Why does it matter?

[PeterDona]

Me and my catholic prayer brother are undertaking a conversation with 2 JW friends of mine. We are all 4 pretty well versed in scripture, and my prayer brother is a cradle catholic, so I am hoping for the input he will provide.

But I would like to pose the question to the forum also: We are discussing the divinity of Jesus, and they recently presented their view with relevant scriptures. Now I could of course present another view using scriptures, but then our conversation might tip into debate, which is hardly fruitful.

So instead we try to focus on the question: why does it matter whether Jesus is divine? My jw friends should answer, why is it so important that Jesus is not God, that they e.g. can not pray with people of a different observation, and we catholics must answer, why the divinity is for us such an important thing, and e.g. how is it that Jesus can say in John 8:24, that if we do not believe he is God, then we are still in our sins.

As my catholic brother pointed out, it took the Church 400 years to reach a decision on this, so maybe there would be many considerations to go through.

Have you ever wondered?

 

[BrAndreyu]

why does it matter whether Jesus is divine?

Because the Transfiguration pretty clearly shows that he is, and if he were not divine then he would not have been sinless and his death would not have been the perfect living sacrifice on behalf of the sins of every person throughout history. Jesus, during his ministry, was both fully god and fully man.

 

[PeterDona]

Because the Transfiguration pretty clearly shows that he is, and if he were not divine then he would not have been sinless

stimulating thoughts. But do we not normally believe that also angels are sinless?

I understand how the sacrifice of Christ was for the sins of "many", so maybe also the magnitude of the sacrifice should be considered if Jesus was an angel rather than God.

 

[Michie]

stimulating thoughts. But do we not normally believe that also angels are sinless?

I understand how the sacrifice of Christ was for the sins of "many", so maybe also the magnitude of the sacrifice should be considered if Jesus was an angel rather than God.

Jesus is God. He is divine. Our faith teaches us that. What do you think you are receiving in communion??

 

[PeterDona]

Jesus is God. He is divine. Our faith teaches us that. What do you think you are receiving in communion??

Hm, yes, I see, another line of thinking there.
I will have to be honest, I am not sure what a "Jesus is not God" believer would be able to think about the Eucharist. Would he be able to see it as manna from heaven?

 

[BrAndreyu]

But do we not normally believe that also angels are sinless?

No, angels have the capacity to sin. Hence, lucifer and what are now called "demons". They are fallen angels, angels who sinned.

 

[Michie]

Hm, yes, I see, another line of thinking there.
I will have to be honest, I am not sure what a "Jesus is not God" believer would be able to think about the Eucharist. Would he be able to see it as manna from heaven?

Your Catholic? Don’t you know what we receive in communion?

 

[Gnarwhal]

I think my most fundamental Sunday school response is that it matters because a mere human's sacrifice wouldn't have sufficiently satisfied God's justice for the sins of all mankind. God had to condescend to man, becoming human while remaining God in the hypostatic union. He had to experience everything we experience, good and bad, to fully make the sacrifice whole. To blanket over every sin ever committed before, during, and after.

 

[PeterDona]

Your Catholic? Don’t you know what we receive in communion?

I am catholic. But not my 2 jw friends. That is why I called them "Jesus is not God" believers.
As I know it, the Witnesses only share the communion once a year, and in the shape of a "memorial meal".
I had a conversation with the same 2 witnesses 2 years ago when I was converting, on John 6, and I understood that they went straight to 6:63 for their doctrine. As I have seen others do. Somehow 6:63 for many provides the grip on the whole passage, and the heavenly manna becomes "reading the Word".

 

[Michie]

I am catholic. But not my 2 jw friends. That is why I called them "Jesus is not God" believers.
As I know it, the Witnesses only share the communion once a year, and in the shape of a "memorial meal".
I had a conversation with the same 2 witnesses 2 years ago when I was converting, on John 6, and I understood that they went straight to 6:63 for their doctrine. As I have seen others do. Somehow 6:63 for many provides the grip on the whole passage, and the heavenly manna becomes "reading the Word".

But I’m asking you as a Catholic, what are you receiving when you go to Communion? That will answer your question.

 

[PeterDona]

But I’m asking you as a Catholic, what are you receiving when you go to Communion? That will answer your question.

