Why doesn't God do what it would take to get atheists to believe he exists?

gordRedeemed said:

Who said anything about Jesus not being right?!

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For myself specifically, the question is not whether Jesus was right, it is whether the gospels accurately portray his life, what he said and what he did. In my study of biblical scholars and historians, I have serious doubt the gospels are an accurate portrayal of Jesus.

With that said, I think it is highly likely Jesus was a real person, Jesus was baptized, Jesus had followers and Jesus was crucified. Beyond that, it gets real dicey, from a historical credibility standpoint.

rick357 said:

Me stupid believe big God. You big smart but can not stop thoughts from coming to mind thought come you think so free will not happen so think what you realy believe cant escape so accept

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You lost me. That didn't make a lot of sense.

Fair enough good sir!

Originally Posted by bhsmte

TheyCallMeDavid said:

So, do you still believe in Christs resurrection ?

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Yes sir I do.

Freewill ~* God blessed us all with free will. To think, choose and act for ourselves. With that said, we face the consequences for our thoughts, choices and actions. Thus, if we choose to be a non believer, indeed, it offends God and we will be held accountable for that choice.

SURRENDER01 said:

Freewill ~* God blessed us all with free will. To think, choose and act for ourselves. With that said, we face the consequences for our thoughts, choices and actions. Thus, if we choose to be a non believer, indeed, it offends God and we will be held accountable for that choice.

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That sounds like a bad idea. While I don't see us as puppets on a string or anything one must see that God will elect who he wills. For if God did not choose some, heaven would have none.

Angelquill said:

Psychiatry, as you probably know, is not considered "an exact science". Amazing that we have doctors who can perform complex brain surgery, but we can't seem to cure mental illness. Oh, we can medicate...sometimes. However, there is very little chance that once a patient is on medication, that he will ever be able to come off of it. If we can do delicate and complex surgery on the brain, why can't we get those pesky chemicals in proper balance, so that the mentally ill patient can be "normal" (whatever that means) without having to rely on medication that often has some rather dangerous side-effects?

Why is that?

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Being in healthcare for over 20 years, I can tell you this; medicine cures very few diseases. Why? Many diseases are genetically linked and you can not change a persons genetics. Furthermore, environment can impact the physiological mechanisms of organs and when this happens, very difficult to reverse.

What we can do, is control diseases, so people can live a fairly normal life, with the disease still present.

In regards to psychology, yes, it is less understood and less objective than other parts of medicine, but we have come a long way in understanding the mind, in regards to how one believes in what they do and why.

Psychology of belief, is a fairly well researched phenomenon and is fascinating to learn about.

TheyCallMeDavid said:

Originally Posted by bhsmte

Objective evidence that is verifiable, does not point directly to any God. 'Many have tried to claim this and they have all fallen short when challenged'

RESPONSE : Absolutely wrong. All of the modern sciences point not only to a personal theistic Creator but to the God of the Bible in particular. Even famous AGNOSTIC astronomer , Prof. Robert Jastrow founder of NASA's Goddard Institute , said in his book that " all of science is leading to the biblical Creator ; science has scaled the mountain walls of ignorance and as they reach the top they pull themselves over only to be greeted by a band of Theologians that have been sitting there for centuries reading : In The Beginning God Creator the Heavens and the Earth." And this from a prestigious agnostic Scientist.

The issue is : Not many willful Unbelievers are willing to take the time or have the inclination toward learning the scientific evidences that are readily available to anyone who desires it. Instead, they spend all their time maintaining their status quo of ignorance because the truth might not be palatable to their apriori-philosophical bias (an atheistic worldview / origins) nor their quest to live according to their own authority instead of a surrender to the very Creator of the Cosmos who is personal .


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If what you say is true, modern science has come to provide evidence of a theistic creator, why is it, that those individuals who know science better than anyone (PHD level scientists), believe in a theistic creator at such a low rate compared to the general population? You would think if science provides the evidence, they would be more aware of it than anyone.

Also, why is belief in a God and Christianity in general, declining and has been for decades? If science has provided evidence to prove a theistic creator, this makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

gordRedeemed said:

That sounds like a bad idea. While I don't see us as puppets on a string or anything one must see that God will elect who he wills. For if God did not choose some, heaven would have none.

