Why have we allowed strange music and a bedlam of noise and dancing in our worship?

[reddogs]

It seems our worship services have began to include rock and roll music, drumming, and dancing in many of our churches to say nothing of the clapping, applause. You go on Sabbath Morning, and the drums are on the pulpit along with electrified instruments of every kind and then Stadium or theater sound systems to amplify them further. My wife and I had to leave one church as the speakers were bigger than my car and hung right above us and you can imagine how loud they had them. We went to the Spanish churches thinking they would be more conservative, but they are building their churches with the same seating and huge booming speakers that cant be for the preaching of the word, but certainly to wake the dead in my opinion. Then the unseemly and provocative dancing, we just came from a Camporee where the young people were "shaking" and "swinging" parts of their bodies best left unsaid and pumping and cheering on the others to join in during Sabbath and vespers. Needless to say our club didn't budge, and our kids stayed reverent, and I couldn't sing a word I was so stunned at the behavior from the pulpit/stage. Have we so lost our way that anything is permissible during worship, is there any reverence left in our churches or are we bringing the next generation to Led Zep and Grateful Dead concerts in our worship service.

Whats happened to Christian principles and worship, to say nothing of the warnings from SOP...

A Bedlam of Noise Which Confuses the Senses. --The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a bedlam of noise. This is an invention of Satan to cover up his ingenious methods for making of none effect the pure, sincere, elevating, ennobling, sanctifying truth for this time. Better never have the worship of God blended with music than to use musical instruments to do the work which last January was represented to me would be brought into our camp meetings. The truth for this time needs nothing of this kind in its work of converting souls. A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise, to have a carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirit’s working.
No encouragement should be given to this kind of worship. The same kind of influence came in after the passing of the time in 1844. The same kind of representations were made. Men became excited, and were worked by a power thought to be the power of God. --Letter 132, 1900, to S. N. Haskell. (Published in Selected Messages, Book 2, pp. 36, 37.)

Music Acceptable if "Properly Conducted," Made Satan’s Snare. --The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with such a confusion of noise and multitude of sounds as passed before me last January. Satan works amid the din and confusion of such music, which, properly conducted, would be a praise and glory to God. He makes its effect like the poison sting of the serpent.

Those things which have been in the past will be in the future. Satan will make music a snare by the way in which it is conducted. God calls upon His people, who have the light before them in the Word and in the Testimonies, to read and consider, and to take heed. Clear and definite instruction has been given in order that all may understand. But the itching desire to originate something new results in strange doctrines, and largely destroys the influence of those who would be a power for good if they held firm the beginning of their confidence in the truth the Lord had given them. --Letter 132, 1900 to S. N. Haskell. (Published in Selected Messages, Book 2, pp. 37, 38.) (Emphasis Supplied)

These [in Indiana] were carried away by a spiritualistic delusion. --Evangelism, p. 595.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I am so sorry you are having to endure that apostasy in the denomination... may God minister to their hearts to turn from their destruction.

Thankfully we have been out of it for almost 10 years now and God has blessed us abundantly... we could not have learned as much about our Lord and Saviour if we had been taught by men with unconverted hearts.

I refuse to refer to the conference as the church because it does not conduct itself as the body of Christ. The Seventh Day Adventist movement still exists in Christ's faithful followers... the true remnant. Amen

 

[DarylFawcett]

I wouldn't blame the whole denomination for the actions of a few churches or conferences.

 

[reddogs]

I am so sorry you are having to endure that apostasy in the denomination... may God minister to their hearts to turn from their destruction.

Thankfully we have been out of it for almost 10 years now and God has blessed us abundantly... we could not have learned as much about our Lord and Saviour if we had been taught by men with unconverted hearts.

I refuse to refer to the conference as the church because it does not conduct itself as the body of Christ. The Seventh Day Adventist movement still exists in Christ's faithful followers... the true remnant. Amen

That can be dangerous my brother, I will speak to it a bit later as I am leaving for work....

