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Struggles by Non-Christians
Why I can't accept Christianity
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<blockquote data-quote="leftrightleftrightleft" data-source="post: 73526561" data-attributes="member: 246343"><p>Welcome.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There are many branches of Christianity and I would caution you from equating what a particular group of Christians say in 2018 with what God is or what Jesus said 2000 years ago. There's a lot to unpack and a lot of historical baggage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, very likely. The idea that parts of the Bible are allegorical, metaphorical or poetic goes back to a time <em>before Christianity or "the Bible" even existed</em>. Jewish scholars like Philo of Alexandria advocated for allegorical interpretations of Genesis. Philo of Alexandria lived <em>before Jesus</em>. Some early and influential Christian thinkers such as Origin of Alexandria and St. Augustine suggested allegorical interpretations of parts of the Bible.</p><p></p><p>It is also worth remembering that <em>the Bible is allegorical in a self-referential way</em>. For example, the Gospel of Matthew interprets Hosea 11:1 allegorically.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Church as community can be very rewarding and important. Even if you don't believe every part or agree with every thing the priest/pastor is saying, it does not matter. I would encourage you to take notes during sermons and write down things you disagree with. Write down any logical inconsistencies you see or things that don't make sense. It can be very rewarding and you will learn a lot. </p><p></p><p>I don't think you need to have all your ducks in a row before you sit in the pew. You can question. You can wrestle. You can ask questions. It would be great if you could find someone in the church who is also of a similar philosophical mindset that you can share your thoughts with via a weekly or monthly coffee/dinner date.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes the Bible contains contradictions. The Bible need not be seen as literal history nor does it need to be seen as a textbook. And even if you do view it as a textbook, just because a textbook has some errors does not invalidate the whole book (especially if the error is just a small typo or something). In ancient times, books like those that are in the Bible were not viewed through our scientific lens. They had a very well-developed story-telling culture. The arc of the story was what was truly important. The <em>meaning </em>or <em>moral </em>of the story was of ultimate importance. The Gospels highlight this in a great way: four different stories with different details that all contain the same general arc.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Old Testament is messy. It records a particular Near Eastern tribe's history from thousands of years ago. Life was rough back then. It included near-constant war with neighbouring tribes. In comparison, the 21st century is arguably one of the most peaceful and prosperous times in all of history. We are far-removed from killing and war (especially in Western countries).</p><p></p><p>To me, the Old Testament is primarily there to explain the culture from which Jesus came. Jesus does not advocate slaughter or killing. The New Testament does not advocate slaughter or killing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm going to go out on a limb here and argue that most ancient Jews and most early Christians did not believe that God was omniscient or omnipotent.</p><p></p><p>The Bible contains very few references that explicitly say that God is omnipotent or omniscient. Much of the Old Testament consists of different tribes trying to out-compete each other's gods. The only idea that truly comes from the Old Testament is that the God of Israel (e.g. Yahweh) is <em>more</em> powerful than <em>other</em> gods. But it does not imply that Yahweh is <em>all</em> powerful. </p><p></p><p>There are also various verses in the Bible that suggest that God is <em>not </em>omniscient (or at least that the Jewish writers didn't think he was omniscient). In Genesis, God doesn't know where Adam and Eve are hiding (Genesis 3:9). God frequently changes his mind suggesting that the future is un-determined and un-knowable (e.g. Exodus 32:14, Amos 7:3, Jonah 3:10, Jeremiah 26:13, etc.)</p><p></p><p>The only thing that the New Testament is <em>very </em>clear on is that God is all-loving and all-good (i.e. omnibenevolent). That much is clear. <strong>God loves</strong>. </p><p></p><p>The Old Testament also says this at times but also contains some unsavoury bits where God tells people to obliterate entire towns and stuff. Make of this what you may. In some sense, God cannot be all rainbows and butterflies because that makes morality useless. The only way morality can actually matter is if God gets mad when people screw up. Just like how a parent will punish their child for doing something wrong. If a parent just lets their kid run free and un-punished then the kid won't grow up into the best person they can be. Punishment is a feature rather than a flaw. But I do recognize that the way it is written in the Bible is kind of over-the-top and obliterating entire towns is a bit on the hyperbolic side. If we take a long-view of history then this kind of over-the-top cosmic punishment could maybe make some sense. Like I said earlier, it was a war-filled time in history where people were killing people all the time. It may have been tempting for a tribal leader to justify the war by appealing to a higher power.