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Why Evolution is True (2)

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createdtoworship

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"Again, Marx wrote to Engels, January 16, 1861, ‘Darwin’s book is very important and serves me as a basis in natural selection for the class struggle in history . . not only is a death blow dealt here for the first time to ‘teleology’ in the natural sciences but their rational meaning is emphatically explained.’ "—*C. Zirkle, Evolution, Marxian Biology, and the Social Scene (1959), p. 88.



"Defending Darwin is nothing new for socialists. The socialist movement recognized Darwinism as an important element in its general world outlook right from the start. When Darwin published his Origin of the Species in 1859, Karl Marx wrote a letter to Fredrick Engels in which he said: ‘. . this is the book which contains the basis in natural history for our view . .’ By defending Darwinism, working people strengthen their defenses against the attacks of these reactionary outfits, and prepare the way for the transformation of the social order."—*Cliff Conner, "Evolution vs. Creationism: In Defense of Scientific Thinking," International Socialist Review, November 1980.

"Ernst Haeckel (1834-1919) was an avid, self-appointed spokesman for Darwinism in Germany . . Haeckel professed a mystical belief in the forces of nature and a literal transfer of the laws of biology to the social realm. The movement he founded in Germany was proto-Nazi in character; romantic Volkism and the Monist League (established 1906), along with evolution and science, laid the ideological foundations of [German] National Socialism. " . . English Darwinism interlinked two main themes, natural selection and the struggle for existence. Social Darwinism is an attempt to explain human society in terms of evolution, but Haeckel’s [proto-Nazi] interpretation was quite different from that of capitalist Herbert Spencer or of communist Marx. For him a major component was the ethic of inherent struggle between higher and lower cultures,—between races of men."—*Michael Pitman, Adam and Evolution (1984), p. 48."Along with his social Darwinist followers, [Haeckel] set about to demonstrate the ‘aristocratic’ and nondemocratic aspect of the laws of nature . . Up to his death in 1919, Haeckel contributed to that special variety of German thought which served as the seed-bed for National Socialism. He became one of Germany’s main ideologists for racism, nationalism, and imperialism."—*Daniel Gasman, Scientific Origins of National Socialism: Social Darwinism in Ernst Haeckel and the German Monist League (1971), p. xvi.

"German Darwinism was shaped by Ernst Haeckel, who combined it with anticlericalism, militaristic patriotism and visions of German racial purity. He encouraged the destruction of the established church in Germany, with its sermons about ‘the meek shall inherit the earth’ and compassion for unfortunates. Such a ‘superstitious’ doctrine would lead to ‘racial suicide.’ "—*R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990), p. 119. ("Monism" is the theory that all reality consists only of matter. This teaching is an important basis of atheism).

"Of all the forerunners of Hitler in Germany—Hegel, Comte, Nietzsche, Bernhardi, and others—the most significant was certainly Ernst Haeckel, the atheistic founder of the Monist League and the most vigorous promoter of both biological Darwinism and social Darwinism in continental Europe in the late-nineteenth and early twentieth centuries."—H.M. Morris, Long War Against God (1989), pp. 77-78.

"Only the fittest should survive."

"He [Haeckel] convinced masses of his countrymen they must accept their evolutionary destiny as a ‘master race’ and ‘outcompete’ inferior peoples, since it was right and natural that only the ‘fittest’ should survive. His version of Darwinism was incorporated in Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf (1925), which means ‘My Struggle,’ taken from Haeckel’s German translation of Darwin’s phrase, ‘the struggle for existence.’ "—*R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990), p. 207 [also 312-313].

"In 1918, Darwin’s apostle Ernst Haeckel became a member of the Thule Gesellschaft, a secret, radically right-wing organization that played a key role in the establishment of the Nazi movement. Rudolf Hess and Hitler attended the meeting as guests (Phelps, 1963)."—Ian Taylor, In the Minds of Men (1987), p. 488.

"The great German exponent of Militarism, Nietzsche, extended the Darwinian principle of the survival of the fittest in order to inspire his countrymen to fight. According to him, ‘The supreme standard of life is purely materialistic vitality and power to survive.’ The 1914-1918 war was thus the calculated climax of a policy nourished on the diabolical ideas of Nietzsche for the subjugation of the world. General von Bernhardi in his book, The Next War, shows the connection between war and biology. According to him, ‘War is a biological necessity of the first importance, a regulative element in the life of mankind that cannot be dispensed with. War increases vitality and promotes human progress.’ The summuim bonum [highest good] of life according to Nietzsche’s own words is ‘Man shall be trained for war and woman for the recreation of the warrior; all else is folly’ " (Oscar Levy, Complete Works of Nietzsche, 1930, Vol. 2, p. 75).

