Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I show that to be total fiction...unless you just want to acknowledge only what you want to include...as you do!
No I didn't...read it again...that's why you're "perplexed". The point I'm making is why do you exclude Josephus and Tacitus??? That's the argument! You seem to be framing in only what YOU WANT to include as evidence. That's my argument. If you want to include the church fathers who wasn't there...HOW do you not include Tacitus (who is in the Roman Senate at the time AND during the Neronic persecution), and Josephus (who actually fought against the Romans until captured and then was there when Jerusalem was destroyed.
No you didn't. You don't include John...and John says EXACTLY WHERE HE WAS in Revelation 1:9:
9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
What does John mean saying He was "PARTAKER IN THE TRIBULATION"? Seeing He was there when Jesus gave the discourse...John knows what THE TRIBULATION is.
Now you can discount that if you want...I believe that John is indicating this IS the tribulation Christ spoke of. Why would he frame it that way saying "and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."
I hold that to be significant!!! You don't have to...but as John speaks the word to the seven chuches..he again recites tribulation:
Revelation 2:9, 10:
9 I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Revelation 2:22:
22 Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
These are internal evidence that the tribulation had begun however the great tribulation (which Jesus spoke of) had not yet started.
These are what YOU SELECTED to prove, Again where is Josephus and Tacitus? Is it because they will throw a wrench into "your proof" they are not inculded...and what about John the apostle?
I don't have to "rant"...I don't need to do that...but I will challenge you...and YOU HAVE BEEN CHALLENGED!
You're afraid to answer the questions! Dan 7's four beast kingdom are a fact. The last beast kingdom that lasts to the end of the world is this kingdom, the 4th and 5th beast kingdoms in Dan 7 and Revelation, also a fact. Who's the city in Revelation built on 7 hills during the time of the new testament? Rome.The actual fact is that you provided your interpretation of what the scriptures in question mean. And that is all you provided. This is not "scriptural proof."
No...but the tribulation Jesus spoke of ended because He directly linked it to when Jerusalem was destroyed.The tribulation didnt end for Christians in 70ad.
Im sure you are aware of that.
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Tribulation is a promise..
Great Tribulation is gods wrath..
Preterism tries to remove our promise of Tribulation.
No...but the tribulation Jesus spoke of ended because He directly linked it to when Jerusalem was destroyed.
Preterism simply acknowledges history and doesn't blindly discount it. I will be the first to admit that just as with any teaching you have to weigh peterism...but they are right on this one...IT CANNOT be denied.
Simply look at the beginning of the Neronic persecution. EVERY SOURCE says it started in 64 AD and Jerusalem's destruction was completed in 70 AD.
Seems like seven years to me.
Also...tribulation is God's wrath...but not God's wrath of the last day when unbelievers are eternally judged and separated from God forever...THAT IS THE TRUE WRATH OF GOD...that's why Paul says God has not appointed us to wrath...BUT to obtain salvation!
Well lets give you some:Notice the lack of scripture in this rebuttal..
Not that I need it from every reply I get, but this one would have particularly helped your case..
Otherwise what you are telling me is completely subjective.
I gave you scripture to directly deny and you have, with nothing to back up your statement.
I answer them quite easily. Please note that Jesus is speaking to the disciples here...and he had already given THEM a definite sign of when to flee the city in Matthew 24:15The tribulation is not over with..
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Where is the Sun darkened?
Where is the moon not giving her light?
Where are the Stars falling from heaven?
Where was it noted that the powers of heaven were shaken?
How do you answer these questions?
I provided scriptural proof, where's yours? The beasts in Dan 7 equals the beasts in Rev 13. That's a fact!
The Emperor has no clothes on! Open your eyes
Well lets give you some:
As Jesus speaks to the disciples in Mathhew 24:9:
9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
The tribulation intensifies in Matthew 24:20, 21:
20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
I answer them quite easily. Please note that Jesus is speaking to the disciples here...and he had already given THEM a definite sign of when to flee the city in Matthew 24:15
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
This was something the disciples would see! We can be sure of that because Jesus give them the parable of the fig tree to know that these signs were given to them to recognize the time was on them.
The tribulation didnt end for Christians in 70ad.
Im sure you are aware of that.
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Tribulation is a promise..
Great Tribulation is gods wrath..
Preterism tries to remove our promise of Tribulation.
Rev.7:14, "out of the tribulation, the great one" noting the adjective is added by a second article and hence is emphatic, it's like an apposition and a climax. "The Great Tribulation" via the English structure of thoughts makes this refer to a wrathful time to come, eg, noting Matt.24:21-28, which refers to the destruction of Jerusalem.
My point: Here all the tribulations are combined throughout the whole N.T. in a compressed vision (Acts14:22).
Humble pie Jack, just had lemon pie, great!
Ok.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Is "such as" not the descriptor?)
How does that not indicate exactly what we are talking about in Rev?
That's right...is John not in a vision? Is the vision not prophetic? SO this is coming...it had not happened yet. He's writing this down as he sees it.How does that match with this verse?
Mat 24:21 and Rev 7:14 are precepts.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
You are essentially reconciling that these people John sees are people that havent died yet if this prophecy came to be fulfilled by 70ad and if you believe Revelation came before 70ad.
How do you counter?