</p><p></p><p>I'll also mention that most of Christian history has focused on the epic dualistic battle of good and evil (e.g. God vs. Satan). A battle implies a fight which implies that God is not omnipotent. He is fighting for us. It also implies that God does not necessarily know how it will turn out. He is not omniscient. If the universe is a battle between good and evil then sometimes that spiritual battle will spill over into an actual physical battle. If God needs to get people to physically fight and kill others in order to stop some greater evil then maybe that is sometimes an unfortunate reality. For example, in World War II, many people had to fight and die in order to eradicate the horrible ideas of the Nazis. Would it have been better if no one fought them? Perhaps fighting and killing is sometimes virtuous. It sounds unsavoury to our 21st century ideals of peace and harmony, but it has historically been very necessary.</p><p></p><p><em>Our faith is not that God is omnipotent. Our faith is that our god is a god of love and goodness and he will win the fight.</em></p><p></p><p>I feel that this view solves the problem of evil very simply. It explains cancer and tsunamis and murder and rape and everything bad in the world. These are just the times where Evil "beats" God in God's cosmic effort to eradicate suffering. The Christian message is to have faith not that there will <em>never </em>be suffering but rather to have faith that <em>one day </em>God will win and suffering will be eradicated. This philosophy also inspires action as we must be the best person we can be in helping to eradicate suffering from our own lives and the lives around us. We should try to be part of the solution in this active spiritual and physical battle.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think modern Christianity has completely missed the boat on the way Jesus, ancient Christians, and ancient Jews viewed the afterlife.</p><p></p><p>I would encourage you to read up on the history of Heaven and Hell. The Bible is not particularly clear on what heaven or hell is. The ancient Jews had the concept of "Sheol" which was just a general term for the afterlife or the grave. It was non-dualistic (e.g. everyone basically went to Sheol after death). It was neither a place of eternal torment or a place of eternal bliss. Both the righteous and the unrighteous went there.</p><p></p><p>Jesus uses the garbage dump outside Jerusalem (Gehenna) where garbage was burned as a metaphor for what happens to people that don't repent to God before they die. This place is often translated as "hell" in modern Bibles although "hell" was a dualistic term borrowed from Greek thinkers. There is no indication that Jesus thought of this as any sort of literal place.</p><p></p><p>The Kingdom of Heaven is also a common phrase used by Jesus. But he often implies that it is a place <em>here </em>and <em>now </em>rather than some other place elsewhere in the future (e.g. Matthew 3:2, Matthew 10:7, Romans 14:17, etc.). It is accessible to us as a state of mind and may not be specifically related to an afterlife, per se.</p><p></p><p>The message of Jesus is essentially a message of repentance and forgiveness. The way I view it is that we can choose to follow Jesus' message and find a more whole life. We put on the mind of Christ and seek God in all we do. That is the Kingdom of Heaven at hand here and now. What happens when we die is unknowable. But we can have faith that its something nice. </p><p></p><p>For me, I don't worry too much about the afterlife. It's too easy to become obsessed with it and miss out on the actual life you are living now.</p><p></p><p>I recommend the book <em>The Wisdom Jesus</em> by Cynthia Bourgeault.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="leftrightleftrightleft, post: 73526561, member: 246343"] Welcome. There are many branches of Christianity and I would caution you from equating what a particular group of Christians say in 2018 with what God is or what Jesus said 2000 years ago. There's a lot to unpack and a lot of historical baggage. Yes, very likely. The idea that parts of the Bible are allegorical, metaphorical or poetic goes back to a time [I]before Christianity or "the Bible" even existed[/I]. Jewish scholars like Philo of Alexandria advocated for allegorical interpretations of Genesis. Philo of Alexandria lived [I]before Jesus[/I]. Some early and influential Christian thinkers such as Origin of Alexandria and St. Augustine suggested allegorical interpretations of parts of the Bible. It is also worth remembering that [I]the Bible is allegorical in a self-referential way[/I]. For example, the Gospel of Matthew interprets Hosea 11:1 allegorically. Church as community can be very rewarding and important. Even if you don't believe every part or agree with every thing the priest/pastor is saying, it does not matter. I would encourage you to take notes during sermons and write down things you disagree with. Write down any logical inconsistencies you see or things that don't make sense. It can be very rewarding and you will learn a lot. I don't think you need to have all your ducks in a row before you sit in the pew. You can question. You can wrestle. You can ask questions. It would be great if you could find someone in the church who is also of a similar philosophical mindset that you can share your thoughts with via a weekly or monthly coffee/dinner date. Yes the Bible contains contradictions. The Bible need not be seen as literal history nor does it need to be seen as a textbook. And even if you do view it as a textbook, just because a textbook has some errors does not invalidate the whole book (especially if the error is just a small typo or something). In ancient times, books like those that are in the Bible were not viewed through our scientific lens. They had a very well-developed story-telling culture. The arc of the story was what was truly important. The [I]meaning [/I]or [I]moral [/I]of the story was of ultimate importance. The Gospels highlight this in a great way: four different stories with different details that all contain the same general arc. The Old Testament is messy. It records a particular Near Eastern tribe's history from thousands of years ago. Life was rough back then. It included near-constant war with neighbouring tribes. In comparison, the 21st century is arguably one of the most peaceful and