 

[reddogs]

Following the 1888 General Conference session there was a decided change in Ellen White's attitude toward the voice, of the General Conference. Understanding the dynamics of what happened during the 1890s and the circumstances under which Ellen White wrote can help eliminate the confusion that exists today.

At the 1888 General Conference, where A. T. Jones and E. J. Waggoner presented their messages on righteousness by faith, O. A. Olsen was elected president. The opposition to these messages on the part of certain key individuals is well known. Olsen chose two men from among those who were not in sympathy with these messages and made them his key advisers—A. R. Henry and Harmon Lindsay. Because of their various responsibilities in the General Conference and Review office, and because of their strong personalities, they were able to sway the various boards and committees to follow their line of thinking.

Repeatedly Ellen White wrote to Olsen, warning him against the counsel of these men. They were not only sweeping Olsen along with them, but they were influencing others to make wrong decisions. The following problems were isolated by Ellen White during Olsen's tenure: (1) decisions voted by boards were deliberately not carried out by those who had the responsibility for their implementation;6 (2) Olsen treated Henry and Lindsay as representative men and sent them throughout the field to give counsel, men "to whom the people shall listen and show respect as the voice of God in the conference"; 7 (3) these men exercised their authority as "kingly power"; 8 (4) while connected with the Review, these men dealt in an un-Christlike way with those who were to receive royalties for their writings; 9 (5) Henry and Lindsay refused to be worked by the Holy Spirit and turned away from obeying God's word; 10 (6) decisions for the whole work were made by a handful of
people under the influence of these men. 11
Although in 1875 Ellen White considered the General Conference and the decisions made by this body as "the voice of the highest authority the Lord has upon the earth," less than 20 years later her attitude was quite different.

Taking into consideration all of the abuses that existed at the center of the work, Ellen White was forced to say: "This is the reason I was obliged to take the position that there was not the voice of God in the General Conference management and decisions. Method and plans would be devised that God did not sanction, and yet Elder Olsen made it appear that the decisions of the General Conference were as the voice of God. Many of the positions taken, going forth as the voice of the General Conference, have been the voice of one, two, or three men who were misleading the conference."

It is not clear in the 1875 statement (Testimonies, vol. 3, p. 492) whether Ellen White is speaking of the General Conference in session, or whether she is referring to the daily and weekly decisions that were necessary for the advancement of the work. Her statements after 1888 about the decisions of the General Conference not being the voice of God seem to reflect the daily and weekly decisions that were made. It is in this context that Elders Henry and Lind say would have had the greatest influence. As noted above, Ellen White said in 1891, "Many of the positions taken, going forth as the voice of the General Conference, have been the voice of one, two, or three men who were misleading the conference."

But does this mean that God has rejected His people, and that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is no longer His representative on earth? Not at all.

During the early 1890s, at the very time Ellen White was saying that the voice of the General Conference was no longer to be considered the voice of God, A. W. Stanton published the tract "The Loud Cry! Babylon Fallen!" Stanton proclaimed the Seventh-day Adventist Church as Babylon, and said the loud cry of Revelation was to God's true people to come out of her.

Upon reading Stanton's tract, Ellen White picked up her pen and wrote: "I feel deep sorrow of heart that [Stanton] did not plead with God, 'Bless me, O God, bless now I see my error. Thou art communicating to Thy people the richest truths ever committed to mortals. These people are not Babylon; for Thou hast given to them righteousness and peace; and Thy joy, that their joy may be full.'. . .

"How could [Stanton] come from that meeting where the power of God was revealed in so marked a manner [the 1893 General Conference session], and pro claim that the loud cry was that the commandment-keeping people were Babylon?. . .
"I have no such message to give; but one of an entirely different character....
"Beware of those who arise with a great burden to denounce the church. The chosen ones who are standing and breasting the storm of opposition from the world, and are uplifting the downtrodden commandments of God to exalt them as honorable and holy, are indeed the light of the world.
"How dare mortal man pass his judgment upon them, and call the church a harlot, Babylon, a den of thieves?. . .


"When anyone is drawing apart from the organized body of God's commandment-keeping people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human scales, and begins to pronounce judgment against them, then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track."