"Adolph Hitler reiterated the same philosophy of life derived from the theory of evolution when he said, ‘The whole of nature is a continuous struggle between strength and weakness, and eternal victory of the strong over the weak."—H. Enoch, Evolution or Creation (1966) pp. 147-148.

"In defending two young men, Loeb and Leopold, for cruelly murdering a fourteen year old boy, by name of Bobby Franks, the celebrated criminal lawyer of the day, Clarence Darrow, traced their crime back to what they had learned in the university. He argued, ‘Is there any blame attached because somebody took Nietzsche’s philosophy seriously?’ His appeal to the judge was, ‘Your honour, it is hardly fair to hang a nineteen year old boy for the philosophy that was taught him at the university."—*W. Brigans (ed.), Classified Speeches, quoted in H. Enoch, Evolution or Creation (1966), p. 146.



"The greatest authority of all the advocates of war is Darwin. Since the theory of evolution has been promulgated, they can cover their natural barbarism with the name of Darwin and proclaim the sanguinary instincts of their inmost hearts as the last word of science."—*Max Nordau, "The Philosophy and Morals of War," in North American Review 169 (1889), p. 794.

*Barzun, a history teacher at Columbia University, wrote an epic book, Darwin, Marx, Wagner, in which he clearly showed that Darwinism inflamed militarism and warfare wherever it went.

"In every European country between 1870 and 1914 there was a war party demanding armaments, an individualist party demanding ruthless competition, an imperialist party demanding a free hand over backward peoples, a socialist party demanding the conquest of power, and a racialist party demanding internal purges against aliens—all of them, when appeals to greed and glory failed, or even before, invoked Spencer and Darwin, which was to say, science incarnate . . Race was biological, it was sociological; it was Darwinian."—*Jacques Barzun, Darwin, Marx, Wagner (1958), pp. 92-95.

"Darwin, Nietzsche, and Haeckel laid the foundations for the intense German militarism that eventually led to the Great War of 1914-1918. There were others who participated in the development, of course, including many of the German generals and political leaders, all very much under the spell of the German variety of social Darwinism. General Friedrich von Bernhardi said:" ‘War gives biologically just decisions, since its decisions rest on the very nature of things . . It is not only a biological law, but a moral obligation and, as such, an indispensable factor in civilization!’ "—H.M. Morris, Long War Against God (1989), p. 74.

"During World War I, German intellectuals believed natural selection was irresistibly all-powerful (Allmacht), a law of nature impelling them to bloody struggle for domination. Their political and military textbooks promoted Darwin’s theories as the ‘scientific’ basis of a quest for world conquest, with the full backing of German scientists and professors of biology."—*R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990), p. 59.

"One need not read far in Hitler’s Mein Kampf to find that evolution likewise influenced him and his views on the master race, genocide, human breeding experiments, etc."—Robert Clark, Darwin: Before and After (1948), p. 115.

"[The position in Germany was that] Man must ‘conform’ to nature’s processes, no matter how ruthless. The ‘fittest’ must never stand in the way of the law of evolutionary progress. In its extreme form, that social view was used in Nazi Germany to justify sterilization and mass murder of the ‘unfit,’ ‘incompetent,’ ‘inferior races.’ "—*R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990), p. 412.

The undesirables had to be eliminated.

"During the 1930s, Adolf Hitler believed he was carrying Darwinism forward with his doctrine that undesirable individuals (and inferior races) must be eliminated in the creation of the New Order dominated by Germany’s Master Race."—*R. Milner, Encylopedia of Evolution (1990), p. 119.

"[Hitler] stressed and singled out the idea of biological evolution as the most forceful weapon against traditional religion and he repeatedly condemned Christianity for its opposition to the teaching of evolution . . For Hitler, evolution was the hallmark of modern science and culture, and he defended its veracity as tenaciously as Haeckel."—*Daniel Gasman, Scientific Origins of Modern Socialism: Social Darwinism in Ernst Haeckel and the German Monist League (1971), p. 188.