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Not here to debate. But I will say one thing before I leave this post. Key word for this post is ALL.We are all blessed/have with free will. Some of use it for good and some of us humans use it for evil. Some of us take it and make good decisions with it and some of us make bad ones too. We all have free will to do as we please. We just have to remember CONSEQUENCES.If one does not want to believe in God..his/her choice. HAVE AVERY BLESSED DAY my friend !

~ Kelly

bhsmte said:

You lost me. That didn't make a lot of sense.

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I am sorry it did not make sense but what can be expected from one who can not be analytical objective or think critically and who lacks the ability for higher education. My point is you do not controll what thoughts come into your mind so free thought is not a truth if this is so free will is not true because you are limited by how you have proccessed what has come to your mind also all future information is now filtered by your original thought making your conception flawed against the original preception that being said one can not think themselves into a belief system. You believe what you believe. So what is the point. It is in this you must discover what you believe. Where do your thoughts come from perhaps your subconscious if that exist or perhaps something acting on you that is unpercieved by you.that being unsettled what do you believe. If you believe athiesm is true and those who believe otherwise to be less able to "think" why seek them out to debate them. If one believed sticking dirt in thier ear made them smart I would not seek them out to debate. This brings us to this either your " subconscious" is leading you to a place suxh as this because you believe it is true or some unpercieved force outside of you. Either way you must find what you believe or you cannot be who you are. This would leave you saying one thing while not being able to accept it and that is miserable.

bhsmte said:

If what you say is true, modern science has come to provide evidence of a theistic creator, why is it, that those individuals who know science better than anyone (PHD level scientists), believe in a theistic creator at such a low rate compared to the general population? You would think if science provides the evidence, they would be more aware of it than anyone.

Also, why is belief in a God and Christianity in general, declining and has been for decades? If science has provided evidence to prove a theistic creator, this makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

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What I said is true, and what countless scientists of an agnostic and theistic persuasion said, is true. Quotes from Scientists Regarding Design of the Universe

To your questions :

a. Provide a citation please., because the amount of agnostic Scientists are dropping like flies especially in the field of Cosmology. MANY PHD award winning Cosmologists like Dr. Robert Jastrow, Prof. Alan Sandage who discovered the Universe was and is expanding , Prof's Penzias and Wilson who got prestigious awards for discovering the Radiation Echo from the initial creation singularity, world reknown Physicist Sir Fred Hoyle, et al....have all switched to Theism. World reknown atheist Philosopher Prof. Anthony Flew whos atheist books strongly influence Richard Dawkins converted from being an atheist all this life , to theism because the scientific and historical evidence was so incredibly compelling -- this was a move that stunned the Atheist Community. For the agnostic Scientists remaining, they know of the evidences in their particular Field of Study for intelligent design and irreducible complexity ... but as famous evolutionist Yale Professor Richard Lewontin declared....'we must not allow a divine foot in the door' after giving a speech on the lack of compelling evidence for Darwinnian Evolution and a Material Universe : .http://creation.com/amazing-admission-lewontin-quote . Yes...even notable well paid Men in White Coats have an issue with pride and an unwillingness to admit the most obvious of all things : A personal theistic Creator. This should come as no surprise. The Bible speaks of the willful ignorance and suppression of the truth with such 'wise' people .

b. The Bible specifically addresses that in the latter times of history, MANY will fall away from the Christian Faith / Theism and embrace foolish ideas and philosophies which are deceptive and untrue . The Bible even predicted macro evolution as an example (without using that specific term) . The reason The Christian Faith is declining isn't because it isn't true, rather, its because competing speculations are capturing the hearts of those who are willfully ignorant or immature / their fleshly desires outweigh their desire to pursue God their Creator / they never had a genuine faith and surrender to God in the first place and only were going thru the mechanical motions of church attendance / they never went deeper to discover a deeper substance to their faith in regards to the scientific evidences and historical credibility of Jesus dying and resurrecting / and the dark Principalities , Powers, Seducing Spirits , etc..(Evil) has lured them away from the truth of God . As for belief in God as the personal theistic Creator....at least 90% of all Americans say they believe in that today ..... but the majority aren't willing to go the next step of moving closer to God . That is a human depravity problem , and not because the truth about Gods cant be known and not because of the compelling evidences that a creation as ours requires a personal intelligent Designer , Creator, Sustainer . Most people are simply too self centered and concerned with the mantra of 'going for the gusto in life' rather than a focus on THE most important issue, ever (The Creator) .

