Why is Christ not dead / in Hell

Kaon said:

begin

Click to expand...

<Kaon>Your question assumes the bible canon is ALL of the Truth - and not simply a canonical collection that men have forged, and stipulated as divinely inspired.
The Most High God gave is a spirit of truth - not a canon. You have the ability and charge of dividing truth and judging every spirit - including bad ones.
It is a spiritual disservice to deny other humans the ability to judge for themselves because MEN are playing with information through exploitation of authority.
The New Covenant guarantees His Law is on our hearts. Canonical texts don't matter; the same Pharisee beast stystem is still in effect.<end>

end

Click to expand...

My question assumes that God is omnipotent and that He ensured that mankind had all the scriptures, truth etc. that was necessary for their eternal salvation. I don't believe that God would permit any necessary scripture/truth to be lost for centuries, leaving millions lost in the dark, only to be discovered 2000+ years later.

According to Scripture, most people never have the ability to judge for themselves.
Most people never even find Jesus, the narrow road to life.
Most people remain on the wide road to destruction, and refuse to repent of serving demons.
Most people never experience the "New Covenant"/ Eternal Life/ Salvation in Jesus.

Der Alter said:

<Kaon>Your question assumes the bible canon is ALL of the Truth - and not simply a canonical collection that men have forged, and stipulated as divinely inspired.
The Most High God gave is a spirit of truth - not a canon. You have the ability and charge of dividing truth and judging every spirit - including bad ones.
It is a spiritual disservice to deny other humans the ability to judge for themselves because MEN are playing with information through exploitation of authority.
The New Covenant guarantees His Law is on our hearts. Canonical texts don't matter; the same Pharisee beast stystem is still in effect.<end>
My question assumes that God is omnipotent and that He ensured that mankind had all the scriptures, truth etc. that was necessary for their eternal salvation. I don't believe that God would permit any necessary scripture/truth to be lost for centuries, leaving millions lost in the dark, only to be discovered 2000+ years later.

Click to expand...

yeshuaslavejeff said:

begin

Click to expand...

According to Scripture, most people never have the ability to judge for themselves.
Most people never even find Jesus, the narrow road to life.
Most people remain on the wide road to destruction, and refuse to repent of serving demons.
Most people never experience the "New Covenant"/ Eternal Life/ Salvation in Jesus.

end

Click to expand...

Not sure how this addresses my post which you quoted.

Der Alter said:

According to Scripture, most people never have the ability to judge for themselves.
Most people never even find Jesus, the narrow road to life.
Most people remain on the wide road to destruction, and refuse to repent of serving demons.
Most people never experience the "New Covenant"/ Eternal Life/ Salvation in Jesus.
Not sure how this addresses my post which you quoted.

Click to expand...

The formatting/ quote/ requote functions are 'different' now than they were - something changed on the site or on my computer settings and it's awkward.

However, I was quoting you and agreeing with you against the
other one who posted other things and which you quoted their post here repeated >>
"It is a spiritual disservice to deny other humans the ability to judge for themselves"

Der Alter said:

<Kaon>Your question assumes the bible canon is ALL of the Truth - and not simply a canonical collection that men have forged, and stipulated as divinely inspired.
The Most High God gave is a spirit of truth - not a canon. You have the ability and charge of dividing truth and judging every spirit - including bad ones.
It is a spiritual disservice to deny other humans the ability to judge for themselves because MEN are playing with information through exploitation of authority.
The New Covenant guarantees His Law is on our hearts. Canonical texts don't matter; the same Pharisee beast stystem is still in effect.<end>
My question assumes that God is omnipotent and that He ensured that mankind had all the scriptures, truth etc. that was necessary for their eternal salvation. I don't believe that God would permit any necessary scripture/truth to be lost for centuries, leaving millions lost in the dark, only to be discovered 2000+ years later.

Click to expand...

You don't believe that, yet He told us that He would allow a strong delusion so that people would believe a lie?

Sometimes He sends people to let others know what He wants. He has told you antichrists will change laws and times, lawlessness will abound, and His saints will continue to be persecuted. PAUL said that we would perish because of the SIMPLICITY that is Christ. John said to test EVERY spirit. Our Redeemer told us to be wise as serpents, and gentle as doves, because our enemy is seeking to devour anyone he can.