prosperous times in all of history. We are far-removed from killing and war (especially in Western countries). To me, the Old Testament is primarily there to explain the culture from which Jesus came. Jesus does not advocate slaughter or killing. The New Testament does not advocate slaughter or killing. I'm going to go out on a limb here and argue that most ancient Jews and most early Christians did not believe that God was omniscient or omnipotent. The Bible contains very few references that explicitly say that God is omnipotent or omniscient. Much of the Old Testament consists of different tribes trying to out-compete each other's gods. The only idea that truly comes from the Old Testament is that the God of Israel (e.g. Yahweh) is [I]more[/I] powerful than [I]other[/I] gods. But it does not imply that Yahweh is [I]all[/I] powerful. There are also various verses in the Bible that suggest that God is [I]not [/I]omniscient (or at least that the Jewish writers didn't think he was omniscient). In Genesis, God doesn't know where Adam and Eve are hiding (Genesis 3:9). God frequently changes his mind suggesting that the future is un-determined and un-knowable (e.g. Exodus 32:14, Amos 7:3, Jonah 3:10, Jeremiah 26:13, etc.) The only thing that the New Testament is [I]very [/I]clear on is that God is all-loving and all-good (i.e. omnibenevolent). That much is clear. [B]God loves[/B]. The Old Testament also says this at times but also contains some unsavoury bits where God tells people to obliterate entire towns and stuff. Make of this what you may. In some sense, God cannot be all rainbows and butterflies because that makes morality useless. The only way morality can actually matter is if God gets mad when people screw up. Just like how a parent will punish their child for doing something wrong. If a parent just lets their kid run free and un-punished then the kid won't grow up into the best person they can be. Punishment is a feature rather than a flaw. But I do recognize that the way it is written in the Bible is kind of over-the-top and obliterating entire towns is a bit on the hyperbolic side. If we take a long-view of history then this kind of over-the-top cosmic punishment could maybe make some sense. Like I said earlier, it was a war-filled time in history where people were killing people all the time. It may have been tempting for a tribal leader to justify the war by appealing to a higher power. I'll also mention that most of Christian history has focused on the epic dualistic battle of good and evil (e.g. God vs. Satan). A battle implies a fight which implies that God is not omnipotent. He is fighting for us. It also implies that God does not necessarily know how it will turn out. He is not omniscient. If the universe is a battle between good and evil then sometimes that spiritual battle will spill over into an actual physical battle. If God needs to get people to physically fight and kill others in order to stop some greater evil then maybe that is sometimes an unfortunate reality. For example, in World War II, many people had to fight and die in order to eradicate the horrible ideas of the Nazis. Would it have been better if no one fought them? Perhaps fighting and killing is sometimes virtuous. It sounds unsavoury to our 21st century ideals of peace and harmony, but it has historically been very necessary. [I]Our faith is not that God is omnipotent. Our faith is that our god is a god of love and goodness and he will win the fight.[/I] I feel that this view solves the problem of evil very simply. It explains cancer and tsunamis and murder and rape and everything bad in the world. These are just the times where Evil "beats" God in God's cosmic effort to eradicate suffering. The Christian message is to have faith not that there will [I]never [/I]be suffering but rather to have faith that [I]one day [/I]God will win and suffering will be eradicated. This philosophy also inspires action as we must be the best person we can be in helping to eradicate suffering from our own lives and the lives around us. We should try to be part of the solution in this active spiritual and physical battle. I think modern Christianity has completely missed the boat on the way Jesus, ancient Christians, and ancient Jews viewed the afterlife. I would encourage you to read up on the history of Heaven and Hell. The Bible is not particularly clear on what heaven or hell is. The ancient Jews had the concept of "Sheol" which was just a general term for the afterlife or the grave. It was non-dualistic (e.g. everyone basically went to Sheol after death). It was neither a place of eternal torment or a place of eternal bliss. Both the righteous and the unrighteous went there. Jesus uses the garbage dump outside Jerusalem (Gehenna) where garbage was burned as a metaphor for what happens to people that don't repent to God before they die. This place is often translated as "hell" in modern Bibles although "hell" was a dualistic term borrowed from Greek thinkers. There is no indication that Jesus thought of this as any sort of literal place. The Kingdom of Heaven is also a common phrase used by Jesus. But he often implies that it is a place [I]here [/I]and [I]now [/I]rather than some other place elsewhere in the future (e.g. Matthew 3:2, Matthew 10:7, Romans 14:17, etc.). It is accessible to us as a state of mind and may not be specifically related to an afterlife, per se. The message of Jesus is essentially a message of repentance and forgiveness. The way I view it is that we can choose to follow Jesus' message and find a more whole life. We put on the mind of Christ and seek God in all we do. That is the Kingdom of Heaven at hand here and now. What happens when we die is unknowable. But we can have faith that its something nice. For me, I don't worry too much about the afterlife. It's too easy to become obsessed with it and miss out on the actual life you are living now. I recommend the book [I]The Wisdom Jesus[/I] by Cynthia Bourgeault. [/QUOTE]
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