Why does it make me mad?

Remember they called John the Baptist crazy too "For John came neither eating nor drinking and they say 'He has a demon!' "... but he had more of the Spirit than they did so he didn't care too much. Until they beheaded him which pretty much ruined the rest of his life. lol

So I'm thinkin maybe Pharisitical jealousy?

Altya.

I would have liked to have had a person like you around when I was a baby Christian. It would have saved me some grieve. Or perhaps stopped me being a fool.

But babiea are socute.

My personal opinion is that a lot of people are afraid of it and rather than admit to it

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Hmm, I belonged to a Pentecostal church which was more concerned with outward appearances during worship than with real intimate relationships with G-d.

It should've come to no suprise to me that the very same church I attended sent me to a Christian Camp where the Head Pastor's son provided the Drugs and Alcohol for the rest of the kids. This is often what happens when we are more concerned with pleasing spiritual leadership than our own relationships with G-d.

Indeed. In my pentecostal church love was not even brought up, in fact there was a seminar once on learning to speak in "a new tongue" instead of your old one. Rather in-depth theology eh?

The reason why I am no longer a pentecostal pertains to the fact that they do not practice scripture according to 1 Corinthians 14:27. In that sense, they also disobey Jesus' commandment on short prayers/good works that are not in the presence of other people (in order for it to be between you and g-d only). In my church, the pastor once announced who gained the gift of tongues during the Wednesday night service.

Oh well, as the saying goes; the opposite of law is lawlessness. When you rebel in the name of forsaking legalism you often become legalistic.

RobSav said:

...(in order for it to be between you and g-d only). ..

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God... not god... or for you G-d... not g-d

Sorry I see that as a matter of repsect for Him. I don't mean to sound nit-picky lol it's just a pet peeve of mine you could say.

God's name at any time should be capitalized to show Him proper respect.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings lol

Sorry I see that as a matter of repsect for Him. I don't mean to sound nit-picky lol it's just a pet peeve of mine you could say.
God's name at any time should be capitalized to show Him proper respect.

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Pharisees would commit good works in order to be seen and commended. Jesus said otherwise. In fact, he told his disciples to hide their faces when fasting(!).

I guess what I'm getting at is rather pointless.

RobSav said:

The reason why I am no longer a pentecostal pertains to the fact that they do not practice scripture according to 1 Corinthians 14:27. In that sense, they also disobey Jesus' commandment on short prayers/good works that are not in the presence of other people (in order for it to be between you and g-d only). In my church, the pastor once announced who gained the gift of tongues during the Wednesday night service.

Oh well, as the saying goes; the opposite of law is lawlessness. When you rebel in the name of forsaking legalism you often become legalistic.

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Rob: Isn't this throwing the baby out with the bath water?

I don't go to "Charismatic Churches" because of all that bunk. However I'm pleased that the work of our church is underpinned with people using the spiritual gifts in the background. True, charismatic gifts should not be the focus of a service. That doesn't mean that God's gifts should be spurned, rejected and not used. All denominations have a problem with Super Christian showing off at the front. The forms of this Phariseeism are just different.

The Midge said:

Rob: Isn't this throwing the baby out with the bath water?

I don't go to "Charismatic Churches" because of all that bunk. However I'm pleased that the work of our church is underpinned with people using the spiritual gifts in the background. True, charismatic gifts should not be the focus of a service. That doesn't mean that God's gifts should be spurned, rejected and not used. All denominations have a problem with Super Christian showing off at the front. The forms of this Phariseeism are just different.

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I cannot speak for other churches but I don't believe that my church abuses these things. However, I suppose there are those who cannot keep their minds on Jesus and choose instead to look around and judge those who are at least trying to get their focus in the right place.

I know there are those in my church who judge me because I'm willing to step out and allow God to use me. . .and it's taken me a long time to be able to step out without a great deal of spiritual wrestling due to the judging I'll receive from those who are doing nothing.