Do you think this excludes the ecumenical selection process of the powers that be that selected your text you believe is the complete word of God (the canon)?

The Redeemer is THE Word of God in its entirety, not a canon selected by humans who have history of silencing truth and whistle-blowing. The Most High God will absolutely let you be deceived if you ignore the plethora of signs and help from Him in exchange for the creature (created things.)

yeshuaslavejeff said:

The formatting/ quote/ requote functions are 'different' now than they were - something changed on the site or on my computer settings and it's awkward.

However, I was quoting you and agreeing with you against the
other one who posted other things and which you quoted their post here repeated >>
"It is a spiritual disservice to deny other humans the ability to judge for themselves"

Click to expand...

Some people may not have the ability to judge for themselves, and come to understand any part of the Word of God.

That doesn't mean humans should build a spiritual culture of dictating what texts are profitable for spiritual consumption for other humans; that is blind leading blind. Every human is responsible for the trajectory of his or her soul; s/he cannot use the excuse that the church misled them on Judgment Day.

It is a spiritual disservice to deny other humans the ability to judge for themselves by forcing a paradigm of acceptance through a beast system predicated on something tantamount to "fear of hell" via spiritual peer pressure. The Redeemer didn't promote any collection of text of man, and He didn't bar anyone from being ignorant of Him. He didn't force Himself upon us; why do we do it to each other? Because of the subtlety of the Beast system.

What the ecumenical powers that be have done over centuries is perpetuate a strong delusion that will damn many people. Canonicity is not the Word of God; The Living Word of God - The Son of Man/The Annointed One/The Redeemer/God with Us - is the Word of God.

I meant exactly what I said before.

Kaon said:

You don't believe that, yet He told us that He would allow a strong delusion so that people would believe a lie?

Click to expand...

First please do not presume to tell me what I believe. Anybody can make scripture prove almost anything they want it to by quoting bits and pieces out-of-context as you have done here. For example Psalm 14 and 53 say "There is no God."
.....Do you actually believe that God arbitrarily decided to send a delusion on some people for no reason whatsoever? Let's read your proof text in- context, shall we.
God will have a good reason for sending people a delusion.

Sometimes He sends people to let others know what He wants. He has told you antichrists will change laws and times, lawlessness will abound, and His saints will continue to be persecuted. PAUL said that we would perish because of the SIMPLICITY that is Christ. John said to test EVERY spirit. Our Redeemer told us to be wise as serpents, and gentle as doves, because our enemy is seeking to devour anyone he can. Do you think this excludes the ecumenical selection process of the powers that be that selected your text you believe is the complete word of God (the canon)?
The Redeemer is THE Word of God in its entirety, not a canon selected by humans who have history of silencing truth and whistle-blowing. The Most High God will absolutely let you be deceived if you ignore the plethora of signs and help from Him in exchange for the creature (created things.)

Click to expand...

That is correct God will punish those who ignore his words. None of this addresses my comment that the omnipotent God has provided that people have all the scripture they need for salvation.

Der Alter said:

First please do not presume to tell me what I believe. Anybody can make scripture prove almost anything they want it to by quoting bits and pieces out-of-context as you have done here. For example Psalm 14 and 53 say "There is no God."

Click to expand...

I didn't presume anything. You are the one who seems to have put faith in a canon alone, and not only the Word of God. You won't reconcile how the canon is simply a collection of text put together by carnal men. You cannot identify how the Most High God has already put the law on our hearts, and so we do not need a canon or any text. You also seem to ignore that the canon is not the Word of God; the Living Word of God is the Word of God.

You also seem to ignore the ecumenical powers that be, the history and politics of the Church that has evolved to this point in canonicity.

.....Do you actually believe that God arbitrarily decided to send a delusion on some people for no reason whatsoever? Let's read your proof text in- context, shall we.

Click to expand...

I didn't say for no reason at all; I specifically said that

The Most High God will absolutely let you be deceived if you ignore the plethora of signs and help from Him in exchange for the creature (created things.)

If you trust a canon made by men, and the words of men, over the Most High God or Word of God, then you are deluded. The warnings are layered throughout the canon alone. It is the pharisee order all over again - to follow the groove of the Church and ecumenism as it were. Those are not the same as "following Christ". He also warned about this.

