Why I am compelled to dispute Adventism

[Paul Yohannan]

I do not hate Seventh Day Adventists. I furthermore do not uniquely object to their doctrines; there are several other denominations I am rather more aggrieved with. For example, many of the liberal mainline Protestant churches such as the UCC, the PCUSA, and so on, at times seem to exist only to vexate me; at night I very nearly dream of being mocked with maniacal laughter by the current and former presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, while various irritating Methodist elders and ELCA pastors promote anti-Orthodox ideas while poking me with cattle prods. Alright, this is admittedly hyperbolic exaggeration, but perhaps you get my point.

So why do I criticize the Adventists while leaving uncriticized liberal Protestantism, even welcoming members of these churches including clergy into my inner circle?

The answer is simply that Adventists, on CF.com, are responsible for the majority of criticisms of traditional Christian denominations including the Orthodox, as well as Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans, et cetera. Most of the issues of contention in this forum, in GT, and in other forums involve Adventists.

If liberal mainline Protestants made a point out of continually attacking traditionalists and the Orthodox and Catholics on these forums, and if Adventists did not, I would probably enjoy very cordial relations with the Adventists and instead direct my apologetics efforts at the liberals. But since the liberals leave us undisturbed in our tranquility (or perhaps, senescence), I am disinclined to challenge their views on CF.com, even if in other offline settings I am opposed to them to the point of what might be considered paranoia.

There are many things that could be discussed on CF.com more interesting and positive than these pointless doctrinal back and forths, and I would urge Adventists to consider why it is that I feel compelled to object to their views on this forum. If the Adventists would leave Catholics, Orthodox and magisterial Protestants uncriticized, and desist from continually posting polemics directed against us, I would have no reason to debate with them about anything, and would instead be able to direct my attention to more interesting subjects.

 

[Tigger45]

Ah, okay that makes sense. My first guess would of been you were previously SDA. We see a lot of former Mormons and Catholics being their biggest adversaries. That being said i see more anti traditional church practices and teachings come from fundamental Christians/neo evangelicals posters.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Ah, okay that makes sense. My first guess would of been you were previously SDA. We see a lot of former Mormons and Catholics being their biggest adversaries. That being said i see more anti traditional church practices and teachings come from fundamental Christians/neo evangelicals posters.

No, I was never SDA. I wouldn't even care about them except for this factor, and if the Adventists were to take a less controversial approach then I wouldn't really have any reason to debate with them.

 

[Stillicidia]

I sympathize and understand their error in hitting you with cattleprods.
I don't sympathize that you don't listen to them, why do you ignore them, and rally against them to the learning of nothing about them?

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I sympathize and understand their error in hitting you with cattleprods.
I don't sympathize that you don't listen to them, why do you ignore them, and rally against them to the learning of nothing about them?

I have a fair amount of knowledge concerning Adventism, and I do not ignore them; also note that no one is actually attacking me with cattleprods, that was a bit of a hyperbolic quip.

 

[Stillicidia]

I have a fair amount of knowledge concerning Adventism, and I do not ignore them; also note that no one is actually attacking me with cattleprods, that was a bit of a hyperbolic quip.

Knowledge about something is not the same as having a festering thought, this is why they think this, that is why they think that. Words and letters only have as much a face as you allow yourself to peer into.
This is why I say people ignore them. They don't ignore them, in so much action, even as I say they rally against them, again to the learning of nothing about them.

Just because they attack old traditions and old ways of Christianity does not allow you to be offended. Offendedness is the cause of the waxing of a cold heart, which is the dying of love. If your right hand offends you, cut it off. This is why people rally against them, is because they are offended.

As for who they are, why they are, where they come from, people do not care to know.
Neither do I. The forsight of the future would convey all those who would be saved will be saved, for which I do not care to be for or against denominations even if they are wrong. Those denominations which are wrong are yet fought against by those who are not as relaxed as I am. I would say, if your denomination is wrong, figure it out, I'm not going to attack you over it.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Your argument seems to be a criticism about the idea of theological debate in general, but I have to reject that criticism as being Pietistic and contrary to the historic practice of the early Church.

