Why don't we, as Protestants, believe in these things too?

[GigageiTsula]

If you were to venture over to the OBOB or even dare venture into the General Theology forum, you would find innumerable threads about Catholicism: what the Catholics believe/what they don't believe and why they believe as they do. There are threads attempting to discredit the Catholic Church and its beliefs. There are threads accusing Catholics of this, that, or the other. Now I took the opportunity to question Catholic beliefs myself via posting in the OBOB. As a matter of fact, I started my own thread there, Questions I would like to ask Catholics. It has been a rather civil and delightful discussion about why Catholics believe as they do. The first question I asked was about their belief in purgatory. Although many Catholics of the OBOB answered my questions, even using Scriptures to validate their beliefs, I still don't believe there is such a place. Now I want to know if you, as a Protestant, believe that there is such a place as purgatory, and if not exactly the same way Catholics believe in it, but something similar to it. I'm just simply curious why Protestants (Wesleyan especially) do not/refuse to believe in a purgatory. What I would like to find is do we really differ that much from our Catholic brethren. Do we have more similarities than we're aware of? Any thoughts?

 

[Historicus]

Wesley believed that there is an intermediate state - he didn't call it purgatory though. The belief in purgatory developed over time and isn't accepted by the Eastern Orthodox either.

We agree 100% with the Catholic Church on the "essentials" of the Christian faith. We confess the same creeds. On "non-essentials" we do disagree, but even there the differences aren't that great in many things. We're more of a "via media" or middle way between Protestant and Catholic since we descend from Anglicanism, not Protestantism (began by Luther's Reformation).

 

[Qyöt27]

I don't think Wesleyans especially don't believe in purgatory, compared to other Protestants. The Article which mentions it actually seems to show exactly the reason it was rejected - it was a belief deemed too 'Catholic', and at that time period, Protestants were very anti-Catholic (understatement, I know). It seems somewhat strange now, of course, seeing as how the UMC is one of the least anti-Catholic and more ecumenical denoms (the Confirmation class I was in even attended Mass one week), but that wasn't the case in the 1700s.

I actually think the idea of purgatory makes perfect sense within the framework it's given in Catholicism, and remain rather ambivalent on the subject. If that's what awaits, then that's that. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

 

[Mr Dave]

As Wesley says, we share all the core essentials of faith with the Roman Catholic Church.

Me personally, I believe that 'Hell' is much closer to Purgatory than the conventional belief in 'Hell'. Across the theology forums here I've made no secret of the fact that I reject the belief in eternal punishment and believe that 'Hell' is probably a place of purification. I don't hold to the same views as the RCC though (I don't think that those who are in Christ go there, this is where the big sticking point between us prots and RCCs is I think).

Unfortunately Methodism doesn't say much about it. There's nothing in the Catechism on it.

 

[Gregory Eugene]

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The bible says that Jesus Christ's death on the cross was the sacrifice that was enough to reunite us with God the father. Nothing we do can make that better

Galatians 2:16
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

The very idea of a need for purgatory is a direct violation of what Christ's blood acomplished on the cross.

 

[AlexBP]

Now I want to know if you, as a Protestant, believe that there is such a place as purgatory, and if not exactly the same way Catholics believe in it, but something similar to it. I'm just simply curious why Protestants (Wesleyan especially) do not/refuse to believe in a purgatory.

I'm personally not sure how I'd answer that question at the moment. However, I do think it's worth mentioning the origins of the Catholic concept of Purgatory. The first to propose the idea was Saint Augustine. (Or at least if anyone proposed it earlier I'm not aware of that.) Augustine did not firmly believe in Purgatory. Instead he merely hypothesized that there might be state of being wherein some of those who died were purged of sinfulness before they could be admitted to paradise. He certainly did not affirm that Purgatory had to exist.

However, Augustine's thought held such strong sway in the fifth and sixth centuries that someone his hypothesis got transformed into certainty. The concept of Purgatory was further buttressed by supposed visions of souls who had died returning and announcing that they'd spent some time in Purgatory before the prayers of those on Earth helped set them free. So the concept wasn't really founded on a firm theological basis.

 

[Maid Marie]

Simply, I have never felt led in all my praying and searching for God's take on this to investigate or believe in Purgatory. A subjective answer I know but there it is.

 

[JCFantasy23]

If you were to venture over to the OBOB or even dare venture into the General Theology forum, you would find innumerable threads about Catholicism: what the Catholics believe/what they don't believe and why they believe as they do. There are threads attempting to discredit the Catholic Church and its beliefs. There are threads accusing Catholics of this, that, or the other. Now I took the opportunity to question Catholic beliefs myself via posting in the OBOB. As a matter of fact, I started my own thread there, Questions I would like to ask Catholics. It has been a rather civil and delightful discussion about why Catholics believe as they do. The first question I asked was about their belief in purgatory. Although many Catholics of the OBOB answered my questions, even using Scriptures to validate their beliefs, I still don't believe there is such a place. Now I want to know if you, as a Protestant, believe that there is such a place as purgatory, and if not exactly the same way Catholics believe in it, but something similar to it. I'm just simply curious why Protestants (Wesleyan especially) do not/refuse to believe in a purgatory. What I would like to find is do we really differ that much from our Catholic brethren. Do we have more similarities than we're aware of? Any thoughts?