 

[reddogs]

As the church gathered for the General Conference session of 1901, Ellen White stressed the urgency of reorganization: "That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be—that is past. What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation, and to build upon a different principle."

In this reorganization she saw the prospects of breaking the power of those she considered to be unfaithful stewards. Her hopes were realized. The General Conference Committee was enlarged to include representation from the world field. Elder A. G. Daniells was elected president. Independent entities were brought under the leadership of the General Conference, and departments were established to guide the work of these entities, including the medical work. Union conferences were established, and the day-to-day decisions of running a world work were given to the local and union conferences.

Looking back at this historic session, Ellen White wrote, "Every time I think of that meeting, a sweet solemnity comes over me, and sends a glow of gratitude to my soul." ....

From 1901 on, Ellen White spoke positively regarding the future of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
In 1905 she wrote: "We cannot now step off the foundation that God has established. We cannot now enter into any new organization; for this would mean apostasy from the truth."
In 1908: "I am instructed to say to Seventh-day Adventists the world over, God has called us a people to be a peculiar treasure unto Himself. He has appointed that His church on earth shall stand perfectly united in the Spirit and counsel of the Lord of hosts to the end of time."

In 1909 she spoke again about the authority of the General Conference when in session: "At times, when a small group of men entrusted with the general management of the work have, in the name of the General Conference, sought to carry out unwise plans and to restrict God's work, I have said that I could no longer regard the voice of the General Conference, represented by these few men, as the voice of God. But this is not saying that the decisions of a General Conference composed of an assembly of duly appointed, representative men from all parts of the field should not be respected. God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of commit ting is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has vested in His church in the judgment and voice
of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work. "

In 1913 she wrote: "I am encouraged and blessed as I realize that the God of Israel is still guiding His people, and that He will continue to be with them, even to the end."

Just prior to Ellen White's death W. C. White said: "During our conversation, I told her [Lida Scott] how Mother regarded the experience of the remnant church, and of her positive teaching that God would not permit this denomination to so fully apostatize that there would be the coming out of another church."...https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1987/12/the-church-voice-of-god

 

[reddogs]

Now many people ask but what about all the things Ellen White wrote against the church, but did she or was it to individuals. We must look at the historical record and see the context to gain a understanding, Ellen White did not back down from those in positions of power and leadership and leading members in the church who were in doing things that were hurting the church or of self or outright error. We find that she had to admonish in very specific ways the leaders who fought against the 1888 message that Jones and Waggoner brought to the church, and Dr. J. H. Kellogg and his ideas he brought in the Living Temple (see Robert H. Pierson article,https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1977/08/the-alpha-of-apostasy), and others who she pointed out as needing to repent of what they were doing or just outright unconverted. Ellen White as Gods messenger always was helping unveil much new light and support many truths such as the Sabbath that became pillars of and part of Adventism.

In “Messenger of the Lord, The Prophetic Ministry of Ellen G. White” page 184 Herbert E. Douglass writes:
“Being the messenger, however, meant that she was often ahead of the church’s leaders, not only in theological insights and their practical applications, but also in her continual insistence on unity and organization. In comparing other contemporary millenarians such as the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses, historians and sociologists consider “remarkable” the rapid transition from the post-Millerite instability to the “largely stable, uniform organization” achieved by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Five reasons are suggested for this phenomenon in the development of Sabbatarian Adventists:
(1) they separated themselves from other post-Millerite groups and millenarians “after the reformulation of ideas”; (2) they “not only preached the Advent but the conditions for it”; (3) “these conditions were validated by divine inspiration, whereby the group acquired an independent source of inspiration, apart from the Scriptures”; (4) they “established a professional ministry which opened the way to other specialized agencies”; and (5) they developed an “accretion of concerns for education, diet, medical care, religious liberty, and Sabbatarianism [that] further advanced its denominationalization both ideologically and institutionally.”