Hitler said this:
"I regard Christianity as the most fatal, seductive lie that has ever existed."—*Adolf Hitler, quoted in *Larry Azar, Twentieth Century in Crisis (1990), p. 155."This doctrine of racial supremacy Hitler took at face value . . He accepted evolution much as we today accept Einsteinian relativity."—*Larry Azar, Twentieth Century in Crisis (1990), p. 180.

"Sixty-three million people would be slaughtered in order to obey the evolutionary doctrine that perishing is a law of nature."—*Op. cit., p. 181.

A Jewish biology professor at Purdue University, writing for the Association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists, said this:

"I cannot deny that the theory of evolution, and the atheism it engendered, led to the moral climate that made a holocaust possible."—*Edward Simon, "Another Side to the Evolution Problem," Jewish Press, January 7, 1983, p. 248.

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createdtoworship

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"Adolf Hitler’s mind was captivated by evolutionary thinking—probably since the time he was a boy. Evolutionary ideas, quite undisguised, lie at the basis of all that is worst in Mein Kampf and in his public speeches. A few quotations, taken at random, will show how Hitler reasoned . . [*Hitler said:] ‘He who would live must fight; he who does not wish to fight, in this world where permanent struggle is the law of life, has not the right to exist.’ "—*Robert E.D. Clark, Darwin: Before and After (1948), p. 115.

"Mussolini’s attitude was completely dominated by evolution. In public utterances, he repeatedly used the Darwinian catchwords while he mocked at perpetual peace, lest it hinder the evolutionary process."—*R.E.D. Clark, Darwin: Before and After (1948), p. 115.

"Benito Mussolini, who brought fascism to Italy, was strengthened in his belief that violence is basic to social transformation by the philosophy of Neitzsche."—*Encyclopedia Britannica (1982), Vol. 16, p. 27.

"Darwinism was welcomed in Communist countries since Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels had considered The Origin of the Species (1859) a scientific justification for their revolutionary ideology. As far as Socialist theorists were concerned, Darwinism had proved that change and progress result only from bitter struggle. They also emphasized its materialist basis of knowledge, which challenged the divine right of the czars."—*R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990), p. 119.

"Aspects of evolutionism are perfectly consistent with Marxism. The explanation of the origins of humankind and of mind by purely natural forces was, and remains, as welcome to Marxists as to any other secularists. The sources of value and responsibility are not to be found in a separate mental realm or in an immortal soul, much less in the inspired words of the Bible."—*Robert M. Young, "The Darwin Debate," in Marxism Today, Vol. 26, April 1982, p. 21.

"Marx and Engels were doctrinaire evolutionists, and so have all Communists been ever since. Since atheism is a basic tenet of Marxism in general, and Soviet Communism in particular, it is obvious that evolution must be the number one tenet of communism. Lenin and Trotsky and Stalin were all atheistic evolutionists, and so are today’s Communist leaders. In fact, they have to be in order ever to get to be Communist leaders!"—Henry Morris, Long War Against God (1989), p. 85.

"At a very early age, while still a pupil in the ecclesiastical school, Comrade Stalin developed a critical mind and revolutionary sentiments. He began to read Darwin and became an atheist."—*E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin (1940), pp. 8-9 [written and published in Moscow, by a close associate of *Stalin, while Stalin was alive].

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all four parts are from :

<Staff Edit> "Hitler, Evolution, and Survival of the Fittest" <Staff Edit>

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createdtoworship

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here is an excellent anti-darwinist at CSU stanislaus (close to me), I just found him by chance online.

Richard Weikart (turlock)

He has two excellent books:
Hitler's Ethic: The Nazi Pursuit of Evolutionary Progress. NY: Palgrave Macmillan, 2009; released in paperback in 2011.
From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany. NY: Palgrave Macmillan, 2004; released in paperback in 2006.

Richard Weikart's Vita
 
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Mainframes

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Evolution is not a philosophy.

All that you've quoted above is akin to saying that when the USA dropped the two atomic bombs on Japan, gravity helped the bombs fall out the plane towards their targets and therefore Gravity is a very bad thing that we should stop believing in.

It doesn't make it any less real, in the same same as evolution is any less real.
 
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Subduction Zone

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gradyll, since you Godwinized the thread I guess I can now safely remind you that Hitler was a Christian and that the works of Darwin were banned in Nazi Germany.
 
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Naturalism

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Naturalism

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technically thinking outside the box, would be the newer scientific discoveries of ID.

An those discoveries are....?

Not Evolution, which is based on outdated science, but for the most part is unobserved on a macro level and therefore not science at all. I would say to the evolution believers, it's time to think outside of the box.