HOW willing and deep are you willing to go ?

rick357 said:

I am sorry it did not make sense but what can be expected from one who can not be analytical objective or think critically and who lacks the ability for higher education. My point is you do not controll what thoughts come into your mind so free thought is not a truth if this is so free will is not true because you are limited by how you have proccessed what has come to your mind also all future information is now filtered by your original thought making your conception flawed against the original preception that being said one can not think themselves into a belief system. You believe what you believe. So what is the point. It is in this you must discover what you believe. Where do your thoughts come from perhaps your subconscious if that exist or perhaps something acting on you that is unpercieved by you.that being unsettled what do you believe. If you believe athiesm is true and those who believe otherwise to be less able to "think" why seek them out to debate them. If one believed sticking dirt in thier ear made them smart I would not seek them out to debate. This brings us to this either your " subconscious" is leading you to a place suxh as this because you believe it is true or some unpercieved force outside of you. Either way you must find what you believe or you cannot be who you are. This would leave you saying one thing while not being able to accept it and that is miserable.

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My point was simple and I think you are making more of it.

It has been established, that analytical critical type thinkers are more prone to be non-believers and intuitive thinkers are more likely to be believers. Some people have a higher threshold of evidence before they believe a certain thing than others and it is driven by how we are wired and life experiences.

Is one better than the other? It all depends how one uses their thinking ability and what they are trying to accomplish.

If a person is motivated to think analytically, objectively in seeking truths, that is what is best for them. If another, goes more the intuitive route, than that is what is best for that person. If faith beliefs are used in a positive way and make someone a better person, than they should keep doing what they are doing, because they have found what is right for them.

TheyCallMeDavid said:

What I said is true, and what countless scientists of an agnostic and theistic persuasion said, is true. Quotes from Scientists Regarding Design of the Universe

To your questions :

a. Provide a citation please., because the amount of agnostic Scientists are dropping like flies especially in the field of Cosmology. MANY PHD award winning Cosmologists like Dr. Robert Jastrow, Prof. Alan Sandage who discovered the Universe was and is expanding , Prof's Penzias and Wilson who got prestigious awards for discovering the Radiation Echo from the initial creation singularity, world reknown Physicist Sir Fred Hoyle, et al....have all switched to Theism. For the agnostic Scientists remaining, they know of the evidences in their particular Field of Study for intelligent design and irreducible complexity ... but as famous evolutionist Yale Professor Richard Lewontin declared....'we must not allow a divine foot in the door' after giving a speech on the lack of compelling evidence for Darwinnian Evolution and a Material Universe : .Amazing admission - Lewontin Quote - creation.com . Yes...even notable well paid Men in White Coats have an issue with pride and an unwillingness to admit the most obvious of all things : A personal theistic Creator. This should come as no surprise. The Bible speaks of the willful ignorance and suppression of the truth with such 'wise' people .

b. The Bible specifically addresses that in the latter times of history, MANY will fall away from the Christian Faith / Theism and embrace foolish ideas and philosophies which are deceptive and untrue . The Bible even predicted macro evolution as an example (without using that specific term) . The reason The Christian Faith is declining isn't because it isn't true, rather, its because competing speculations are capturing the hearts of those who are willfully ignorant or immature / their fleshly desires outweigh their desire to pursue God their Creator / they never had a genuine faith and surrender to God in the first place and only were going thru the mechanical motions of church attendance / they never went deeper to discover a deeper substance to their faith in regards to the scientific evidences and historical credibility of Jesus dying and resurrecting / and the dark Principalities , Powers, Seducing Spirits , etc..(Evil) has lured them away from the truth of God . As for belief in God as the personal theistic Creator....at least 90% of all Americans say they believe in that today ..... but the majority aren't willing to go the next step of moving closer to God . That is a human depravity problem , and not because the truth about Gods cant be known and not because of the compelling evidences that a creation as ours requires a personal intelligent Designer , Creator, Sustainer . Most people are simply too self centered and concerned with the mantra of 'going for the gusto in life' rather than a focus on THE most important issue, ever (The Creator) .