None of these five components would have resulted in a worldwide religious movement without Ellen White’s presence and messages…. In the early years of the Adventist experience, the lack of organization led to various problems and disillusionment. Self-appointed ministers preached what they pleased; even the “appointed” traveled without salary or paid expenses. Divisions arose in the scattered groups of believers, and no method for dealing with divisive heresies existed. Whatever church properties they used were held in the name of some individual member; when the member died, the property passed to relatives, some of whom were not church members. By 1853, James and Ellen White were urging church organization to eliminate “uncredentialed” ministers and to establish a stable basis for owning church property
.
But this plea for organization was met with strong resistance. Organization for many was a “return to Babylon.” Opposers to organization still felt the sting of the organized churches that refused the Millerite call. The religious freedom that Adventists had been enjoying for a few years, they did not want to exchange for the cold blanket of an organized church. Organization, for them, was inconsistent with the freedom of the gospel

In 1853, James White, the “father of our present church order,” wrote five editorials in the Review and Herald on organization, with little or no positive response. But Ellen White’s quiet, firm, counsel eventually caught the attention of church leaders and they were led to see the common sense and urgency of her husband’s call for organization.

Many meetings were held as leaders studied the need and method of organization. One of the first considerations was a name for this new body of Adventist believers. On October 1, 1860, the name finally chosen was, “Seventh-day Adventists.”..."www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/motl.pdf

As long as the pioneers were leading the church, there was great unity, but as new leaders came in there came a change. Then with these new leaders came the 1888 at the General Conference session held in Minneapolis, which was the beginning of a heated theological debate that continued publicly for three years without resolution. Ellen White witnessed the events of Minneapolis firsthand, and she spoke and wrote much during the 1888 period. Shortly after the Minneapolis meeting, Mrs. White wrote a 26-page manuscript entitled, "Looking Back at Minneapolis"[ Ellen White, Manuscript 24, 1888.] to ensure that the actions of the Denominational leaders would be preserved accurately.
Ellen White was convinced that God had "raised up" two young ministers, E. J. Waggoner and A. T. Jones, to give a message to the delegates at the conference.
Even Ellen White could not turn the conflict that enveloped the Conference. Although she supported and protected Waggoner and Jones as much as possible, Ellen White realized that their theological positions were being resisted by the church's leaders.

As a direct result of the resistance to the message given by Jones and Waggoner, Ellen White relationship with many of the denomination's leaders was strained. Ellen White's statements regarding the significance of the 1888 meeting continued in both her private and public communications. By the Spring of 1890, she was still actively supporting the "fresh light" that had been delivered at Minneapolis by Waggoner and Jones, and she even went so far as to publicly connect Waggoner's 1888 message with the loud cry of the fourth angel of Revelation 18 in an article in the Review [Ellen G. White, "Repentence, the Gift of God," Review & Herald (April 1890).]. In this article, Ellen White challenged the church to receive the new message that would empower the denomination to break out of their Laodician condition. But those in position of power rejected what she was writing and were resisting her counsel.

By 1891, however, the three individuals most responsible for the doctrinal innovations introduced at the Conference, Ellen White, A. T. Jones, and E.J. Waggoner found themselves separated by distant continents. Because of Ellen White's support of Waggoner and Jones, church leaders at Battle Creek decided to send her and Waggoner out of the country in an attempt to cool down the divisive situation [George Knight, Angry Saints (Hagerstown, MD: Review & Herald Publishing Association, 1989), pp. 94-95.]. Thus, in 1891, Ellen White was transferred to Australia and Waggoner to Great Britain.

In spite of this, Ellen White would not be silenced and continued the dialogue. In a two-part article appearing in the Review entitled, "The Perils and Privileges of the Last Days," she linked the Minneapolis message of Christ's righteousness with the loud cry, and made the strong statement that the loud cry of the fourth angel had already begun with Waggoner's 1888 message. "The time of test is just upon us," she wrote, "for the loud cry of the third angel has already begun in the revelation of the righteousness of Christ, the sin pardoning redeemer. This is the beginning of the light of the angel whose glory shall fill the whole earth [Ellen G. White, Review & Herald, volume 69, No. 46, p. 615.] ."