Most of those whom I "fellowship" with closely, incourage me with words of support. Those who choose to view me as "super christian", simply are missing the point in what God is doing. Not due to me, but in spite of me.

IMO, those focusing on the gifts are those who are not participating in true worship. A true worshipper will not judge people in their mistakes. Instead they will pray for them and if they are in a place of authority and correction they will show them the "more excellent way" to operate in that gifting.

I'm late, but for a long time, I was against the charasmatic movement, and am still in the process of being completely "cleansed" from this judgment, so to speak. It's not because I'm "afraid" of anything, but because there have been a few charasmatic leaders (although anointed men/women of God) who have given messages that I've misinterpreted as condemning people who's manifestation of reacting to the spirit doesn't involve dancing and shouting. For some months, I've been struggling through spiritual warfare and confusion/thoughts of condemnation because I pray silently, prefer to worship silently, and when I pray in the spirit, I do it subtly under my breath. Now the church that I attend, I consider non denominational. I suppose you could call us charasmatic because we regularly have people in the congregation prophecy, we sing in the spirit, we do whatever it is the spirit leads us, but at the same time, the pastor has made it very clear that if one person reacts to the spirit in this way and another person reacts to the spirit in that way neither are more superior to the other. They're not wrong, just different. But because of certain things that other charasmatic leaders have said, I've been lead to believe that despite the fact that my heart is full of love for my brothers/sisters in Christ, I seek the will of God with everything in me, I continuously seek to grow closer to the Lord, I follow all the commandments, I even rebuke myself if I realize that something that I've said or done is even remotely unrighteous and seek how I can grow in the spirit, that because I don't shout or because I prefer to pray silently within myself, that I'm displeasing God. To be honest, this is the first time, I've written this down and it's making me consider the absurdity of it all, but I've seriously been enduring through mental and emotional warfare because of this. I've been praying that God release me from judging others, especially brothers and sisters in Christ, and especially over something as petty as how we choose to worship Him, because He hates division amongst the body. But I don't blame the charasmatics themselves (I guess you could call me a charasmatic too...only I don't shout or jerk/buck), but the church as a whole for being so condemning towards one another. People who prefer to be silent condemn people who shout because "we" think that they're killing the mood, and "they" condemn people who are silent because they say that they're too concerned about what people think (which isn't true).

superdave said:

Why does it make me mad when Fundementalist Christian groups attack the Charismatic Movement- when we are reaching the lost by thousands, and helping people know the Lord better. It makes me mad when I read words like 'Fanatical Charismania' or 'Wacky Cultist' or all of that. Why can't we live in Peace together as the body of Christ? I feel like we are persecuted alot for our stance. Is it wrong for me to feel a little bit of anger when I read crazy words of accusations?

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I thought the majority of 'fundamentalists' were charismatic,being from the uk im not familiar with the term fundamentalist,would someone pleaz explain?

superdave said:

Why does it make me mad when Fundementalist Christian groups attack the Charismatic Movement- when we are reaching the lost by thousands, and helping people know the Lord better. It makes me mad when I read words like 'Fanatical Charismania' or 'Wacky Cultist' or all of that. Why can't we live in Peace together as the body of Christ? I feel like we are persecuted alot for our stance. Is it wrong for me to feel a little bit of anger when I read crazy words of accusations?

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I understand. But you have to step back, think, and observe.

The old mainline denominations, are caught up in squabbles, social activism, moving away from pure faith and love of Jesus to trying to change the world along liberal lines.

Charismatics are going back to Christianity's roots getting involved in prayer, the Holy Spirit, internalising intructions. Almost mystical. It seems out of character to those without an indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we seem fanatical to them, oddballs.

But look what the RESULTS are. Charismatic/Pentecostal groups and denominations are growing by leaps and bounds, filling a need, the older denominations without the gifts of the spirit are dying.

Isn't that a perfect counter to the scoffers? They die off, we grow. Apparently God himself agrees with this movement, for he is driving millions from them to us.

Seek solace in that reality.

Very true...