To me, Purgatory makes little sense. I too have read some of the points on it. It seems to me that if a place existed Jesus would have mentioned it often, or at least more. I can't match the idea of purgatory with biblical teachings. I'm not saying there isn't something we don't know that goes on when we die, or that there is nothing that God does to continue to purify, but from what I surmise from scripture, Purgatory as it stands seems far-fetched. Also, toss in the Indulgences and that's REALLY far-fetched.

 

[GigageiTsula]

The second question I asked was please explain why Catholics believe Mary was born without sin. I asked for Scripture first and then other sources after that. I had one Catholic member tell me that if scripture is my only justification for stuff, then I'm going to find my faith sorely lacking in many ways. He then said he understood, coming from a Protestant background, that it was sort of a comfort thing. What other justification for our faith is there other than the Word of God?

 

[Mr Dave]

The second question I asked was please explain why Catholics believe Mary was born without sin. I asked for Scripture first and then other sources after that. I had one Catholic member tell me that if scripture is my only justification for stuff, then I'm going to find my faith sorely lacking in many ways. He then said he understood, coming from a Protestant background, that it was sort of a comfort thing. What other justification for our faith is there other than the Word of God?

Firstly, I would say that the Bible isn't the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. Technicality aside though, our faith can come through, Tradition (thoughts of Christians through the ages, other writings on Christian themes, hymns etc...), our own experiences we have with God (in our own private time with God, in church, whenever really). God can work through anything to help our faith, although all things must run in line with scripture. The Methodist Church of Great Britain | The Methodist quadrilateral

 

[JCFantasy23]

The second question I asked was please explain why Catholics believe Mary was born without sin. I asked for Scripture first and then other sources after that. I had one Catholic member tell me that if scripture is my only justification for stuff, then I'm going to find my faith sorely lacking in many ways. He then said he understood, coming from a Protestant background, that it was sort of a comfort thing. What other justification for our faith is there other than the Word of God?

Mary was an amazing woman. I don't think anyone would dispute that. She was special, but I'm not sure why some people seem to want to think things to keep her special. She was just special. Some people of the bible had God's special favor - Abraham, Moses, David, Essau. None was sinless. The scriptures teach no human is sinless. Likewise, there is no sin or anything wrong with having sex with your husband through marriage. Not sure if Mary did that after having Jesus, but if so, this does not make her less special. There's no way to know what made her so special in God's eyes, although I doubt it was because she was sinless. I think she had an unusually pure heart or something such as that.

 

[Basil the Great]

Wesley believed that there is an intermediate state - he didn't call it purgatory though. The belief in purgatory developed over time and isn't accepted by the Eastern Orthodox either.

We agree 100% with the Catholic Church on the "essentials" of the Christian faith. We confess the same creeds. On "non-essentials" we do disagree, but even there the differences aren't that great in many things. We're more of a "via media" or middle way between Protestant and Catholic since we descend from Anglicanism, not Protestantism (began by Luther's Reformation).

I was raised Methodist and never knew that Wesley believed in an intermediate state. Strangely enough though, I also believe in an intermediate state. However, I tend to think that the Eastern Orthodox view is more accurate than the RCC view in this regard. I do wish that Anglicans and Methodists would begin praying for the dead. I am not sure how much said prayers would help, but they sure would not hurt.

 

[JasoNnnN]

Also, many of the notable people in the bible were hardly special. God chooses the foolish things of this world remember!

 

[seeking_perfection]

Hi,

Firstly, I hope you don't mind me posting in your sub-forum but thought I'd add some perspective if that's ok.

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The bible says that Jesus Christ's death on the cross was the sacrifice that was enough to reunite us with God the father. Nothing we do can make that better

Galatians 2:16
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

The very idea of a need for purgatory is a direct violation of what Christ's blood acomplished on the cross.

As an Anglican, I do believe in an Intermediate State. I think the problem that many protestants have is that Jesus died 'once, for all'. I don't think that believing in an Intermediate State contradicts this. Christ's death enables us to be justified before God. However, we may not be completely sanctified during this life and Purgatory provides a place where those who are justified by grace can complete their sanctification.

To think of it another way...

Despite not being perfect (completely sanctified), do I hope to make it to heaven? YES.