Ellen White, while still in Australia, directed sharp remarks about the Minneapolis conflict to the church leadership in Battle Creek. However, the denomination's leadership stubbornly rejected Ellen White's counsel.

At the 1901 General Conference Ellen White told church leaders: “You have no right to manage unless you manage in God’s order. . . . What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation, and to build upon a different principle. . . . There are to be more than one or two or three men to consider the whole vast field. The work is great, and there is no one human mind that can plan for the work which needs to be done. . . . According to the light that has been given me—and just how it is to be accomplished I cannot say—greater strength must be brought into the managing force of the Conference. . . . There must be a renovation, a reorganization; a power and strength must be brought into the committees that are necessary.”[ General Conference Bulletin, April 3, 1901, pp. 23-26.]

These leaders who had not heeded her warning were swept out of office and A. G. Daniels became president of General Conference in 1901 and was much more in tune with Ellen White and her counsels to the church and he served as president until 1922, and also was chairperson of the Ellen G. White Estate.

 

[reddogs]

When we left the new church we had just built, many wanted to leave the Conference and Adventist church saying they had apostatized. But immediately it became apparent that they were being led by another power, as they wanted to stop any tithe being given to the church, and cut any ties, and follow a spirit of anger and hate against the Adventist organization or any its entities. They picked up voices of dissent against the church rather than the truth of the Gospel and tried to spread it. My wife and myself along with some of the others stood fast, we would stay in the church and fight from within for Gods truth, as SOP clearly told us the church would appear as if to fall but would not....:

"The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out—the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths.... The remnant that purify their souls by obeying the truth gather strength from the trying process, exhibiting the beauty of holiness amid the surrounding apostasy.

I know that the Lord loves His church. It is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms. There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be. Those who shall heed this false message and try to leaven others will be deceived and prepared to receive advanced delusions, and they will come to nought.

I am encouraged and blessed as I realize that the God of Israel is still guiding His people, and that He will continue to be with them, even to the end.

We cannot now step off the foundation that God has established. We cannot now enter into any new organization; for this would mean apostasy from the truth.

The church, soon to enter upon her most severe conflict, will be the object most dear to God upon earth. The confederacy of evil will be stirred with power from beneath, and Satan will cast all the reproach possible upon the chosen ones whom he cannot deceive and delude with his satanic inventions and falsehoods. But exalted “to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins,” will Christ, our representative and head, close His heart, or withdraw His hand, or falsify His promise? No; never, never." Maranatha, Page 203

 

[reddogs]

It was touch and go for a bit, but finally the leader that had been taking them away kind of fell apart, and it took the steam out of the others wanting to leave the Adventist church. I think God stepped in and he was taken away, and we found out as he said it himself, that he had been following a 'angel' that would appear to him. I didn't ask anything more as I surmised what kind of 'angel' was leading him, and it was as if a bubble burst and suddenly our path was clear to us. We moved forward and now we have rented a church and have been sponsored by one of our sister Adventist churches and God has blessed us. We actually have more people in our rented church on Sabbath morning than at our church we left behind, but we must give God the glory, it is from nothing we could have done ourselves. God watched over us and kept us in His fold, and brought us to where we are....

 

[newhopeinHim]

King David danced through an entire city when he found the ark of the covenant! God likes to have fun with us. The bible does tell us to dance before Him and shout and praise Him. This is where my biggest blessings come in. We are too busy trying to be sooooo religious all the time... that having (fun) with God is forbidden. King David understood how to worship the Lord! Amen!

 

[reddogs]

King David danced through an entire city when he found the ark of the covenant! God likes to have fun with us. The bible does tell us to dance before Him and shout and praise Him. This is where my biggest blessings come in. We are too busy trying to be sooooo religious all the time... that having (fun) with God is forbidden. King David understood how to worship the Lord! Amen!

It has a lot to do with the type of fun....
When Aaron saw how happy the people were about it, he built an altar before the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a feast to Jehovah!”

6 So they were up early the next morning and began offering burnt offerings and peace offerings to the calf idol; afterwards they sat down to feast and drink at a wild party, followed by sexual immorality.