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If I ever see evidence of anyone worshipping their Christmas tree, I will be the first one to call them out. The likelihood of me coming across any such thing, however, is pretty much zero.Tree worship goes back to Old Testament times. There are a few scholarly articles on the topic for those who like to investigate things. Meaning, Jeremiah 10 could be used to condemn this practice along with the many verses about groves (trees).
The article quoted by BH is written by a group of editors, none of whom appear to be historiansI cry foul! Can you provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support these false claims? I don't mean an anonymous website.
Yes. I was already aware of Germany. But many Americans did not celebrate Christmas in the 1840s because they thought it was pagan. In short, can you say things have gotten better in the church or worse?Why, precisely, "most Americans" should be considered correct on this is unclear... but let's take a look at the source. You don't cite a source for this, but it appears to be from here:
History of Christmas Trees - Symbolism, Traditions & Trivia | HISTORY
The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues wi...www.history.com
Okay, so let's take a look at that article's claims. It claims at the start that "The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s." This is not exactly false, but highly misleading. If you look in the article, it refers to how (although without giving citations) how some pagans took plants into their homes. The problem is that the examples it cites are extremely old, with most from the centuries BC, and the latest being in the early centuries AD.
Then suddenly it cuts to the 16th century:
"Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes. Some built Christmas pyramids of wood and decorated them with evergreens and candles if wood was scarce. It is a widely held belief that Martin Luther, the 16th-century Protestant reformer, first added lighted candles to a tree. Walking toward his home one winter evening, composing a sermon, he was awed by the brilliance of stars twinkling amidst evergreens. To recapture the scene for his family, he erected a tree in the main room and wired its branches with lighted candles."
Notice that we suddenly have a 1000+ year gap between the pagan practices of bringing in trees and Christians doing it. It is extraordinarily unlikely that the German Christians in the 16th century were pouring over books about ancient pagan practices and thought "man, those pagans way back when sure had some cool ideas, let's start doing them!" So while one could say that "the history of Christmas trees goes back" to what pagans did long ago, it would only be in the sense that they happened to do some things that were a bit similar, not that there was any actual influence. Hence the article description is rather misleading.
Incidentally, I want to make a further comment on the claim that "as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.” But it does not seem like any of them drew any connection between it and Jeremiah 10... at least, none that I can find. As I noted earlier, I've been unable to find--even in works by people claiming that Christmas trees come from paganism--anyone trying to claim Jeremiah 10 refers to Christmas trees prior to the 20th century. Alexander Hislop's pseudohistorical 19th-century work "The Two Babylons", which is the source for a number of anti-Christmas talking points, doesn't connect Christmas trees to Jeremiah 10 despite spending several pages pages trying to claim they come from paganism.
The first person I have been able to find claim Jeremiah 10 refers to Christmas trees is John Quincy Adams (no apparent relation to the President), who in 1924 published "His Apocalypse", which claimed Jeremiah 10 referred to Christmas trees (it also claimed that the Book of Revelation declared the world was going to end in 1930, so it is perhaps not a source one should trust for proper exposition of the Bible). The person who seems to have popularized the Jeremiah 10 claim was Herbert Armstrong, a binitarian radio preacher who founded the Worldwide Church of God and, among other odd ideas, claimed the British were descendants of the Israelites. So not only does the idea that Jeremiah 10 had anything to do with Christmas trees not show up until the 20th century, the people it came from appear to have had a bunch of questionable (in the case of Armstrong, downright heretical) ideas.
Idolatry has a two part instruction in Exodus 20.If I ever see evidence of anyone worshipping their Christmas tree, I will be the first one to call them out. The likelihood of me coming across any such thing, however, is pretty much zero.
Tree worship goes back to Old Testament times. There are a few scholarly articles on the topic for those who like to investigate things. Meaning, Jeremiah 10 could be used to condemn this practice along with the many verses about groves (trees).