 

[Stillicidia]

Your argument seems to be a criticism about the idea of theological debate in general, but I have to reject that criticism as being Pietistic and contrary to the historic practice of the early Church.

I conveyed 3 nice lessons. Which is better, mysteries for edification, or debate.

Also I am against certain things. Why dismiss nice lessons because I believe a certain way? This is why I say you ignore people, and learn nothing.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I conveyed 3 nice lessons. Which is better, mysteries for edification, or debate.

Also I am against certain things. Why dismiss nice lessons because I believe a certain way? This is why I say you ignore people, and learn nothing.

What is best is the truth, and rigorous logical scrutiny is how we arrive there. I do not consider there is anything to learn from Adventism, because its central doctrines can be shown to be in opposition to the faith of the early church. What you say would be applicable ceteris paribus, in scenarios where Galatians 1:8 is not applicable.

Galatians 1:8 requires me to reject theological systems that are contrary to the faith of the early Church, at least, as far as I can tell, and Adventism and liberal mainline Protestantism, among other belief systems, both fall within that criteria.

However, on this forum, it is SDAs who seem most interested in trying to actively promote their belief system while deprecating others; the liberals less so, thus from an apologetics perspective, Adventism becomes a priority. If we had more non-Trinitarians who were outspoken I would focus primarily on them. I am told that this used to be more of a problem in this particular forum before I joined.

 

[Stillicidia]

What is best is the truth, and rigorous logical scrutiny is how we arrive there. I do not consider there is anything to learn from Adventism, because its central doctrines can be shown to be in opposition to the faith of the early church. What you say would be applicable ceteris paribus, in scenarios where Galatians 1:8 is not applicable.

Galatians 1:8 requires me to reject theological systems that are contrary to the faith of the early Church, at least, as far as I can tell, and Adventism and liberal mainline Protestantism, among other belief systems, both fall within that criteria.

However, on this forum, it is SDAs who seem most interested in trying to actively promote their belief system while deprecating others; the liberals less so, thus from an apologetics perspective, Adventism becomes a priority. If we had more non-Trinitarians who were outspoken I would focus primarily on them. I am told that this used to be more of a problem in this particular forum before I joined.

I don't know Adventism, but the scripture speaks of reading the Bible with rose colored glasses, consider if they are right, and you are wrong, rather than giving them no thought whatsoever. I know where I am, I can be content, if I were lost then I cannot be content. I hold the oldest Churches to be under the rose colored glasses. They have given themselves onto compromise long ago. I try not to attack them about that though, for which I sympathize with the talk of cattleprods. You say you like truth, and so, so long as you divide and interpret the Bible properly, you may be doing just fine, but you're never going to know that if you shove everyone away, even as you shoved me away.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I don't know Adventism, but the scripture speaks of reading the Bible with rose colored glasses, consider if they are right, and you are wrong, rather than giving them no thought whatsoever. I know where I am, I can be content, if I were lost then I cannot be content. I hold the oldest Churches to be under the rose colored glasses. They have given themselves onto compromise long ago. I try not to attack them about that though, for which I sympathize with the talk of cattleprods. You say you like truth, and so, so long as you divide and interpret the Bible properly, you may be doing just fine, but you're never going to know that if you shove everyone away.

Well, on this point I like to think that I dont shove away those, even outside of Orthodoxy, who have relevant opinions. However Galatians 1:8 does require me to disregard the views of those who seem to be preaching another gospel, to "shove the, away," literally, to let them be anathema, and strictly speaking, even debating with people where Galatians 1:8 might be applicable is granting them more than what Galatians 1:8 would require, morally speaking.

 

[Stillicidia]

There is Galatians 1:8 but there is also do not judge before its time. Do not be offended when all they do is attack the old church, if your right hand offends you, cut it off. Know, and understand, they feel so strongly about what they believe that they are willing to speak against the doctrines of their brethren to their brethren's offense. Therefore figure out why, even as you make a thread against them, you owe them that much.