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What’s wrong with praying to Jesus?Probably because they are following all of the instructions Jesus gave on how to pray and on what Jesus and Paul said about the Holy Spirit regarding prayer. Romans 8:26-27 seems to clearly state that the Holy Spirit interceeds for us as we pray to the Father. No one in scripture ever directs prayer to anyone other than the Father.
Yes, we know the trinity isn't a catholic thing. The point i'm trying to make where this, "catholic made, not in the bible" has lead to. Them being wrong about that is certain but this also the same with the sign of the cross, protestants don't do it because as you saw in some replies here "it's catholic made, not in the bible".
There's not anything wrong with it. But the Father is almost exclusively prayed to in scripture. So it's natural to follow that example if that's what you're used to. Personally I like calling God by all sorts of titles like Holy Lord, Blessed Savior and so on.What’s wrong with praying to Jesus?
You make a very valid point regarding "praise songs"; a little while back Lutheran Satire along with a celebrity facsimile explored "praise songs" and likewise, made good points as well:No. You are putting words in his mouth. He said "vain" repetitions, not repetitions were vain. This indicates that he was specific, not general. If he was general then he wouldn't teach his disciples the Lord's prayer. The Jews were never scolded for reciting the Psalms.
Look at your praise and worship songs during your service, you are repeating words to God over and over again just with background music to it. So you yourselves are committing this.
It's rather normal for christians to pray for something more than once, for example when a loved is ill, their family will pray for days for this person. The words maybe different, it could be paraphrased, but the point of the prayer is still the same making it still repetitive. People reuse the same lines of prays to God, "my God my savior" more than once in their life time, probably more than once a day in their prayers.. by your logic, all that should be wrong.
Who was Jesus' audience.No. You are putting words in his mouth. He said "vain" repetitions, not repetitions were vain. This indicates that he was specific, not general. If he was general then he wouldn't teach his disciples the Lord's prayer. The Jews were never scolded for reciting the Psalms.
Look at your praise and worship songs during your service, you are repeating words to God over and over again just with background music to it. So you yourselves are committing this.
It's rather normal for christians to pray for something more than once, for example when a loved is ill, their family will pray for days for this person. The words maybe different, it could be paraphrased, but the point of the prayer is still the same making it still repetitive. People reuse the same lines of prays to God, "my God my savior" more than once in their life time, probably more than once a day in their prayers.. by your logic, all that should be wrong.
Why did Jesus give these instructions? Because people in Judea were swearing by these things these were common practices and things held as wisdom in Jewish culture. Jesus was rebuking it.33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
again, He rebuked these practices because these are practices that were common in Judea. He would not be referring to people in Europe or Persia while talking to a group of people living in Judea.1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Preaching in His name, casting out devils in His name, and in His name doing many wonderful works......21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Who was Jesus' audience.
Jews
not heathens
Jews.
Why would He instruct them to not do something they already weren't doing?
I have anxiety disorders and when I’m having a panic attack I pray the repetitive prayer “God please make this go away” or some version of this, over and over. My priest/pastor told me there is nothing wrong with that.No. You are putting words in his mouth. He said "vain" repetitions, not repetitions were vain. This indicates that he was specific, not general. If he was general then he wouldn't teach his disciples the Lord's prayer. The Jews were never scolded for reciting the Psalms.
Look at your praise and worship songs during your service, you are repeating words to God over and over again just with background music to it. So you yourselves are committing this.
It's rather normal for christians to pray for something more than once, for example when a loved is ill, their family will pray for days for this person. The words maybe different, it could be paraphrased, but the point of the prayer is still the same making it still repetitive. People reuse the same lines of prays to God, "my God my savior" more than once in their life time, probably more than once a day in their prayers.. by your logic, all that should be wrong.
Why would you assume that Jews never prayed for power or control as the pagans did, or for the things that power and control bring? Your assumption is not found in the Bible. And again, "vain repetition" is not the same as "repetition," the Word of God should not be changed. Again, there is a difference, what is meant by "vain repetition?" Saint John Chrysostom (c. 347 – 14 September 407 AD) explained:
"But touching prayer, He adds somewhat over and above; not to use vain repetitions. And as there He derides the hypocrites, so here the heathen; shaming the hearer everywhere most of all by the vileness of the persons. For since this, in most cases, is especially biting and stinging, I mean our appearing to be likened to outcast persons; by this topic He dissuades them; calling frivolousness, here, by the name of vain repetition: as when we ask of God things unsuitable, kingdoms, and glory, and to get the better of enemies, and abundance of wealth, and in general what does not at all concern us."
CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 19 on Matthew (Chrysostom)
Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.www.newadvent.org
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who was Jesus' audience.
Jews
not heathens
Jews.
Why would He instruct them to not do something they already weren't doing?
No. Jesus was instructing them to not do something they WERE doing.
Just like in Jesus' other instructions in the Sermon on the Mount:
Why did Jesus give these instructions? Because people in Judea were swearing by these things these were common practices and things held as wisdom in Jewish culture. Jesus was rebuking it. again, He rebuked these practices because these are practices that were common in Judea. He would not be referring to people in Europe or Persia while talking to a group of people living in Judea.
These are common practices of the Jews. Jesus is rebuking those practices.
You are going to have to make sure your opening isn't "Heavenly Father, thank you for this day...." because that would be repetitive, you shouldn't go to church and sing a long to praise and worship songs, because those are just repetitive prayers/praises with music behind it.and no, simply praying to the true and living God or in His name does not make a repetition not vain.
doing works in His name's sake also doesn't necessarily make them not vain
Preaching in His name, casting out devils in His name, and in His name doing many wonderful works......
and they are in vain.
because no where in the bible does it say to do this, neither Jesus or the disciples did this, it is a man made tradition that is unnecessary."In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"
I wonder why Protestants do not do this? I know that it's not made a rule in scripture, but I feel it's a part of christian history that should never be broken. It shows that our faith was always the Trinity, despite the lies that many cults and other religions claim. For example, Islam, Jehovah's wittness, Iglesia Ni Cristo, Mormons, etc all claim an original Christian church that never believed in Christ's divinity or the Trinity, but this sign serves to be a historical remembrance that we always did.
The reason why I have made this question and why I ended up thinking that this gesture has to be universally expressed by christians is mainly because of my experience with christian cults. I've been to JW's and the Iglesia Ni Cristo services, and they are very frightening and disheartening.. and despite them teaching false things about the Bible and rejecting the divinity, they for some reason end their prayers with "In Jesus' name", the way protestants do.
These cults will never end with the sign of the cross, they will never say "the Father, Son, and HS" because they fully reject the truth of God. Because of this, I feel that the sign of the cross gesture has to be seen as important to protestants as well.
It is one of the traditions started during early christianity. You should read more, because the line you just gave is one of the seeds that started cults that completely deny the divinity of Jesus.. and you not doing the sign of the cross has made you more distant towards christianity and closer in communion to those cults.because no where in the bible does it say to do this, neither Jesus or the disciples did this, it is a man made tradition that is unnecessary.
That's not what a repetitive prayer is.Why would Jesus instruct a repetitive prayer 2 verses after if (according to you) he rebuked all repetitive prayer?
You are going to have to make sure your opening isn't "Heavenly Father, thank you for this day...." because that would be repetitive, you shouldn't go to church and sing a long to praise and worship songs, because those are just repetitive prayers/praises with music behind it.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Yes, it is totally ok because Mary and the saints are not God. It's just like when God said to make two cherubim of gold on top of the ark of covenant (just a few chapters after the 10 commandments), or when he wanted his cherubim statues around the walls of his temple (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27-29). This is one of the problems with Protestants, they see nothing wrong with picking and choosing verses and then leaving out everything else.This is one of the problems with Catholicism. They see nothing wrong with pagan-esque practices as long as you throw a Christian veneer over it.
But Jesus said there are even wonderful works done in His name, that are in vain.
Don't make graven images and bow before them
"But that just meant don't make images of false gods and bow before them", but somehow to them making graven images of the true God or saints, or Mary, and bowing before them.. totally okay.
What about the psalms? They were the same words prayed over and over? Most Jewish people pray with set prayers all throughout the day.That's not what a repetitive prayer is.
praying for the same thing every day is not what He meant
What He meant is repeating the same words multiple times within 1 prayer.
The Rosary is literally an example with all its Hail Mary's
If you can't distinguish a difference between opening a prayer with "Our Father" once in a prayer and 53 utterances of Hail Mary full of grace.... in a single prayer.. then we have basically a language barrier.
Now singing a song is not the same as saying a prayer. Songs are structured to have repeats of certain things obviously, and to some degree, the songs are more for us, to help us remember things because remembering something through a song can be easier than remembering something through just text.
But the Rosary is not a song, it's a prayer, it's a prayer with rote memorized parts that are repeated a number of times.