HOW willing and deep are you willing to go ?

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There are always going to be high level scientists who believe, that goes without saying, because that is what they have chosen and is right for them. Nothing wrong with that.

That fact is, as you get to the elite scientist level believers are far lower than in the general population. The other fact is, belief in a God in general and in Christianity, has been declining in the world and in the United States for decades. Explaining this away by saying the bible says this will happen doesn't explain what is motivating these people to move away from the belief. Do you actually think, people that move away from Christianity say to themselves; the bible says people will fall away, so I guess it is time for me to do so?

http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/

bhsmte said:

Being in healthcare for over 20 years, I can tell you this; medicine cures very few diseases. Why? Many diseases are genetically linked and you can not change a persons genetics. Furthermore, environment can impact the physiological mechanisms of organs and when this happens, very difficult to reverse.

What we can do, is control diseases, so people can live a fairly normal life, with the disease still present.

In regards to psychology, yes, it is less understood and less objective than other parts of medicine, but we have come a long way in understanding the mind, in regards to how one believes in what they do and why.

Psychology of belief, is a fairly well researched phenomenon and is fascinating to learn about.

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Interesting. So, when I take my kid to you, and you prescribe an antibiotic, and, in a few days, his fever goes down and he's eating and playing outside...the medicine didn't cure him? So, if I had not taken him to you, the fever would have just "gone away" all on it's own, I suppose.
We've all heard about those crazy parents who rely on prayer to help their stricken child, and how, too often, those kids die without medical help. Your assertion that medicine doesn't cure disease makes no sense to me.
Of course, there are diseases that it can't cure, we all know that. I am 63 years old...these days when I go to the doc, it's a much deeper issue than it was a couple of short decades ago...and I suspect that, in a few more decades, if God lets me live so long, it will become even more serious.
There doesn't seem to be a medical "cure" for old age

Angelquill said:

Interesting. So, when I take my kid to you, and you prescribe an antibiotic, and, in a few days, his fever goes down and he's eating and playing outside...the medicine didn't cure him? So, if I had not taken him to you, the fever would have just "gone away" all on it's own, I suppose.
We've all heard about those crazy parents who rely on prayer to help their stricken child, and how, too often, those kids die without medical help. Your assertion that medicine doesn't cure disease makes no sense to me.
Of course, there are diseases that it can't cure, we all know that. I am 63 years old...these days when I go to the doc, it's a much deeper issue than it was a couple of short decades ago...and I suspect that, in a few more decades, if God lets me live so long, it will become even more serious.
There doesn't seem to be a medical "cure" for old age

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Do you think every kid with a fever 100 years ago was prescribed antibiotics? The answer is no, they didn't exist, but in most cases the bodies own immune system would fight off the infection. Granted, antibiotics have dramatically decreased the death rate from infection, but most people who got infections before antibiotics recovered on their own, otherwise, humans would have become extinct a long time ago.

Now, an infection which causes a fever, is not a disease, it is an infection and is not triggered by genetic predisposition to a disease. The antibiotic, kills the infection, that has temporarily invaded the body.

Diseases such as; heart disease, cancer, diabetes, mental illness and a whole host of others, are not cured, they are controlled, either with surgical procedures and or medication.

bhsmte said:

There are always going to be high level scientists who believe, that goes without saying, because that is what they have chosen and is right for them. Nothing wrong with that.

That fact is, as you get to the elite scientist level believers are far lower than in the general population. The other fact is, belief in a God in general and in Christianity, has been declining in the world and in the United States for decades. Explaining this away by saying the bible says this will happen doesn't explain what is motivating these people to move away from the belief. Do you actually think, people that move away from Christianity say to themselves; the bible says people will fall away, so I guess it is time for me to do so?

Scientists and Belief | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

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I did list the personal motives for people leaving the Christian Faith in practical terms, and, I only mentioned what the Bible says as confirmation of that. People can abandon God for whatever reason they deem justifiable --- doesn't take much to get ones nose out of joint especially when One places enormous worth on freethinking autonomous living.