We scoff, kill prophets, and express hauteur in the creature without considering the Creator. Of course we are lost, and of course the Most High God will deliver most of us into delusion. Did you miss where even those who say they were workers of Christ would be judged as rejected? This is not a joke; putting your faith in a canon instead of the Holy Spirit and Truth which guides you will put you in danger.


The canon is not the Word of God; it is a collection of texts given divine inspiration status by other men.

God will have a good reason for sending people a delusion.

Click to expand...

And, you don't think God's reason for this is because we have refused the warning of people He has sent over centuries? You have to ignore history to truly believe we are not worthy of a delusion, when the Church history alone contains blood. I am not going into an anthropological, sociological, theological, and historical odyssey to explain why it all leads to a canon made by men deceiving men, but I will say you believe whatever you want to believe. You are an adult, and you are responsible for the trajectory of your own spirit.

That is correct God will punish those who ignore his words. None of this addresses my comment that the omnipotent God has provided that people have all the scripture they need for salvation.

Click to expand...

The first part of your statement is absolutely correct: The Most High God is omnipotent. However, one would have to be a fool to believe that the magnificence and density of the Most High God is contained in human-made artifacts (a canon).

The reason why you and I have a problem is not because of the Most High God, it is because you believe the Word of God is contained in a canonical text made by men. I categorically call that flawed - as the Living Word of God is the Son of Man/The Redeemer. Men are the ones who chose which texts were important for other men and their spirit. That should be infuriating, but it seems more people lean on Church than God.

The canon is not the entirety of the Word of God, and it is important for people to realize it is a compilation of books put together by men who are dictating what books are considered holy for other men. God warned about this multiple times over.

This is why I said the strong delusion is about 1) people believing the canon is the literal Word of God, and 2) people believing we do not have to follow the commandments of the Most High God anymore.

By "literal word of God," I mean the Redeemer/"Christ". The canon still may be inspired, but I wouldn't know because it was chosen for me by other men. However, The Most High God speaks to all of us in our own unique way we can recognize - and He also instructs us on what is right and wrong.


Do not debase yourselves, or your Father, by asserting you need a collection of books compiled by carnal men in order to know the Most High God. He promised by the New Covenant that He would write His law and statutes on our heart so that no one would have to ask their neighbor if they know the Truth.

Our Father can instruct us better than any book if we believe that is possible. He is our Father. But, you have to believe He is better than a canon, and that He will lead you to the truth. There has to be a reception to truth, not status quo.


I don't want any lurkers to think I am saying throw away the canon; what I am saying is the foundation of your faith should be a relationship between The Most High God, and you - not a canonical text made by Men.



Some of you on these forums alone have the fire of prophets coming out of your mouths. Most humans utterly debase their value; if humans truly knew what they were, they wouldn't be so trusting of other men.

Kaon said:

I didn't presume anything. You are the one who seems to have put faith in a canon alone, and not only the Word of God. You won't reconcile how the canon is simply a collection of text put together by carnal men. You cannot identify how the Most High God has already put the law on our hearts, and so we do not need a canon or any text. You also seem to ignore that the canon is not the Word of God; the Living Word of God is the Word of God.
You also seem to ignore the ecumenical powers that be, the history and politics of the Church that has evolved to this point in cannonicity.



I didn't say for no reason at all; I specifically said that

The Most High God will absolutely let you be deceived if you ignore the plethora of signs and help from Him in exchange for the creature (created things.)

