith is connection with God (1 Corinthians 6:17) so that we discover and believe in Him > He proves Himself to us, including by means of "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6) > how His love effects our nature > 1 John 4:17. He does all the good which we have not been able to do with ourselves. He has done better than we tried or even thought of.So why is it that God hides himself so cleverly? So much so that honestly nobody can really PROVE any doctrine because there is always a verse to debunk the theory.
"faith working through love" > how God effects me > grace includes how God effects our nature.Just say it: "i believe it all on faith alone".
By means of spiritual connection . . . of "faith working through love" . . . not only believing an idea or "truths".How does one "spiritually discern" something?
I'm experiencing better than what people have said the Bible means. The Bible shows me things people have not told me. And I know people personally, who are examples of this, and don't need to say anything. God gives us deeper connection better than human . . . of "faith working through love".All you can show me are demands written by men, claiming that they are passing on the words of gods!
Our Apostle Paul shares, how "we all" "were by nature children of wrath, just as the others" > no better than any one else. We all were made "from the same lump" > Romans 9:21As was explained to you earlier, more people believe in a god other than yours.
Are all those people "less wiser" (sic) than your lot, or just as deluded perhaps?
Well, reason did not bring me to "faith working through love", but now I can see the "theologic" of our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.Faith can be established by any reason, simple or complicated.
I don't mean to correct you, because you are right . . . that "things" contradict each other.Correct me if I'm wrong,
I think of the number of people who think they are marrying the one who they belong with, and who think it is a good idea to gamble, smoke, drink and drive . . . and think they are voting for the best candidate.you said:but you seem to think that everyone necessarily has justification for their beliefs because they believe. This is nonsense. A great many people believe a great many things with poor or invalid justification.
I think . . . oh-oh, I'm thinkingand you said:and Think about it - at least 2/3rds of the world's population is dead wrong when it comes to their religion. They may think they have valid justification, but they logically cannot all have it, because their beliefs contradict each others'.
I'm experiencing better than what people have said the Bible means. The Bible shows me things people have not told me.
And I know people personally, who are examples of this, and don't need to say anything.
God gives us deeper connection better than human . . . of "faith working through love".
Our Apostle Paul shares, how "we all" "were by nature children of wrath, just as the others" > no better than any one else. We all were made "from the same lump" > Romans 9:21
Well, reason did not bring me to "faith working through love", but now I can see the "theologic" of our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
I'll try, but satisfaction not guaranteedWould you care to answer my question? Every other theist has dodged it so far:
Hmm . . . I never thought of this, never mind have I ever been asked this or read this, before, Steve.Why do theists regard the hiddenness and lack of evidence of 'faith' so highly, when in all other walks of life we dismiss such behaviour as dishonest or disingenuous ?
I beg to differ. There are a lot of really stupid people out there.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think that everyone necessarily has justification for their beliefs because they believe. This is nonsense. A great many people believe a great many things with poor or invalid justification. Think about it - at least 2/3rds of the world's population is dead wrong when it comes to their religion. They may think they have valid justification, but they logically cannot all have it, because their beliefs contradict each others'.
By means of spiritual connection . . . of "faith working through love" . . . not only believing an idea or "truths".
that there is an idea that each group has different parts of the whole. So, not all people understand that "contradictions" mean somebody has to be wrong.
The justification may be poor, but to the person, it is the best he can figure out.
The magic is, a poor justification (logical or not) is all a person needs for a religious faith. It is no worse, or sometimes, even better, than some excellent justifications. That is the nature of religious faith. And it is one of the most precious nature of human being.
I'll try, but satisfaction not guaranteed
Hmm . . . I never thought of this, never mind have I ever been asked this or read this, before, Steve.
Why do Christians live by faith, without physical evidence, yet they require evidence for everyday matters like making sure a mechanic did the work on their car right, make sure the child did the dishes right, make sure the food they buy has an in-date label on it, and have medical people test if they are clear of certain problems . . . using practical evidence . . . yet they do not require such clear evidence about God?
Well . . . I would say we do not have practical evidence which can prove what is invisible and not physical; it's kind of like how you can't use dirt to prove there is air or water. God is not physical; so you can't use physical stuff to prove Him. But - - if we can use physical evidence, we do. But God is so more and better than physical things can prove and show; so physical evidence just can't do the job.
