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Eyes wide Open

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which brings us back to the first part of my post, i know of no culture that is totally devoid of religious influence.

Yes and maybe that's the problem. The human mind is capable of conjuring up all sorts of 'God says' situations, coming from the mouths of any number of mentally deranged individuals, with any number of willing people to follow a forceful or alluring message, normally with personal gain at the forefront of any following. If we remove religion we remove the 'God says' and then we are left with just an observation of the human mind and its potential fragility, and the ability to fix problems, and not give all the issues and potential fixes over to abstract entities.
 
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Ana the Ist

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It's not so much about pushing them into anti theism. Again, I'm not the least bit against those who simply say, "I think there's a god out there somewhere" and leave it at that.
 
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dms1972

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Let's say heliocentrism for example.

Ok well thats going back several centuries. Its generally accepted unless you can say who currently doesn't accept the copernican model? Copernicus was a religious man by today's standards, It seems to me very unlikely he would have been against religion. There was only mild controversy at the time. It a while since I read about it, seems to have been one particular pope sixty years later put up resistance to some of his ideas, as Gallieo picked them up. Would need to read about it all again.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Almost that whole post was propagantastic!

I left all the parts I disagree with. I'd try to refute them but you didn't include any facts for me to refute.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Ok well thats going back several centuries. Who disagrees with this currently?

Maybe you missed my point when I said it the first time...

It's not that the religious won't eventually "get there" it's that we have to drag them kicking and screaming the whole way. It's a drag on advancement...at the same time, it contributes nothing towards advancement.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Ok well thats going back several centuries. Its generally accepted unless you can say who currently doesn't accept the copernican model? Copernicus was a religious man by the way.

Well consider his options...didn't they throw him in jail for pointing out the facts? What do you think they would've done if he said he was an atheist?

What does the fact that it's an older example have to do with my point? You wanted an example that proves it....that's a pretty good example. It's not as if he showed up with this model of heliocentrism and the religious said, "well...we're concerned with the truth, so let's hear what you've got to say...."
 
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dms1972

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It's not so much about pushing them into anti theism. Again, I'm not the least bit against those who simply say, "I think there's a god out there somewhere" and leave it at that.

Well thats not going to be christians.
 
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dms1972

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Well consider his options...didn't they throw him in jail for pointing out the facts? What do you think they would've done if he said he was an atheist?

Its not just an older example, you seem to be mixing up Copernicus and Galileo.
 
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Ana the Ist

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No what I meant was christians have a more personal relationship with God, they believe for instance God came to earth in Jesus, they believe the Trinity.

Lol...ok...

I get the feeling that you had a point to saying this and I missed it entirely.
 
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dms1972

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In the case of Copernicus, that seems to be not far off what happened.

I am having to research it again.

Copernicus was hesitant to publish his theories, because they were new, he didn't want to risk scorn, probably both from some theologians and some of the Peripatetic school of philosophy who followed the ideas of Aristotle. Eventually Johann Albrecht Widmannstetter, made some of Copernicus's ideas known in lectures. Pope clement VII, and some of his cardinals, and archbishops heard these lectures and one wrote to Copernicus:

"Some years ago word reached me concerning your proficiency, of which everybody constantly spoke. At that time I began to have a very high regard for you... For I had learned that you had not merely mastered the discoveries of the ancient astronomers uncommonly well but had also formulated a new cosmology. In it you maintain that the earth moves; that the sun occupies the lowest, and thus the central, place in the universe... Therefore with the utmost earnestness I entreat you, most learned sir, unless I inconvenience you, to communicate this discovery of yours to scholars, and at the earliest possible moment to send me your writings on the sphere of the universe together with the tables and whatever else you have that is relevant to this subject ..."

What is that if not encouraging science?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_Copernicus#Heliocentrism

My point in all this is about confusing religion with particular personalities, the same can be said of atheism no doubt and we are back to your first post.

Im tired. I've argued already atheists can be non-believing in God and believing in other things. I don't argue anymore (and haven't for over twenty years) along the lines of you must believe in God, or believe in nothing.

I guess I should not have responded at all.
 
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bhsmte

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Your only problem is, violent crime has been dropping the world over for a while now.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Your only problem is, violent crime has been dropping the world over for a while now.


That...and stuff like the fact that we aren't burning people at the stake anymore. That was rather cruel.

Frankly though, I don't think he meant for the comment to be examined in any critical way.
 
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asherahSamaria

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what does it presuppose?
it's vanity to suppose that humans are the most intelligent "things" in the universe
- You said - humans had a puny mind. In comparison to what? Your idea of a god? That's bringing pre-suppositionalism. I never said that humans were the most intelligent things in the universe either. Please do not misrepresent what I wrote.

the reality is, science has no clue whatsoever about how life came to be - and an argument from ignorance is impressive how? And when you say "no clue" - just how accurate is that?

would you say you are more than what physical laws can account for - which physical laws exactly? Is this back to explaining consciousnesses again?
 
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