So by "outside the box" you want science to change its methodology so it can include supernatural causes? This is exactly what Behe had admitted under oath in Dover v Kitzmiller in 2005. He admitted that only by changing the methods of science, so much so that it would make Astrology a science too.

let me sum up evolution for you.


Here, let me sup up creationism for you.

6th day, *pooof* human made from dirt.
 
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createdtoworship

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not supernatural causes, simply design in nature as being inside but not necessarily outside the universe. Which technically is not the definition of supernatural as it deals with only those things outside the scientific laws of the universe.

", ID advocates make no identification of the cause of intelligent design with God or any supernatural being. Fourth, they oppose laws mandating the teaching of creation or intelligent design. Rather, they concentrate only on showing that some intelligent cause (whether in or outside the universe) is a more likely cause for first life and new life forms. In this way they hope to escape the religious baggage of the “scientific creation” movement and avoid the wrath of the high court against mandating teaching about a creator or any supernatural cause. "

above quote from:
Creation and the Courts: Eighty Years of Conflict in the Classroom and the Courtroom
Copyright © 2007 by Norman L. Geisler

and some ID identified within science and within the realm of the laws of physics and other study and within the universe are such newer discoveries than Darwinism:

much peer review has been written in the last 5 years about human design, stellar design, and avian design:

Michael Denton peer review 2/25/13 in bio complexity
Denton
Denton
D. Halsmer, J. Asper, N. Roman & T. Todd peer review in the International Journal of Design & Nature and Ecodynamics at the Wessex Institute (2009)
The coherence of an engineered world
a summary review of this particular journal is found at evolutionnews.org:
Pro-Intelligent Design Peer Reviewed Scientific Paper Argues for an "Engineered World" - Evolution News & Views
A.C. McIntosh peer review in the International Journal of Design & Nature and Ecodynamics at the Wessex Institute [Vol.4, No.2 (2009) 154-169]
Evidence Of Design In Bird Feathers And Avian Respiration
a summary review of this particular journal is found at evolutionnews.org:
Peer-Reviewed Pro-Intelligent Design Article Endorses Irreducible Complexity - Evolution News & Views
McIntosh has published other pro-ID peer-reviewed scientific literature, evolutionnews.org has reviewed here: Peer-Reviewed Paper Investigating Origin of Information Endorses Irreducible Complexity and Intelligent Design - Evolution News & Views
 
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createdtoworship

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Sorry yes, 6-7 K years ago is what you stated earlier.

No comment again on the human chromosome 2 fusion?

Evidence for Evolution - Analysis of Human Chromosome 2 pt1 - YouTube

Evidence for Evolution - Analysis of Human Chromosome 2 pt2 - YouTube

please give a summary of your argument for chromosome 2 fusion and how it is an evidence for macro evolution. Because macro evolution is of late, unobserved and unscientific as a result. Macro evolution as being defined by university sites such as berkley, as "above the level of species" so instead of speciation simply creating new species, it would in essence be creating a larger scale evolution of creating new genra.
 
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createdtoworship

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gradyll, since you Godwinized the thread I guess I can now safely remind you that Hitler was a Christian and that the works of Darwin were banned in Nazi Germany.

see my other post on forfeiting salvation (hebrews 6'1-6). secondly, christianity has nothing to do with theistic evolutionism. IF anything those of the evolutionary mindset must bend the Bible to match existing preconceptions of evolution. But Christianity itself, myself being a part of....is not associated with evolution. It is associated with the Bible. Now don't get me wrong theistic evolutionists can be saved, but that doesn't mean that then necessarily are, or that they view the Bible literally in salvific sections, namely the resurrection, original sin, and other doctrines relating to salvation. So now that I have answered your misconceptions, how do you view the fact that Hitler was an evolutionist?

Also: Godwins law, is not a historical premise, it's just the opinion of godwin himself. I could compare naziism to naziism under the same premise. IT simply like quote mining, it does not exist.
 
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createdtoworship

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gradyll, since you Godwinized the thread I guess I can now safely remind you that Hitler was a Christian and that the works of Darwin were banned in Nazi Germany.
hitler was christian? well even so it is difficult to say if he truly trusted christ, also I believe one may forfeit salvation through persisyent unrepentive sin. which the holocaust would qualify. see hebrews 6:1-6 in the holy bible.

that may be true that Darwin was banned in germany, however much regarding darwins ethics and world view led up to nazism.