If you trust a canon made by men, and the words of men, over the Most High God or Word of God, then you are deluded. The warnings are layered throughout the canon alone. It is the pharisee order all over again - to follow the groove of the Church and ecumenism as it were. Those are not the same as "following Christ". He also warned about this.
We scoff, kill prophets, and express hauteur in the creature without considering the Creator. Of course we are lost, and of course the Most High God will deliver most of us into delusion. Did you miss where even those who say they were workers of Christ would be judged as rejected? This is not a joke, and putting your faith in a canon instead of the Holy Spirit which guides you, and the Truth will put you in danger.
The canon is not the Word of God; it is a collection of texts given divine inspiration status by other men.
And, you don't think God's reason for this is because we have refused the warning of people He has send over centuries? You have to ignore history to truly believe we are not worth of a delusion, when the Church history alone contains blood. I am not going into an anthropological, sociological, theological, and historical odyssey to explain why it all leads to a canon made by men deceiving men, but I will say you believe whatever you want to believe. You are an adult, and you are responsible for the trajectory of your own spirit.
The first part of your statement is absolutely correct: The Most High God is omnipotent. However, one would have to be a fool to believe that the magnificence and density of the Most High God is contained in human-made artifacts (a canon).
The reason why you and I have a problem is not because of the Most High God, it is because you believe the Word of God is contained in a canonical text made by men. I categorically call that flawed - as men are the ones who chose which texts were important for other men and their spirit. That should be infuriating, but it seems more people lean on Church than God.
The canon is not the entirety of the Word of God, and it is important for people to realize it is a compilation of books put together by men who are dictating what books are considered holy for other men. God warned about this multiple times over.

Click to expand...

This is why I said the strong delusion is about 1) people believing the canon is the literal Word of God, and 2) people believing we do not have to follow the commandment I beleive that GHod s of the Most High God anymore.

Click to expand...

This last comment is nonsense.
You most certainly did presume to tell me what I trust because I said absolutely nothing which could be reasonably interpreted as trusting something put together by men. Here is my statement again.
What part of that do you not understand?

Der Alter said:

This last comment is nonsense.

Click to expand...

In your opinion, I understand.

You most certainly did presume to tell me what I trust because I said absolutely nothing which could be reasonably interpreted as trusting something put together by men.

Click to expand...

Of course you did: you cannot connect that the canonical collection know as the Bible is a collection of text by men.

You have demonstrated that you believe that the Word of God is contained in the canonical text, and not necessarily that it is The Living Word of God who died for the remission of sins. In other words, you believe the canon is the end all be all for instruction and divine inspiration. Correct me if you think the Word of God is beyond the canon.

You also seen to think the Most High God wouldn't send delusion on people when He has said so.

Here is my statement again.

Click to expand...

God is omnipotent, that means all powerful. God inspired the prophets and disciples to record His word. I don't believe that God inspired the scriptures then did not ensure that people had all the scriptures necessary for their salvation.​

What part of that do you not understand?

Click to expand...

I understand all of it; it still supports what I said before - everything I said.

Everything I said before: I meant exactly what I said.

Kaon said:

. . .Of course you did: you cannot connect that the canonical collection know as the Bible is a collection of text by men. . . .

Click to expand...

This is the self inflicted wound of your entire argument. This contradicts God's own word and assumes that God inspired the prophets and disciples to write down His word then turned His back on the world and let fallible men put anything they wanted to in the canon.
I believe what God said in Is 55:11 and that God did not let mankind stumble around in darkness for 2000 years +/- until Kaon or someone found the "true truth." Unfortunately there are groups of people around making the same claim; JW, LDS, WWCG, UU, OP, UPCI, INC etc. All claiming they alone have the "true truth" and everyone else is wrong. If you want to convince me of anything you will have to provide more than opinion and I don't mean some anonymous scrolls buried in the sand somewhere in the desert.

Der Alter said:

This is the self inflicted wound of your entire argument. This contradicts God's own word and assumes that God inspired the prophets and disciples to write down His word then turned His back on the world and let fallible men put anything they wanted to in the canon.

Isaiah 55:11
(11) so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.​

I believe what God said in Is 55:11 and that God did not let mankind stumble around in darkness for 2000 years +/- until Kaon or someone found the "true truth." Unfortunately there are groups of people around making the same claim; JW, LDS, WWCG, UU, OP, UPCI, INC etc. All claiming they alone have the "true truth" and everyone else is wrong. If you want to convince me of anything you will have to provide more than opinion and I don't mean some anonymous scrolls buried in the sand somewhere in the desert.

Click to expand...

So I am a cult?

I simply critiqued the belief that a canon is the entirety of the Word of God.

I also stated that no man should have the authority to dictate what texts or words are important for other men, because every man is responsible for the trajectory of his or her own soul. You say the canon is THE Word of God; I categorically say that is wrong: that the Word of God is Living, and cannot be contained in texts chosen for men for spiritual consumption by ecumenical powers that be.