Is there a good chance that, although justified, I will die before I attain perfection? YES

Can anything that is not perfect abide in Heaven? NO

Am I in need of some intermediate state in which, being already justified, I may completely remove the stain of sin and attain complete sanctification? YES

I hope this makes sense. God bless!

 

[Gregory Eugene]

Hi,

To think of it another way...

Despite not being perfect (completely sanctified), do I hope to make it to heaven? YES.

Is there a good chance that, although justified, I will die before I attain perfection? YES

Can anything that is not perfect abide in Heaven? NO

Am I in need of some intermediate state in which, being already justified, I may completely remove the stain of sin and attain complete sanctification? YES

I hope this makes sense. God bless!

It makes tons of sense, the only problem is that it's not biblical. The bible says that When Jesus makes us clean, we're clean. 1 Corinthians, Chapter 13 makes it clear that no person is fully sanctified until going to heaven, but it doesn't mention a need for an intermediate state.

Wesley believed in an intermediate state for the same reason most do, we have a hard time accepting what the bible says without scrutinizing it and figuring it out logistically. All through out the bible God's people follow seemingly ridiculous plans that God uses for victory without his people fully understanding. The walls of Jericho the 300 soldiers of Gideon, Elijah and the woman. In the book of Job we all know why Job was tested, Satan challenged God and God used the opportunity to grow closer to Job. But Job never got that information. God left him without an answer so he could accept God's will on faith.

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[seeking_perfection]

It makes tons of sense, the only problem is that it's not biblical.

I take issue with this (obviously ). While you may not agree with the explanation of scripture, it doesn't mean there's nothing in scripture that points to an intermediate state. I'll roll out the old case of the Trinity. Not explicitly written but its pointed to in the bible.

Release the scripture quotes!! (and yes, I have copied this from a website but it doesn't make it any less valid).

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti&#8221 generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Once again, you may not agree with the interpretation, but the list above shows that there is definitely scripture which points/can be interpreted as pointing to a place where those who, justified by grace alone due to the sacrifice of Christ, may complete their sanctification before reaching heaven. Now how this completion of sanctification is achieved...thats another argument.

Again, I do not wish to overstay my welcome. If you wish me to leave, only say the word.

 

[GigageiTsula]

Just a friendly reminder: There is no debating allowed here by members of other denominations.

 

[seeking_perfection]

I am aware I was straying rather close. However, in my defence, I would say (and have said several times) that I am not debating your denomination's interpretation. Rather, I am providing scriptural quotes to aid discussion and prove that an intepretation (whether right or wrong) in favour of an intermediate state is possible. I think this is only fair as Wesley also believed in an intermediate state (and presumably had scriptural quotes to back it up).

I hope this is allowed but I will not post any further unless asked.

 

[lucaspa]

The second question I asked was please explain why Catholics believe Mary was born without sin. I asked for Scripture first and then other sources after that.

Catholics seem to have added a lot of beliefs about Mary. I have also seen Catholics claim that Mary never, ever had sex and remained virgin for her entire life.

It seems to me (altho I have seen others state similar opinions) that Mary represents pagan female goddess. In the history of religion, there has always been tension between a patriarchal male god and the concept of deity as female. The female deity is often expressed as 3 parts: maiden, mother, and "crone" (wise old woman past sex). Judaism and Christianity in the first several centuries AD represents very much the patriarchal male view of deity. Even tho it should be obvious that God has no sex and is neither male nor female. So Mary may represent some leavening influence and trying to dilute the distortion of early Christianity as a definite male deity. The semi-deification of Mary is one reason I am not Catholic. But remember, choosing a denomination is often one of personal preference. As several people have forcefully stated, Catholics and Wesleyans agree on the essentials. In fact, Wesleyans derive from Anglicans who derived from Catholicism, and the split was not about the status of Mary or any major theological issue, but that Henry VIII wanted a divorce.

I had one Catholic member tell me that if scripture is my only justification for stuff, then I'm going to find my faith sorely lacking in many ways. He then said he understood, coming from a Protestant background, that it was sort of a comfort thing. What other justification for our faith is there other than the Word of God?

Here I agree with the Catholic. As Mr. Dave pointed out, the Word is Jesus, not scripture. Your statement represents the Westminster Confession, but that is part of the Reformed tradition, and Wesleyans do not belong to it.

Scripture is useful (as Paul put it in 2 Tim. 3:16), but Wesley and Wesleyans never believed it was inerrant or the sole source of justification. If we held to only scripture, we would not be Trinitarians. We would have supported slavery. We would not have participated in the Civil Rights movement nor in women's rights. We would not condone any divorce nor would any of us be anti-abortion. We would be anti-evolution.

Remember, Jesus lives. Therefore we can use our continuing relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit to give us guidance. We also have our reason and we have God's second book: Creation. All of these, including scripture, come into play as we make our choices.

 

[servant of Merciful Love]

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