I would like to point you to a misconception site, where the author does away with many misconceptions taught by talk origins and others:


https://archive.csustan.edu/History/Faculty/Weikart/response-to-critics.htm

secondly you didn't source or cite the idea that darwinism was illegal. What are your sources for this?

I am not disputing it, but it appears this is not material one would know off hand. Even then it is good to source ideas to avoid plaigerizing of ideas. Not a word for word plaigerizing but stealing ideas from a site, then not posting it for a fear of reprisal over sources.
 
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Naturalism

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please give a summary of your argument for chromosome 2 fusion and how it is an evidence for macro evolution.

The summary is right there, the 2 7 minute videos.

You also should be kind and comment on what you think a "solid link" would be for such macro evolution. If you're not be open and candid with an objective amount of evidence that would be compelling than I am afraid nothing would be convincing.
 
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Naturalism

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I guess you all are too shocked about the links of Darwin and Hitler to comment?. I think you missed my numerous posts of quotes regarding evolutions, Hitler association.

It's a red herring, not really related to if the model of ToE is right or not.
 
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createdtoworship

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I am on my phone cant watch video but macro evolution would ne for example a whale to a dog like creature transition that proves common ancestry to both the whale and the dog. taking as many transitional steps as needed. and as much time as needed to evolve. or a ape to human transition with proven ancestry. ot a dinasaur to bird transition. any would suffice.
 
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StormanNorman

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Darwin came up with a scientific theory, grady .... that's all it is. And either it is true or it's not true. It is not a statement about morals and how we should treat each other. The idea that it can be blamed for nazism is completely asinine .... just as asinine as blaming the Bible for all the burnings, torture, etc.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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my link proved that we are more similiar to cats than apes using erv and genome studies. so have you started looking for feline-human transitions yet? I rest my case.

Your case is as sturdy as a sandcastle so I wouldn't rest too hard upon it. You're mistaken. You are going to read and interpret information through the lenses you choose. If I felt like you were actually a willing learner I'd but forth effort to explain some of your misassumptions here, but you're impervious to knowledge that conflicts with what you want to believe and it's the final days of summer break for me. I am not squandering time on this again.

besides you entire argument is an appeal to authority which is a fallacy.

Have you ever seen the 1990s movie "Reality Bites"? If you haven't, Netflix it. There's a scene where a brand-new college grad is asked to define irony, and she blanks. That scene just played in my head when I read this part of your post.

Things are not right or wrong on the basis of who says them, it is on the basis of supporting premises being valid.

You can copy and paste quotes and information to create a case to support whatever agenda you choose, even if it's contrary to the work of the quoted people. That's one of the complaints scientists have made against Creationist sites who've taken their work out of context and contorted and convoluted it. That's why at school we're taught how to distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate online resources for our work, not just for science but for all other subjects. You're an adult who thinks that posts from forums about European Trivia & History and conspiracy theory sites count as valid resources when discussing science. And when things don't go your way in a debate you resort to employing the lamest diversionary move ever, Godwin's Law. As a FYI, that's tantamount to waving the white flag and admitting you've got nothing of merit, no thought ammo left, and so you need to strut out Hitler to try to distract everyone. No, dude, no one here is shocked in the least about the tiresomely overdone Creationist nonsensical propaganda regarding Hitler and evolution. Why not try blaming 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina on evolution and see if you have any better luck?

"Cats have 90% of homologous genes with humans, 82% with dogs, 80% with cows, 79% with chimpanzees, 69% with rats and 67% with mice. "

I know you don't bother reading the sources others provide for you, but do you even read through your own sources? This is the sentence above the line you quoted from the dubious Europedia Forum:
- Chimpanzees are 96% to 98% similar to humans, depending on how it is calculated. (source)

This is what I mean about selective copy and pasting.
 
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When Books Burn: Lists of Banned Books, 1933-1939
See #6

The US Holocaust Museum in DC also has a list of banned books that includes Darwin's. I have no idea if there is a link for that online but if you're in the DC area go look for yourself. The Jewish Museum of Berlin has an exhibition on banned books and includes Darwin's work as well. The Nazi's also banned Albert Einstein's Theory of Relativity. Jewish Museum Berlin - Special Exhibition: Bambi and the Theory of Relativity. Books on the Nazi Pyre.

Should all books that were influential to Hitler be banned, or should we simply realize that it was Hitler who committed his atrocities and his reading materials were not culpable?
Hitler's Bedtime Reading - The Daily Beast
 
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