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Why evolution should not be a religious issue

Sultan Of Swing

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Got to got to bed, now.

G'night.
You rigged my post! It's a rigged system folks.

Alright my bad, I should have used a different term then. It's coming down to semantics then, when really I'm trying to address a problem of evolution not being able to be falsified in any worthwhile sense, one that does not require an observation being falsified that can already be explained by other things.
 
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sfs

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I'm sorry, but that's not how physics works. Yes, you draw deductive conclusions, but only within the physical model your working with. In this case, it's a model that includes a constant speed of light and a wide range of other assumptions about physics. Within that model, you can compare observations with expectations under different hypotheses. You can't just look at the data and draw deductive conclusions about the true model however -- it's still inductive reasoning. Exactly the same is true of evolutionary biology. There's a reason that it's universally considered a scientific field within the scientific world.
 
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Strathos

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If a scientific theory implies that the Lord Jesus Christ was mistaken in what he believed and taught concerning human origins then that scientific theory is indeed an affront to Christianity because it is implying that Jesus was a deluded charlatan.

Jesus spoke in parables and was often deliberately unclear. He was not trying to teach people science, but to teach them about the spiritual world.
 
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Sultan Of Swing

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Of course you have to make assumptions, but you draw from determined variables, not looking at fossils or genome similarities. This logical deduction is different.

And on the speed of light, are you saying there is no empirical evidence that it is constant? Or what are you trying to say then?
 
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SteveB28

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Your writing is very hard to follow, but to summarise a response....

Evolutionary theory is concerned with an explanation within the natural world. As is gravitational theory. As is germ theory. As is atomic theory.

Each of these theories simply do what they are designed to do - examine some aspect of the natural world. They do NOT look to some religious 'signpost' before engaging in these examinations. They merely do what they have to do.


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sfs

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My point is that these are not worthwhile falsifications when other explanations exist. These are pointless, and do not serve to actually combat what Birch and Ehrlich are saying.
Have you read Birch and Ehrlich's paper? They're arguing against the unwarranted application of evolutionary theory; they're not arguing that the fact of common descent is somehow in doubt. There are frequently multiple possible hypotheses in evolutionary theory to explain a particular observation. In contrast, there is at present no competing hypothesis that could replace common descent as an overall explanation for biological diversity.
 
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SteveB28

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You should realise by now that the vast majority of people who accept evolutionary theory are your fellow Christians! Likewise, the vast majority of Christians accept evolutionary theory!

You are part of a shrinking minority....please acknowledge thus.


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sfs

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Of course you have to make assumptions, but you draw from determined variables, not looking at fossils or genome similarities.
You draw from determined values within your model: mutation rates, recombination rates, insertion probabilities for endogenous retroviruses... What was the difference again?
This logical deduction is different.
How much of both kinds of science have you done?
And on the speed of light, are you saying there is no empirical evidence that it is constant? Or what are you trying to say then?
Of course there's empirical evidence that the speed of light is constant. There's also empirical evidence that long terminal repeats are the result of unique retroviral insertions, and empirical evidence that genetic differences between species are the result of accumulated mutations. I'm arguing that there's no fundamental difference between the fields. I mean, sure, physics has a much easier subject matter to study, but biologists have to make do anyway.
 
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Sultan Of Swing

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So you agree there should be more skepticism of the tenets underlying evolution?
 
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Speedwell

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Of course you have to make assumptions, but you draw from determined variables, not looking at fossils or genome similarities.
Some genome similarities are very striking, however--such as the location of random retrovirus insertions which we share with other primates with whom we have other indications of common ancestry.
 
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Subduction Zone

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How do you repeat looking at a fossil record and drawing a conclusion? Do you just look at it again and again?

Various ways. First others could observe the same fossil and see if they agre with your interpretation. Second many fossils can be observed in more than one place. It is not just the fossils themselves that tell us life is the product of evolution it is also where and how they are found.

There is no creationist explanation that has not been refuted. At least none that I know of.

I don't claim to know exactly the mechanics of it all. I wasn't there in the distant past. However the onus is not on me, but the one proposing the hypothesis to convince me.
Right, but your inability to understand evolution is not my problem. That is your problems. If you won't let yourslef learn then that is your fault. Most creationists simply won't let themselves understand. That is one of the reasons that your side loses in court. Judges do at least understand the nature of evidence. Then can clearly see that their is evidence for evolution and none to speak of for creationism.
 
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Subduction Zone

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What "other explanations"? Refuted or self contradicting explanation are not explanations. You keep making thins claim but never post any.
 
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Sultan Of Swing

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You draw from determined values within your model: mutation rates, recombination rates, insertion probabilities for endogenous retroviruses... What was the difference again?
You're comparing mutation rates and recombination rates to the speed of light constant and assumptions we make in physical models... right. Even with these mutation rates, we still have to look at fossils and make deductions based on connecting dots etc. This is not the same as observing and making logical deductions.

How much of both kinds of science have you done?
Oh I'm much more a physics man admittedly. Probably wasn't hard to tell. (Or maybe it was hard to tell, and I just appear generally scientifically ignorant in all aspects. That's okay, I'll take it on the chin )

Y'know, useful science.

"easier subject matter to study" How dare you

It's just not very convincing to me, too much Sherlock Holmes and not enough Einstein.

"Long terminal repeats are the result of unique retroviral insertions"
Could you explain this one?

"empirical evidence that genetic differences between species are the result of accumulated mutations"
But we do not know how these differences actually occurred, because we weren't there in the distant past. Even if it suggests mutations, we don't actually know if there was a time they were one common ancestor, or they started with these apparent mutations.
 
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Sultan Of Swing

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There being no better explanation does not necessarily mean the only available one is true.

I understand it, I just don't find it convincing enough.
 
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Speedwell

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it's not the observation that is falsified, it is the prediction being falsified by the observation. You thought that dogs giving birth to cats as an hypothetical observation which would falsify evolution was silly; how about this: show that the duck and the platypus share stretches of identical DNA giving rise to their bills and webbed feet. Evolutionary biologists would have a lot of splainin to do about that.
 
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Sultan Of Swing

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Some genome similarities are very striking, however--such as the location of random retrovirus insertions which we share with other primates with whom we have other indications of common ancestry.
This does not necessitate that we actually share a common ancestor though. They suggest many things, but do not prove them.
 
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Sultan Of Swing

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You're asking me to just show things which don't exist. The point is not that there are random things that could end the theory, but that there should be things which can't be explained by any other means, which could end the theory.
 
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Speedwell

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There being no better explanation does not necessarily mean the only available one is true.
No, but it remains the only available one until it is falsified or superseded. That's how science works. That's as "true" as science gets.
 
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