Actually, the article you quoted (and didn't bother linking to), says it was the puritans who rejected Christmas trees, and indeed any kind of festive spirit such as singing Christmas carols and putting up any decorations.
The Bible has homonyms within it.A grove is a multitude of trees. You cannot use the word grove to refer to an individual tree. It is directly contradictory.
I am no fan of Calvinism, either. I only find a common ground with them with some of them on the Bible issue or when it comes to Cessationism. But yeah, I disagree with all five points and I don’t like some of their history. My point is that more Americans were Bible believers that stuck by many traditional teachings of God’s Word. While not all Christians were perfect back then, things are a lot worse now. We are now in the laodicean age.Indeed, and the Puritans were hypocrites who burned innocent women at the state based on people having dreams that they were witches, and then a hundred years later decided they were sick of the whole Christian thing and became Unitarian. Given my close connections to Congregationalism I have a particular dislike for Puritanism and I find it ironic that the first Puritan congregations in America, including the first congregation in Boston and also our oldest surviving church building, the Old Ship Church in Rhode Island, all became Unitarian.
Fortunately there were Congregationalists who moved in a more orthodox manner, embraced Christmas, and today consist of churches like the Park Street Church in Boston, which is one of the best traditional Protestant churches left in a large city in the United States in terms of their worship practices, doctrine, and so on. They could easily have wound up under the control of the ultra liberal United Church of Christ or under the control of some radical Calvinist group like 9Marks, but instead are just a normal church; indeed had the Protestant church I had grown up in stayed the way Park Street Church currently is, I would not have left, but then I would have missed out on the beauty of Eastern Orthodoxy, but still I resent having been denied access by a progression of liberal and anti-traditional evangelical fundamentalist clergy to the beautiful liturgical worship in which I initially was raised. Thus part of the appeal of our Orthodox tradition for me is how resistant the Orthodox church is to destructive changes to the liturgy and also the extent to which priests are obliged to follow the rules when it comes to the worship services of the church, rather than making up their own thing.
There is nothing new under the sun. Tree worship happened in the Old Testament. The Scriptures talk about the forbidding of groves (trees that they would worship). Exodus 20 condemns not only just bowing down to idols but just making one.
Lies are promoted on Christmas. They say there were three kings or wisemen who visited Jesus while He was a baby in a manger. But it was actually the shepherds who seen Jesus as a baby. The wisemen were not kings and there was no exact number of them given. The wisemen visited Jesus when He was a child in a house.
Another lie is they say Jesus is born on December 25th. This is the most unlikely time of the Incarnation of Christ. It would be too cold for shepherds to be tending their sheep at night during this time.
Christmas is a holiday celebrated by some atheists, agnostics, psychics, religionists (non-Christians), etcetera. It’s a national holiday. All united on one day.
Giving gifts primarily to those who love you was a practice condemned by Jesus. What fellowship does light have with darkness?
BTW ~ I am also not into Armstrongism.
Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that the pagans worshipped the trees in the groves they planted. That is something you have made up in order to support your agenda.There is nothing new under the sun. Tree worship happened in the Old Testament. The Scriptures talk about the forbidding of groves (trees that they would worship). Exodus 20 condemns not only just bowing down to idols but just making one.
Jesus was still an infant when the wise men came to see himLies are promoted on Christmas. They say there were three kings or wisemen who visited Jesus while He was a baby in a manger. But it was actually the shepherds who seen Jesus as a baby.
Their names were Gaspar, Melchior, and Balthasar. They weren't recorded in Scripture but their names have been passed down in the Church. Nativity scenes pack a number of historical events over a period of months into a single picture. The focus of all is Christ.The wisemen were not kings and there was no exact number of them given. The wisemen visited Jesus when He was a child in a house.
You are an expert on sheep herding now are you?Another lie is they say Jesus is born on December 25th. This is the most unlikely time of the Incarnation of Christ. It would be too cold for shepherds to to tending their sheep at night during this time.