My experience of 'Charismatics' is limited. It is also very negative.

A large group of girls at my school joined a Charismatic church - it was a fashionable place to be at that time . One by one, they drifted out of it, and either back to atheism / agnosticism, or to their original churches. Every single girl who had attended the church said that they did not believe the things that went on. They all claimed to have faked experiences / tongues speaking, to avoid feeling left out.

At the time, they spoke passionately. After the initial few years, they claimed it had been false. They had not seen a single prophecy which had borne true.

As teenagers, we spoke with these girls about their church. We were interested and intrigued. I and some other friends listened to these girls who told us we must pray for the gifts of prophecy and tongues. We dutifully prayed, and not a single one of us was blessed with such a gift.

This is the basis for my scepticism.

In addition, I wonder how there can have been so few, wise prophets througout history, and now, any person who claims to have such a gift is labelled a prophet. How do you tell the gifted from the false prophets? Is there a formal record of all prophecies?

The second branch of my question concerns these gifts. Why is there so much emphasis upon external, earthly acts? Why is the internal, personal, soulful, peaceful experience of the Holy Spirit (which many other denominations regularly experience) displayed in such a way?

Thanks for your thoughts
Your sister in Christ
Emma

what's wrong with being charismatic?

I think we are all at different levels. It's when you know Jesus that "reaching the lost" is what matters.

Jesus I am so in love with you..

superdave said:

Why does it make me mad when Fundementalist Christian groups attack the Charismatic Movement- when we are reaching the lost by thousands, and helping people know the Lord better. It makes me mad when I read words like 'Fanatical Charismania' or 'Wacky Cultist' or all of that. Why can't we live in Peace together as the body of Christ? I feel like we are persecuted alot for our stance. Is it wrong for me to feel a little bit of anger when I read crazy words of accusations?

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Is there anyone out there who could answer my qustions (above) on this subject?

Thanks
Emma

Emma - I'll try to give you some insight... at least from where I see it.

Prophecy is a gift from God, and our God is perfect - He never makes mistakes. However, His children do; Jesus scolded the disciples, saying, "Oh, ye of little faith." Peter stepped out of the boat and walked on water, toward Jesus - but, as his faith ebbed, he began to sink. His "ability" to walk on water hadn't faltered, Jesus' capability to supply Peter's need hadn't faltered - Peter's faith had faltered. Jesus said, in Mark 9:23, "If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes."

A word of prophecy from God can look forward. It can also be given as an insight to an individual or situation, possibly revealing God-given information to that person. Obviously, such "forth-telling" is not equivalent with Scripture - and that's why such prophecy should be tested - by its conformance to God's Word. I Cor. 14:29 says, "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the others judge."

Emma, only God (and His revealed Word) is infallible...

Charismatic Christians must admit that the excitement, the joy that the Holy Spirit provides can be the catalyst that draws people to charismatic churches. OF course, this is good - it's drawing people to Christ Jesus, which was the purpose of the baptism of the Spirit (Acts 1:8). On the other hand, it can motivate people to seek the experience, seek the gifts, and not the Giver of the Gifts. This will end up in disappointment, in envy, in frustration.

This was my experience, for several years. Frustration, crying out to God for the filling of the Spirit, instead of focusing on Jesus. But once I received the baptism, I finally felt the "internal, personal, soulful, peaceful experience of the Holy Spirit," as you so eloquently put it. I don't know... thirty years in Baptist churches, and a superficial relationship was all I'd ever known. God gave me a hunger (in my immaturity, I see now) for tongues - I never realized that with HIM I'd get the joy and peace that I'd been craving, and not just from "tongues." This hunger led me to seek the gifts, and by HIs mercy He gave me the fullness of His Spirit. Afterwards, I received my "prayer language," but my hunger was satiated by His presence.

So to try to answer your second question, the "charismatic pre-occupation" with spiritual gifts may just arise from the joy that He gives us as we worship Him - in part using these gifts.

I don't know for sure... just my two cents.

May God richly bless you.