There's nowhere in scripture saying the ten toes represents 10 kingdoms. The 4 beast kingdoms in Dan 7 are the same kingdoms represented in the image. The 4th beast kingdom, which is the two legs of iron in the image, has ten kings, not kingdoms:
The toes and feet represents this 11th horn, the 5th kingdom on the image, and the 2nd beast in Rev 13 with the two horns, the False Prophet. The 1st beast in Rev 13 represents the legs of iron and the 4th beast in Dan 7 with the ten horns, Rome. Rome is the last of all the empires being the 4th and 5th kingdoms in Dan 7 and the two beasts in Rev 13.Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Not everyone can recieve truth, I hope you can.Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
There's nowhere in scripture saying the ten toes represents 10 kingdoms. The 4 beast kingdoms in Dan 7 are the same kingdoms represented in the image. The 4th beast kingdom, which is the two legs of iron in the image, has ten kings, not kingdoms:
The toes and feet represents this 11th horn, the 5th kingdom on the image, and the 2nd beast in Rev 13 with the two horns, the False Prophet. The 1st beast in Rev 13 represents the legs of iron and the 4th beast in Dan 7 with the ten horns, Rome. Rome is the last of all the empires being the 4th and 5th kingdoms in Dan 7 and the two beasts in Rev 13.
Dan 7:11's 11th horn being given to the flame is Rev 19:20, proving the Beast in Rev 17:12 is also the 8th horn of the 10 on Dan 7's 4th beast kingdom of Rome. These are the facts. The 5th kingdom of the toes and feet doesn't have ten kingdoms because of the ten toes. It is the 11th horn, the 2nd beast in Rev 13, the False Prophet. The reason he has two horns is because they represent him and the "devil" that's cast into the lake of fire post the 1,000 yrs reign.
The "Devil" isn't the "devil" that's cast into the lake of fire, but Gog, the Greek lil horn from Dan 8:11 and 11:31. The False Prophet and Gog are two of the four Euphrates angels released during the 6th trump. Check the connection between Ez 39:22 and Rev 20:9. They're the same event, the reason Dan 11's context jumps from the Greek kings to the 2nd resurrection in Dan 12.
What Christianity hasn't discovered yet is the "Wheat and Tares" harvest resurrection is the 3rd resurrection of this physical world into the New Shalem or the lake of fire. There's no "throne" judgement in the 3rd resurrection. The 2nd Resurrection is the "Great White Throne" judgement. The 1st resurrection was for the just only:
Not everyone can recieve truth, I hope you can.
There's nowhere in scripture saying the ten toes represents 10 kingdoms. The 4 beast kingdoms in Dan 7 are the same kingdoms represented in the image. The 4th beast kingdom, which is the two legs of iron in the image, has ten kings, not kingdoms:
The toes and feet represents this 11th horn, the 5th kingdom on the image, and the 2nd beast in Rev 13 with the two horns, the False Prophet. The 1st beast in Rev 13 represents the legs of iron and the 4th beast in Dan 7 with the ten horns, Rome. Rome is the last of all the empires being the 4th and 5th kingdoms in Dan 7 and the two beasts in Rev 13.
Dan 7:11's 11th horn being given to the flame is Rev 19:20, proving the Beast in Rev 17:12 is also the 8th horn of the 10 on Dan 7's 4th beast kingdom of Rome. These are the facts. The 5th kingdom of the toes and feet doesn't have ten kingdoms because of the ten toes. It is the 11th horn, the 2nd beast in Rev 13, the False Prophet. The reason he has two horns is because they represent him and the "devil" that's cast into the lake of fire post the 1,000 yrs reign.
The "Devil" isn't the "devil" that's cast into the lake of fire, but Gog, the Greek lil horn from Dan 8:11 and 11:31. The False Prophet and Gog are two of the four Euphrates angels released during the 6th trump. Check the connection between Ez 39:22 and Rev 20:9. They're the same event, the reason Dan 11's context jumps from the Greek kings to the 2nd resurrection in Dan 12.
What Christianity hasn't discovered yet is the "Wheat and Tares" harvest resurrection is the 3rd resurrection of this physical world into the New Shalem or the lake of fire. There's no "throne" judgement in the 3rd resurrection. The 2nd Resurrection is the "Great White Throne" judgement. The 1st resurrection was for the just only:
Not everyone can recieve truth, I hope you can.
I give you scripture as facts, and you laugh. Where are your facts? Where in scripture can I find the 10 toes descibed as kingdoms?Yeah, that makes great sense to a preterist lol..
Why do believe prophecy must work with the future? You give no regards to what's said in prophecy, but since it's prophecy, it's future. Now that's funny!I believe that prophecy by definition must also work with the future, the future isnt here yet, neither are our promises that were given us.
Who said he was? That's an interesting topic for another thread. The only time Christ is seen on a white horse in Revelation is at the Armageddon, but in Rev 4-7, he's brought on a cloud before God's throne. You, I assume, futurists never mention God and his throne as mentioned in Dan 7:9 and Rev 4-5, Christ's 1st appearance since his crucifixtion, appearing before God and his throne. The only picture you paint is Christ returning on a white horse. Isn't that contradicting the chronology of Revelation and Dan 7 as the order of Christ's appearance post the crucifixtion? Christ appearing before God's throne is his 1st appearance since the crucifixtion.Christ wont be riding on a donkey when he comes next time..
Victors ride white horses..
I give you scripture as facts, and you laugh. Where are your facts? Where in scripture can I find the 10 toes descibed as kingdoms?
Your ignoring the facts shows your lack of respect for God and the truth.
Why do believe prophecy must work with the future? You give no regards to what's said in prophecy, but since it's prophecy, it's future. Now that's funny!
Who said he was? That's an interesting topic for another thread. The only time Christ is seen on a white horse in Revelation is at the Armageddon, but in Rev 4-7, he's brought on a cloud before God's throne. You, I assume, futurists never mention God and his throne as mentioned in Dan 7:9 and Rev 4-5, Christ's 1st appearance since his crucifixtion, appearing before God and his throne. The only picture you paint is Christ returning on a white horse. Isn't that contradicting the chronology of Revelation and Dan 7 as the order of Christ's appearance post the crucifixtion? Christ appearing before God's throne is his 1st appearance since the crucifixtion.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?