Why does God show himself to the believers but not to the skeptics? (Moved)

Archaeopteryx said:

Then what does deconversion imply?

Click to expand...

Lots. It would be a good discussion

Archaeopteryx said:

I'm not at fault for having this thread moved to a different subforum. I don't see why this should affect my participation in any way.

Click to expand...

Me too, but the rules are the rules, and they justify consequences. Plenty of people will not be grateful for those consequences.

Archaeopteryx said:

My point is that the mere fact that people believe does not imply that God has or hasn't actually revealed himself to them.

Click to expand...

No but it could mean exactly that. Just aren't certain. Though those who experience it say they are. Regardless, it's possible for God to show Himself to a skeptic, which is the issue of the OP.

talquin said:

As I said earlier, if God does exist, most atheists would like to see evidence of his existence. So let's assume that God does exist. You have this vast quantity of humans (hundreds of millions of non-believers) who would like to see evidence of God's existence should God actually exist. And he shows himself to exist to perhaps less than .001% of those people.

Have you heard the saying "actions speak louder than words". Well, from this, we can conclude if your god does exist, he doesn't care if people don't believe he exists. Why do you suppose he doesn't care?

Click to expand...

Well I guess it depends on what kind of evidence those non - believers are expecting? The last sentence of your first paragraph is interesting: "And he shows himself to exist to perhaps less than .001% of those people."

He shows Himself to exist? Even if its hypothetical it still suggests that .001% of those skeptical non - believers discovered something about God. You'd have to ask of that .001% what evidence they accepted in order to believe.

I don't think they would reach the same conclusion as you though.

talquin said:

Why does God show himself to the believers but not to the skeptics?

When you ask a Christian how they know their belief is true, they'll often say through personal revelation or that they have directly observed God. However, it's usually the case that they were Christians prior to this occurring. So why would an all-loving God show himself to those who already believe he exists but not show himself to skeptics?

There are only two reconciliations to this that I can think of:
1) God wants for there to be skeptics
2) God doesn't really exist

Click to expand...

Because under the covenant one needs faith (not evidence) to be saved. If you've got the evidence then you won't be able to be saved.

God may choose to reveal more of Him to the believers as a believer is already saved.

Archaeopteryx said:

Then what does deconversion imply?

Click to expand...

That the devil exists and blinds people. The reason I came back was not because of dead raising and miracles, but because there's overwhelming evidence of evil in this world.

talquin said:

Once again: is the god you believe in is something that atheists observe to exist?

If a being is invisible and inaudible, then how can it's existence be distinguished from its non-existence?

So to you, "God" is the person in the Bible who is called Jesus. How do you know for sure that Jesus was a real person? How can you be sure that the Bible wasn't a work of fiction?

Click to expand...

You want me to demonstrate that I can "be sure" of my faith in Christ? So then, you're not an Evidentialist, but a Rationalist? And you'd like for me to present to you a Rationalist framework, but do so with "evidence" from which you think we could then deduce some kind of surety about religion? Which is it here?

talquin said:

As I said earlier, if God does exist, most atheists would like to see evidence of his existence. So let's assume that God does exist. You have this vast quantity of humans (hundreds of millions of non-believers) who would like to see evidence of God's existence should God actually exist. And he shows himself to exist to perhaps less than .001% of those people.

Have you heard the saying "actions speak louder than words". Well, from this, we can conclude if your god does exist, he doesn't care if people don't believe he exists. Why do you suppose he doesn't care?

Click to expand...

You make an unsupported statement: “most atheists would like to see evidence of his existence”, since I have talked with lots of atheist that would say just the opposite.

What huge positive change would it make in your personal life, if you knew God existed?

Suppose the God that does exist is not a God you would like, would it be better for you to think He does not exist?

Would a caring God, want you to just acknowledge His existence and then have you personally plagued (burdened) by that knowledge?

Knowledge does not help the nonbeliever have faith, since knowledge replaces faith. Knowledge is part of self-reliance; while “faith” in a benevolent Creator is a humbling activity that anyone can do (and we need humility to accept charity).

How willing are you to humbly accept charity and what would cause you to do such a thing?