Elite or quasi-elite Scientist....all know full well that you don't get a razor edge fine tuned Universe as ours by blind random chance from Materials or a Force, nor apart from a personal willful First Cause. They know as much as anyone that, the atheistic explanation for our reality takes an enormous amount of illogical and unreasonable faith. The jettison of our required personal Creator is never based on a lack of scientific evidence...but rather , a stubborn/prideful/arrogance for the Commoner as well as the highly educated esteemed Individual . Its not that they cant admit to God existing , its that they wont.

The decline of Christianity doesn't reflect on its credibility in the least. It does however reflect on People needing to be their own 'god' by buying into the popular forms of American Cultural mantras for living.

bhsmte said:

There are always going to be high level scientists who believe, that goes without saying, because that is what they have chosen and is right for them. Nothing wrong with that.

That fact is, as you get to the elite scientist level believers are far lower than in the general population. The other fact is, belief in a God in general and in Christianity, has been declining in the world and in the United States for decades. Explaining this away by saying the bible says this will happen doesn't explain what is motivating these people to move away from the belief. Do you actually think, people that move away from Christianity say to themselves; the bible says people will fall away, so I guess it is time for me to do so?

Scientists and Belief | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

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Are you serious?
You mean, it does not occur to you to wonder how the heck God knew what was going to happen ahead of time?
What we see happening around us was predicted long ago. So, it is no surprise to us. That is the point that was being made.

Sure, "elite scientists" are less apt to believe. Think how it would affect their friendships, not to mention their career, if they suddenly announced that they had become Christian. There is very little incentive for them to come to Christ, and a great deal to remain in their atheist mind set. The amazing thing is that there are serious believers among the ranks of the "elite scientists" who dare to speak out about their beliefs.

I'm sure most of the Christians on this board have heard all about how "critical and analytical thinkers" are rarely believers, and how believers generally have lower IQs than atheists, etc, etc, etc. I actually had one atheist tell me that I should "crawl out from under the trailer park and get a library card. Hilarious, when you consider that I was reading Shakespeare in the third grade...

Angelquill said:

Are you serious?
You mean, it does not occur to you to wonder how the heck God knew what was going to happen ahead of time?
What we see happening around us was predicted long ago. So, it is no surprise to us. That is the point that was being made.

Could it be, the men who wrote the stories (many of whom are anonymous authors), knew, people may not buy the story over time and put in the wording as an excuse for people falling away?

Sure, "elite scientists" are less apt to believe. Think how it would affect their friendships, not to mention their career, if they suddenly announced that they had become Christian. There is very little incentive for them to come to Christ, and a great deal to remain in their atheist mind set. The amazing thing is that there are serious believers among the ranks of the "elite scientists" who dare to speak out about their beliefs.

About 40% of scientists believe in a God and don't appear to have any issues performing their profession, so why would anyone fear becoming a Christian? I have been around healthcare and science for over 20 years and have never had anyone discuss religious beliefs in the workplace. In a professional environment, people recognize it is none of their business what someone else believes or does not believe, so your excuse they have motivation not to believe is not valid.

I'm sure most of the Christians on this board have heard all about how "critical and analytical thinkers" are rarely believers, and how believers generally have lower IQs than atheists, etc, etc, etc. I actually had one atheist tell me that I should "crawl out from under the trailer park and get a library card. Hilarious, when you consider that I was reading Shakespeare in the third grade...

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Many believers are highly intelligent and I have already stated the same. There just happens to be a strong correlation between higher education levels and greater likelihood of someone not being a believer. Besides intelligence, personal psychology plays a large role in whether someone is a believer or not. Critical analytical thinkers are also less likely to believe in; ghosts, conspiracy theories, alien abductions and all sorts of other things they feel does not have credible evidence to support it.

And please let me clarify something. I am not saying people who believe have psychological issues. Both believers and non-believers can and do suffer from mental illness. If someone has a psychological need to believe in a God and it makes them a better person and able to cope with life better, than that is the right choice for them and would be considered healthy from a psychological standpoint.

bhsmte said:

How can you claim God has done what it take to make an atheist believe if one chooses to still not believe? If that is the case, he clearly hasn't done what is necessary for each person to believe.

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You are confusing a belief in God with knowledge of God. If you have “knowledge” of God’s existence you do not believe He exists but know He exists. Belief is the same as Faith and trust and trust/faith is what we need. If God provided “knowledge” to everyone that would eliminate the need for faith in His existence being a detriment to man.