As per my faith, I am receiving Jesus Christ, who gave himself fully for me. I also have the intuition, that this is how Jesus "will save His people from their sins", so the ongoing reception of Christ is meaningful for us catholics/christians. As it says in the Lord's prayer "give us this day our daily bread" encouraging us to receive the sacrament every day.

All glory be to Jesus Christ

 

[Michie]

As per my faith, I am receiving Jesus Christ, who gave himself fully for me. I also have the intuition, that this is how Jesus "will save His people from their sins", so the ongoing reception of Christ is meaningful for us catholics/christians. As it says in the Lord's prayer "give us this day our daily bread" encouraging us to receive the sacrament every day.

All glory be to Jesus Christ

You are receiving the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

It is very important and does matter. Either God loves us or He does not. We are either the puppets of an arbitrary master, or the creation of a loving God who gave Himself for us.
In Jehovah’s Witnesses, they do not believe that God Himself saved them, but only a messenger or an angel. Their god did not care enough to come himself, but just sacrificed a second which cost him nothing.
In Jehovah’s Witness theology they do not even get eternal life from this second. If they die in their faith, it is only a copy that is resurrected, or reanimated because a copy is not a true resurrection. If they die in sin, they are annihilated as there is no hell. Why follow Jehovah’s witnesses? You will just wind up dead anyway; there is no life. Their main hope is that Armageddon will happen in their lifetime on earth, and then they have a chance at living forever, but only on Earth. It’s only 144,000 that get to go to heaven. Sad theology, pray for them.
In the one true faith God himself comes down and rescues His people, as it says in Isaiah 63:9

9out of all their affliction: not an ambassador, nor a messenger, but himself saved them, because he loved them and spared them: he himself redeemed them, and took them up, and lifted them up all the days of old.

Jehovah’s witnesses changed the meaning of that verse in the New World Translation, so the verse is not good to use as an argument with them

it is the concept and the love of God vs their arbitrary Jehovah that will show a difference.
The Lord God is not a politician as we have in the United States where they make up laws and exempt themselves from following them
Jesus leads by example, not from behind or dictatorial. God commands us to honor our mother and father. Do you think Jesus would not do that? He says He came to do the will of the Father who sent Him, not because He was less, but He was showing us the way. Do you think that God would not also honor His mother? The Angel Gabriel called Mary full of grace. If we say she sinned like us we do not insult her only, but count the Full measure of the grace of God as impotent to save. The Angel Gabriel also said the Jesus would rule from the throne of David. This is to show the typology. Davis was the father, Solomon was the son and Bathsheba was the queen mother.
In God’s Kingdom we have God the Father, God the Son and Mary, the queen mother
As it says in Psalm 44 (45)


7 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness.

8 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

9 Myrrh and stacte and cassia perfume thy garments, from the ivory houses: out of which

10 the daughters of kings have delighted thee in thy glory. The queen stood on thy right hand, in gilded clothing; surrounded with variety.


yes it does matter, the hearts of Jehovah’s witnesses have been blinded by the spirits of this world. Pray pray for them every day. Ask Mary to intercede. They may not listen to your words, but the Holy Spirit will work on their hearts if we will but pray and ask blessed Mary ever virgin, all the angels and saints to pray to the Lord our God

 

[BrAndreyu]

It’s only 144,000 that get to go to heaven.

When I first moved to this area, it was seemingly everyone in my school that was a Jehova's Witness or a Southern Baptist, with a small group of Roman Catholic kids who were often harassed by these other two groups for "not being Saved©". So when I was in the 5th grade, I was around a lot of JWs

They had to change that to being 144,000 per "tier" because there were so many people becoming JWs. I guess now it's that the original 144,00 will be at "Jehova God's" head, the next 144,000 will be at his shoulders, so on and so forth.

The most bizarre thing is that, as per what I've been told, they think that God is a an actual guy named "Jehova God" and that Jesus died on a single, upright post rather than a cross. Oh yeah, and Archangel Michael and Jesus are the same person (figure that one out if you can!)