"But why don't you use logic?"
God is more and better than the "reach" of human logic. We humans have our own real character with our motives which can effect what we are able to consider to be logical.
"Then how do you know your character is making you reliable for knowing if there is God or not?"
Actually, I can fool my own self and not know it. So, yes this is an issue . . . alwaysBut the reason for doubt, then, is not God, but me!!
"So, then, if you know you are so unreliable . . . "
Including in my ability to make the right choice about who I belong with, among other things . . . I simply have experienced that God has done better with me than I or any human has done with me. And all He does with me is a match with how the Bible says God's grace effects us and our relating and our lives . . . always with much more correction needed. He has done so better than I have tried to do, and I experience Him who is so superior to me . . . very sweet and tender way way more than any human I have known.
"But drugs can have you feeling nice and sweet more than you ever have felt."
But God is personal, and caring, with no substance back-up needed. And He does not run out. Drugs don't personally guide me, and ones I have used could shut me down, not make me more and more real in loving any and all people. And His side effects include rest for my soul and gentle and quiet and sweet and pleasant joy not dependent on any substance or thinking or circumstance. "He is good, all by Himself." Yes
It is "like" how you can't prove there are elephants, just by what you can see and feel. You might feel the skin and see the form and actions, but the real elephant is deeper and still beyond comprehension; even with an elephant, your logic can become disproven, when more actual discoveries are made; like this, logic is not enough for dealing with God.
Ones, then, have not truly proven that elephants exist, since they don't even really know what an elephant is.
And God is so more complex and in the spiritual realm much more intricate than physical things are; "and He is personal, not only physical!" < and you "might" have discovered how a number of humans are not to be figured out, because we are beyond just physical predictable principles which might be figured out, and God is so moreso; so we can't use just words and physical observation to "define" Him. We can only say this thing or that, but we are indeed so limited.
He is more real and complicated than things He has created; and humans haven't come close to figuring out the human body, by means of logic and evidence. And God is so more.
But "like" with discovering an elephant . . . you can experience, but your experiencing is indeed limited to who and how you are. Some are more capable of experiencing elephants, than others are. And we need unselfish nature of His love, in order to "get somewhere" with Him.
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
Unfortunately, what you have largely provided here is a "what", rather than a "why", which is what my question sought.
If we utilised this spiritual, invisible, 'other world', personal approach to determining the guilt or innocence of the accused, to assess the capability of the student to enter university, to gauge appropriateness of surgery for the patient, to search for the perpetrator of the crime - we would not only be reviled and ridiculed, we might even find ourselves charged with a crime.
And yet, here are people like you, telling us that this approach is the appropriate one for managing our lives.
It isn't honest.
Right. So, what then? Should we simply accept that they believe things because of bad reasons, and not challenge them on it? In a world so interconnected, and which gives people so much power, this is a terrible idea. If I believe you are wrong about something, particularly something important to your life and how your form beliefs, I think it's important that we talk about it, because if I'm wrong, it's really important that I change my mind, and if you're wrong, the same is true.
To give an example from my own life: my dad is not very educated on medicine. He's a homeopath. If he gets cancer, I'm going to try really, really hard to convince him not to abandon conventional treatment, because it is very literally the life of someone I love on the line. These things matter. These things are really important.
No. It really, really is not better or equal. Believing true things is based on solid, valid justifications. Believing false things is based on poor, invalid justifications. And believing false things can be very harmful - to your health if you have faith that prayer can cure disease, to your finances if you have faith in the prosperity gospel, and to your surroundings if you believe that homosexuality is immoral and wrong.
Your argument is based on scientific knowledge/learning. It is something logic can be applied in 100%. However, in religion, any religion, it would be a case of different nature. A farmer who is faithful to God. Then there is NO logic/scientific reasoning which can convince him that he is wrong. Because reasoning is a wrong way to use in this case.
On a case at the other end, I believe in God. Then you can reason with all your capability with me in trying to talk me out of it. Because I can talk back with reasons.
With that much of difference, yet my faith and the farmer's faith are, in fact, the same in quality. It is possible that my faith is even weaker than a farmer's faith.
Wat
Hang on, just to clarify, are you saying that it's wrong to apply reasoning here? Or that it's just not going to help very much? Either way, I don't quite get the point.