I honestly don't care what you think of me, but I am just speaking matter-of-factly; the historical implications of a canon should be alarming alone. But, if you want to be ruled by the arbitration of other men, then follow them. That is your choice as a sovereign spiritual entity.

As I said before, I am not dismissing the canon, rather, I am putting in context what a canon is, and why such incredulity against historically inclusive text considered non-canonical (and everything around, and in between) is actually damaging to the sovereign human soul charged with the responsibility of discerning the truth and developing a relationship with the Most High God. Who has more authority: Paul or any human, an angel or archon, or the Most High God?

I see what Inkfingers is getting at and I'm not sure I can answer it either. But I'll give it a go.

From our point of view, if we die whilst in a unsaved state then our punishment, according to the Bible is Hell. (Some people may have different ideas of hell but universally it's accepted that this is a place that is very unpleasant and separate to God). Therefore then, Jesus who himself lived a perfect life, when he took on our sin, he was as good as at point of death dying in an unsaved state. Therefore, as we would expect for ourselves, he should also be in a place of separation from God forevermore. But obviously, he isn't and can't be as he IS God. Therefore, he either has not paid the same price that we would have to pay (NOT to say the price isn't paid, but he's not paid it the same way we'd have to pay it if it was us on that cross), or he has, but then that's why the OP is at this dilemma.

I was taught a simplistic view of the works of the cross whereby God is the judge and we are the criminal. Lets say for arguments sake our debt in monetary terms was 10,000 and we could never afford to pay it, God cannot just let us walk free as he's just and righteous, so he charges us the full sentence even though it hurts him (as he loves us). But then after the sentencing, he steps down from the stand and takes the debt and writes a cheque to pay it off for us. (This is the work that Jesus done on the cross), so whilst we were penalised for it, it's then paid off also in the next action). I admit however, whilst this is my understanding of the cross (and I still accept it without question) but it still doesn't explain how then Jesus is no longer in hell. I guess the goal posts were moved at some point is the only other explanation.

Regardless though, this is not something that would affect my salvation or my belief in God and I'd still accept gladly Christs work on the cross as my full payment for my sins - even if I don't fully understand how it all worked! Somethings we will never know.

2 Peter 1:21 (KJV) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Proverbs 30:5-6 (KJV)
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Isaiah 40:8 (KJV) The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Isaiah 55:11 (KJV) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Jeremiah 23:29-30 (KJV)
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
John 17:17 (KJV) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Ephesians 6:17 (KJV) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Hebrews 4:12 (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

How do we know God's word? Since we weren't there at the time it occurred and was written, we have to rely on the Bible. Where does the Holy Spirit come in? He leads us and guides us into all truth and the Bible is the Word of truth.
John 16:13 (KJV) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
It's the Holy Spirit who helps us interpret God's word but we must study it, otherwise why would God have given us 2 Timothy 2:15?
I have to believe that what we have in the Canon is exactly what God wanted us to have. Yet, we don't need any man to explain it to us. Furthermore,
Revelation 22:18-19 (KJV)
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I know the above is specific to the Book of Revelation but I believe this holds true to sacred scripture in general and with this kind of warning, I do not believe that too many are going to mess with scripture (see Prov.. 30:6) and even if they did attempt to, God would prevent them from succeeding, He's too powerful for man to destroy His works. If God is too weak to prevent men from corrupting His word, then it's pretty much hopeless. It's not just the word, but a combination of the word and the Holy Spirit which gives us the discernment we need to understand what it is that God is telling us.

During the time of Josiah, the Bible had been lost and found in temple by one of the priests and given to the King who then changed everything based on it. So Satan has tried to destroy (or discredit it) but has been unsuccessful as God is too powerful and has made sure that His followers have access to it, in spite of scholars who may claim it's invalid.

Spiritualized said:

I see what Inkfingers is getting at and I'm not sure I can answer it either. But I'll give it a go.

From our point of view, if we die whilst in a unsaved state then our punishment, according to the Bible is Hell. (Some people may have different ideas of hell but universally it's accepted that this is a place that is very unpleasant and separate to God). Therefore then, Jesus who himself lived a perfect life, when he took on our sin, he was as good as at point of death dying in an unsaved state. Therefore, as we would expect for ourselves, he should also be in a place of separation from God forevermore. But obviously, he isn't and can't be as he IS God. Therefore, he either has not paid the same price that we would have to pay (NOT to say the price isn't paid, but he's not paid it the same way we'd have to pay it if it was us on that cross), or he has, but then that's why the OP is at this dilemma.