 

[Michie]

When I first moved to this area, it was seemingly everyone in my school that was a Jehova's Witness or a Southern Baptist, with a small group of Roman Catholic kids who were often harassed by these other two groups for "not being Saved©". So when I was in the 5th grade, I was around a lot of JWs

They had to change that to being 144,000 per "tier" because there were so many people becoming JWs. I guess now it's that the original 144,00 will be at "Jehova God's" head, the next 144,000 will be at his shoulders, so on and so forth.

The most bizarre thing is that, as per what I've been told, they think that God is a an actual guy named "Jehova God" and that Jesus died on a single, upright post rather than a cross. Oh yeah, and Archangel Michael and Jesus are the same person (figure that one out if you can!)

.

 

[PeterDona]

It is very important and does matter. Either God loves us or He does not. We are either the puppets of an arbitrary master, or the creation of a loving God who gave Himself for us.
In Jehovah’s Witnesses, they do not believe that God Himself saved them, but only a messenger or an angel. Their god did not care enough to come himself, but just sacrificed a second which cost him nothing.

How beautiful a reply.

My catholic prayer brother made his presentation today saturday, and I would say it ran much along those lines that you have presented here. It was such a spirited presentation, and I learned something today. I wanted to share with you people, my notes from my prayer brother's presentation, hopefully you may also reap something there. I must be honest, I can see that my prayer brother Paul really must have put some work in it. But also a heart full of the love of God.

(1) What did God say about His Son
- in Genesis God says "we" 2 times. In John 1 it is "in the beginning was LOGOS, it was with God and it was God"

(2) what did the prophets say about the messiah
- they spoke about where he would be born, and what would be the sign of him
- "Immanuel" - what do you think it means (my JW friends had never thought about it) - it means "God with us"

(3) Mary, the annunciation
- "Hail Mary full of grace" - notice how the angel addresses her reverently
- "He shall be called the Son of God"
- "the Spirit of God will come over you", is similar to genesis "the Spirit of God hovered over the waters", so it could be seen as a creation moment
- How do we know this history, because John the apostle lived with Mary, and they probably talked about all those things that had happened

(4) The angels singing before the shepherds in the field
- how often do we see in scripture a mass choir of angels singing at the birth of someone?

(5) When Jesus was 12 years old
- "do you not know that I must be with my Father" - Jesus already at this point knew that God is his father

(6) The wedding at Cana, the first push
- water to wine, again a reminder of "the Spirit hovered above the waters"
- wine is connected with joy, and later Jesus connects wine with his blood

(7) Jesus baptism
- the dove represents a special presence
- "hear HIM" - all that Jesus says we must hear and accept
- God the Father is so moved by this event, that he speaks from heaven, that he loves this Son
- love is the relation between the Father and Son
- "God is love" (1 john)
- God did not just send a messenger, he came himself, with love

(8) Jesus prayer life
- it was important for Jesus to go aside to have time alone with his Father, to talk, to be in unity.
- Jesus says "I do only what I see my Father do" - so he does act only out of this very intimate relation with the Father

(9) Jesus asks "who do you say that I am?"
- Peter answers "you are the Messiah", and Jesus says "my Father in heaven has revealed this to you"
- many signs confirmed that Jesus is the Messiah

(10) I am the way, the truth and the life
- this would be very hard to say unless you are God yourself. God is the ultimate truth. How can you say that unless you are God?
- Jesus must have been intimately connected with the essence of God

(11) The life that Jesus gives
- we can look forward to a special kind of life
- we receive this life by eating
- that (eating) also reflects an intimate connection

(12) divine things that Jesus did
- raising a dead person (was in OT however done by Elijah and Elisha)
- to forgive sins, again hard if you are not God, only God can forgive sins
- Jesus institutes a new sacrificial system when he institutes the Eucharist
- Who can decide what is good enough in the eyes of God? Actually only God himself
- "Do this in remembrance of ME" - not in remembrance of God (?) - this would be a total blasphemy, unless ...
- hereby is given an invitation to all people to participate in His life, also spoken of by Malachi (?)

(13) Jesus last prayer
- "let them be one as we are one" - we are invited to be one even to the degree that Jesus and the Father are one

After this presentation my jw friends were silent for some time, and then actually said it had been an interesting presentation. They noted that it was the first time for them to hear the catholic view.