Then the problem is faith. See, here's the thing. You have reasons. Why, then, do you need faith? What role does faith play in this equation?
I believe that there are people who do have personal communication with God, and so they get reliable input about things. God knows more than we do, plus He has control so He can personally guide us according to all the good He is bringing about. An example of this is how things went for Joseph > Genesis 37-50.it seems to me that people listen to or read something and decide to believe or not believe it based on whether it "sounds right" to them.
there is an idea that each group has different parts of the whole. So, not all people understand that "contradictions" mean somebody has to be wrong.
I did not mean that that idea is correct, but that there are people who claim to see things that way.I've heard this explanation before, and I'm sorry, but the qualities of the beings in question are massively different, implying different beings. And each being claims to be the only god. It doesn't work. You can't somehow make Islam and Christianity both be right. It just doesn't work, because there are direct contradictions within the religious doctrines.
I pray for God to guide me, and I do not expect anyone to accept that I do this right. Also, I know I'm still not perfect at making sure with God; so I pray for His correction > Hebrews 5:13-14, Hebrews 12:4-11. And even if I were to give "evidence" which were proof, in the Bible we see how people could have proof right in their faces but still they did not want Jesus. We see this, now . . . how ones do present evidence of things . . . physical and statistical evidence, but others still refuse it. So, I can't expect others to accept if I have communication with God and am doing His will. But I pray for however God will do good with each of us.Let's say I claim to have "spiritually discerned" that God thinks that homosexuality is perfectly hunky-dory, and you've "spiritually discerned" that God will let homosexuals burn in hell. How do I tell if I'm wrong? How do you tell if I'm right? How does a third-party observer determine whether one of us is right?
If I suppose I am in touch with God and I am not, this is dishonest. But if God does personally help me, it is stupid to depend on less.If we utilised this spiritual, invisible, 'other world', personal approach to determining the guilt or innocence of the accused, to assess the capability of the student to enter university, to gauge appropriateness of surgery for the patient, to search for the perpetrator of the crime - we would not only be reviled and ridiculed, we might even find ourselves charged with a crime.
And yet, here are people like you, telling us that this approach is the appropriate one for managing our lives.
It isn't honest.
I pray for God to guide me, and I do not expect anyone to accept that I do this right.
in the Bible we see how people could have proof right in their faces but still they did not want Jesus
There are things in the Bible which I go by, for testing myself. Basically, I trust God to be the Judge and do what He sees fit with me. And it's not like I figure out how to be right, but I do what He has me do . . . if and when I doOkay, so how do you tell that you are right? How do you know it's actually god guiding you, and not just self-delusion?
I don't know Matt personally, nor do I know how he really was while he thought he was a Christian. But I am satisfied the Bible says that we do not just at times get some revelation of what God wants. We are constantly seeking Him for His grace and correction and guiding "continually" (Isaiah 58:11), and how He personally rules each of us in His very own peace in our "hearts" > (Romans 5:5, Colossians 3:15).when Matt Dillahunty was a Christian, he was sure that God wanted him to join the ministry. He was convinced that he had received spiritual revelation from God. Then, as a result of learning more about the bible and its history, he lost his faith and became one of the major figureheads of the modern atheist movement.
Like I say, I don't only get revelations at times. I go by what God actually does with me, at each moment > I test by seeing what He does. I compare things in the Bible with how I am, what I am doing, how I am relating with people, and see if He is matching what He does in me, with what His word says. And He does better than what I would have thought His word means.So when God gives you such a revelation, how do you determine that it actually is god speaking, and not just your own subconscious, or your conscience, or simply self-delusion?
I have indeed been seeing how unrealistic people can be . . . smoking, killing their own unborn with whom they could learn real love, doing the Charlie Brown and Lucy football thing of supposing at each next election that they can control politicians, going through changes in moments . . . like maybe the Jews did when they did not see where Moses was. People can be fickle.I'm reminded of the exodus story. You remember, after God rained supernatural plagues down on the egyptians, parted the red seas, and fed them manna from heaven on their trek through the desert... And then their leader goes missing for a few days, and they're like, "Screw that, let's build a new god!" Does that sound even remotely realistic? Like, at all?
And it's not like I figure out how to be right
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