Now the prayer Jesus taught the apostles, what we refer to as the Lord's Prayer, can be said verbatim there's nothing wrong with it, but more so, Jesus was teaching them a structure what a prayer should be like
Matthew 6
The manner is Praise/Adoration first, because remember who you are speaking to, followed by submission to His will, and request for His will and His Kingdom (because without those things what's the point?), then the supplications, first to provide for our needs, as He has already promised, to forgive us for our sins, as He has already promised, and remembering the character in which He desires us to be, to also be forgivers, and then supplication for His protection, which He has already promised.. and finishing off with more praise.
but each line of praise is different.
He didn't structure it like the Rosary is structured, He didn't say it like
"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name. And lead us not into temptation. Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name. But deliver us from evil. Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name. For thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, for ever, Amen"
"Hallowed be thy name" is a true statement, it warrants being said. But repeating it set amounts of time accomplishes what? "they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
i love how you don't know anything about me and yet you're accusing me of not being close to Jesus and being closer to a cult because i don't do a catholic practice. do you see the error in what you just accused me of? There is an accuser and it's not Jesus fyiIt is one of the traditions started during early christianity. You should read more, because the line you just gave is one of the seeds that started cults that completely deny the divinity of Jesus.. and you not doing the sign of the cross has made you more distant towards christianity and closer in communion to those cults.
That's not what a repetitive prayer is.
But you said that the Jews were scolded for repetitive prayers such as the Psalms. Psalms means "hymn". If Jesus was rebuking the Jews, then wouldn't he rebuke you and other christians who sing "Still" from Hillsong (which is Psalms 46:10), or "Great is thy faithfulness..." which is from Lamentations 3:23?Now singing a song is not the same as saying a prayer. Songs are structured to have repeats of certain things obviously, and to some degree, the songs are more for us, to help us remember things because remembering something through a song can be easier than remembering something through just text.
Really, so why isn't Matt 6 just like this post of yours, if indeed that was just a format he was teaching?Jesus was teaching them a structure what a prayer should be like
Matthew 6
The manner is Praise/Adoration first, because remember who you are speaking to, followed by submission to His will, and request for His will and His Kingdom (because without those things what's the point?), then the supplications, first to provide for our needs, as He has already promised, to forgive us for our sins, as He has already promised, and remembering the character in which He desires us to be, to also be forgivers, and then supplication for His protection, which He has already promised.. and finishing off with more praise.
This is not how the Rosary is structured though, also is there a catholic prayer that has "hallowed be thy name", repeated over and over again such as how you have it? If not you are talking nonsense.He didn't structure it like the Rosary is structured, He didn't say it like
"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name. And lead us not into temptation. Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name. But deliver us from evil. Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name. For thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, Hallowed be thy name, for ever, Amen"
"Hallowed be thy name" is a true statement, it warrants being said. But repeating it set amounts of time accomplishes what? "they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
i love how you don't know anything about me and yet you're accusing me of not being close to Jesus and being closer to a cult because i don't do a catholic practice. do you see the error in what you just accused me of? There is an accuser and it's not Jesus fyi
with no attempt to backpedal on what you accused me of. awesome.Catholic practice? Well that has been the debate here.
If you have time, check this link out
Why You Should NOT Make the Sign of the Cross
Not all Christian religions use the sign of the cross, so why make the gesture? What is the meaning of it and is making the sign of the cross Biblical?incmedia.org
But, He did. He said "After this manner" That is, "Pray in a manner like this" He didn't say "repeat this prayer" He said "after this manner" and then gave an example.But you said that the Jews were scolded for repetitive prayers such as the Psalms. Psalms means "hymn". If Jesus was rebuking the Jews, then wouldn't he rebuke you and other christians who sing "Still" from Hillsong (which is Psalms 46:10), or "Great is thy faithfulness..." which is from Lamentations 3:23?
Really, so why isn't Matt 6 just like this post of yours, if indeed that was just a format he was teaching?
In Matthew 6:9 he says: “Pray in this way", and then gave the prayer. If he was just giving out a structure, then Matt 6 would just be written the same way as what you have here.
No it's not ego. Jesus taught not to pray with a bunch of vain repetitions, and gave an example how to pray, and note it didn't have a bunch of repeats in it. It was simple, and short, and to the point.Bro, just look at what you are doing already. You are putting your own words in the Bible just to build a narrative against the Catholic church. If you are going this far by making your own meanings from verses and also from Jesus' own words, you are practically replying out of ego now and not for any form of truth.
Point flew over your head. The point was Jesus taught a short, simple and to the point prayer, without a bunch of repetitions in the prayer. I added repetitions to that prayer to give an example of what NOT to do.This is not how the Rosary is structured though, also is there a catholic prayer that has "hallowed be thy name", repeated over and over again such as how you have it? If not you are talking nonsense.
Hail, Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
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