I was taught a simplistic view of the works of the cross whereby God is the judge and we are the criminal. Lets say for arguments sake our debt in monetary terms was 10,000 and we could never afford to pay it, God cannot just let us walk free as he's just and righteous, so he charges us the full sentence even though it hurts him (as he loves us). But then after the sentencing, he steps down from the stand and takes the debt and writes a cheque to pay it off for us. (This is the work that Jesus done on the cross), so whilst we were penalised for it, it's then paid off also in the next action). I admit however, whilst this is my understanding of the cross (and I still accept it without question) but it still doesn't explain how then Jesus is no longer in hell. I guess the goal posts were moved at some point is the only other explanation.

Regardless though, this is not something that would affect my salvation or my belief in God and I'd still accept gladly Christs work on the cross as my full payment for my sins - even if I don't fully understand how it all worked! Somethings we will never know.

Click to expand...

While I see what you are saying I also say that we sometimes accept such a simplistic view because the lives around us make our lives so nice and easy. But consider this. Jesus will cast Satan into the lake of fire for eternity, AND those angels that followed him from heaven in revolt against God, therein we see that there is a limit to His offer of redemption. So what about the man or woman who thrives in the witches brew? Who desires to hurt people for fun? What about those who saw God in Jesus, who reached out and took his hand and fake repentance and only did it to jerk him closer so he could slap Him in the face for no other reason than because He is God? Those who not only deny His authority in heaven, but who worship Satan? I have seen these people and while I know there is no end to Gods love I believe there is a limit to His patience. Do these people get a pass in the after life?

Inkfingers said:

Okay, this is one that vexes me.

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the full price of sin, why then is Jesus not either:

1) eternally dead

2) waiting to go into the lake of fire for all eternity

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (as I said, depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the FULL price of sin, he should then be in one of those two conditions.



The only reason I can think that he would not be in one of those conditions is if:

a) he did not pay the full price of sin but was let off part of the bill (cue track playing opening chords of O Fortuna)

b) The Father chooses to end the sentence of sin prematurely (which opens the gates to a potential universalism as regards salvation - ie: all end up being saved in the end)

It CANNOT be that Jesus gets a reduced sentence on account of being sinless, as that would mean he does not pay the FULL price of sin.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

According to the following site:

"Jesus’ death was an infinite death, paying our infinite sin debt so that we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21)."

https://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html

"Hell is perhaps a primary reason why God sent Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. Being “extinguished” after death is no fate to dread, but an eternity in hell most definitely is. Jesus’ death was an infinite death, paying our infinite sin debt so that we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21). When we place our faith in Him, we are saved, forgiven, cleansed, and promised an eternal home in heaven. But if we reject God’s gift of eternal life, we will face the eternal consequences of that decision."

https://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Inkfingers said:

Okay, this is one that vexes me.

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the full price of sin, why then is Jesus not either:

1) eternally dead

2) waiting to go into the lake of fire for all eternity

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (as I said, depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the FULL price of sin, he should then be in one of those two conditions.



The only reason I can think that he would not be in one of those conditions is if:

a) he did not pay the full price of sin but was let off part of the bill (cue track playing opening chords of O Fortuna)

b) The Father chooses to end the sentence of sin prematurely (which opens the gates to a potential universalism as regards salvation - ie: all end up being saved in the end)

It CANNOT be that Jesus gets a reduced sentence on account of being sinless, as that would mean he does not pay the FULL price of sin.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

The full price of sin is neither eternal death, nor eternal suffering in the life of fire, it is the shedding of blood, which is why the shedding of blood atones for sin, because it pays for the full price of sin,

for the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood which maketh atonement for the soul. (Leviticus 17:11 [MODIFIED-YLT])

When Christ shed his blood, he paid the full price of sin, hence why there is subsequent forgiveness of sins unto those he shed his blood for,

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace (Ephesians 1:7 [NIV])

The length of time of his death does not relate to the price of sin, but rather, fulfillment of the Law of God, for just as Christ was slain on the Passover, he was raised three days and three nights later on First Fruits.