Christians are celebrating the Nativity of Christ. What non-christians do on this day is their business. There is no fellowship of light with darkness.Christmas is a holiday celebrated by some atheists, agnostics, psychics, religionists (non-Christians), etcetera. It’s a national holiday. All united on one day. Giving gifts primarily to those who love you was a practice condemned by Jesus. What fellowship does light have with darkness?
You are guilty by association.BTW ~ I am also not into Armstrongism.
The Puritans, but I haven't seen evidence that they thought it was pagan, rather they were against any kind of festivity. They still celebrated Christmas though, so that's another strike against you.Yes. I was already aware of Germany. But many Americans did not celebrate Christmas in the 1840s because they thought it was pagan.
Your complaint focuses on what people outside the Church do, which has nothing to do with how things are in the Church.In short, can you say things have gotten better in the church or worse?
Trees are trees. They are not idols.Idolatry has a two part instruction in Exodus 20.
Part 1. Don’t make the idol, meaning, you are not to possess it.
Never seen anyone bow down to a tree.Part 2. Don’t bow down to it.
There isn't even a remote chance that trees were ever used as idols. This is simply something you have imagined.It’s the first part instruction that is the problem. I mean even there was a remote chance it could be read that trees that are decorated was in view of idols, would not the safer play be to avoid them instead of taking the risk in being wrong?
In your febrile imagination.Then there are all the other problems, as well.
A "pagan symbol" doesn't mean it is an idol, nor that anyone worships it.To all:
“Most 19th-century Americans found Christmas trees an oddity. The first record of one being on display was in the 1830s by the German settlers of Pennsylvania, although trees had been a tradition in many German homes much earlier. The Pennsylvania German settlements had community trees as early as 1747. But, as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.”
In other words; "here's a statement. I'm not going to prove it; do your own research if you are so inclined."Tree worship goes back to Old Testament times. There are a few scholarly articles on the topic for those who like to investigate things.
When someone accuses me, or several of us, of twisting Scriptures it means they are losing the argument and have to resort to insults.Of course, those who have a motivation in celebrating Christmas are not going to see such things of course. They will take any such evidence and either ignore it or twist it.
You have zero biblical grounds for using a computer.You have zero biblical grounds to celebrate Jesus’ birth.
A "pagan symbol" doesn't mean it is an idol, nor that anyone worships it.
Other nations MAY have worshipped trees; that does not mean that God's people did, nor that God was happy for anyone to do so.There is nothing new under the sun. Tree worship happened in the Old Testament.
Trees are not idols in themselves.The Scriptures talk about the forbidding of groves (trees that they would worship).
A tree is an idol in no one's mind except yours.Exodus 20 condemns not only just bowing down to idols but just making one.
Which is why churches celebrate Epiphany on Jan 6th.Lies are promoted on Christmas. They say there were three kings or wisemen who visited Jesus while He was a baby in a manger. But it was actually the shepherds who seen Jesus as a baby. The wisemen were not kings and there was no exact number of them given. The wisemen visited Jesus when He was a child in a house.
"THEY say"? Who are "they"?Another lie is they say Jesus is born on December 25th.
And Christians.Christmas is a holiday celebrated by some atheists, agnostics, psychics, religionists (non-Christians), etcetera.
Jesus said we can't give gifts to people to show we love them?? Where did he say that?Giving gifts primarily to those who love you was a practice condemned by Jesus.
No one thinks we are fellowshipping with darkness, except you.What fellowship does light have with darkness?
Christmas trees have as much to do with the Nativity as egg-laying bunnies have to do with Pascha...Actually, the article you quoted (and didn't bother linking to), says it was the puritans who rejected Christmas trees, and indeed any kind of festive spirit such as singing Christmas carols and putting up any decorations.
Christmas trees have as much to do with the Nativity as egg-laying bunnies have to do with Pascha...
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