Why does God show himself to the believers but not to the skeptics? (Moved)

talquin · Jan 24, 2015

Why does God show himself to the believers but not to the skeptics?

When you ask a Christian how they know their belief is true, they'll often say through personal revelation or that they have directly observed God. However, it's usually the case that they were Christians prior to this occurring. So why would an all-loving God show himself to those who already believe he exists but not show himself to skeptics?

There are only two reconciliations to this that I can think of:
1) God wants for there to be skeptics
2) God doesn't really exist

Colter · Jan 24, 2015

talquin said:
Why does God show himself to the believers but not to the skeptics?

When you ask a Christian how they know their belief is true, they'll often say through personal revelation or that they have directly observed God. However, it's usually the case that they were Christians prior to this occurring. So why would an all-loving God show himself to those who already believe he exists but not show himself to skeptics?

There are only two reconciliations to this that I can think of:
1) God wants for there to be skeptics
2) God doesn't really exist

When the pupil is ready the teacher will appear, God is revealed in the sincerity of faith. No sign will be given without the birth of this faith gift first.

talquin · Jan 24, 2015

Colter said:
When the pupil is ready the teacher will appear, God is revealed in the sincerity of faith. No sign will be given without the birth of this faith gift first.

I can't speak for all atheists, but if God does exist, both myself and most atheists I know would want to see evidence of God's existence.

AionPhanes · Jan 24, 2015

talquin said:
I can't speak for all atheists, but if God does exist, both myself and most atheists I know would want to see evidence of God's existence.

Which is a legitimate concern for sure. I don't think the issue is open to an easy solution either. To a certain extent even faith, which in many instances allows one the platform from which to "see" and experience God, is itself a gift from God. Not that man plays no role whatsoever but merely that it's a very subtle role of being properly open to accept, activate , etc.. (or whatever term one might feel more appropriate,) the gift.

From what I can gather all one can do is the following: Seek to be as open as possible. Pray constantly in terms of praising God, asking him to reveal himself, expressing thanksgiving for reality, and things of that nature. Seek out Christians who appear to "have what you want" in terms of their compassion and virtue and then associate with / listen to them. Maybe even go to Church, preferably an Eastern Orthodox Church , and just watch the liturgy too.

Christ is Risen!

talquin · Jan 24, 2015

AionPhanes said:
Which is a legitimate concern for sure. I don't think the issue is open to an easy solution either. To a certain extent even faith, which in many instances allows one the platform with which to "see" and experience God, is itself a gift from God. Not that man plays no role whatsoever but merely that it's a very subtle role of being properly open to accept, activate , etc.. (or whatever term one might feel more appropriate,) the gift.

From what I can gather all one can do is the following: Seek to be as open as possible. Pray constantly in terms of praising God, asking him to reveal himself, expressing thanksgiving for reality, and things of that nature. Seek out Christians who appear to "have what you want" in terms of their compassion and virtue and then associate with / listen to them. Maybe even go to Church, preferably an Eastern Orthodox Church , and just watch the liturgy too.

Other than that I really can't help you there. It's a real fiendish problem to be sure. One I wrestled with decades before even starting to get a hint of an answer.

I wish you the best in seeking.

Christ is Risen!

It sounds like you're talking about something other than a being which can do anything, knows everything and loves everyone. It sounds more as if you're talking about some kind of immaterial reward one gets for praying and going to church. An all-knowing God would know that going to church and praying isn't the proper route for atheists to go if the atheists want to see evidence of God.

jacks · Jan 24, 2015

talquin said:
Why does God show himself to the believers but not to the skeptics?

When you ask a Christian how they know their belief is true, they'll often say through personal revelation or that they have directly observed God. However, it's usually the case that they were Christians prior to this occurring. So why would an all-loving God show himself to those who already believe he exists but not show himself to skeptics?

There are only two reconciliations to this that I can think of:
1) God wants for there to be skeptics
2) God doesn't really exist

He "showed" Himself to Paul. There couldn't have been a bigger skeptic.

talquin · Jan 24, 2015

jacks said:
He "showed" Himself to Paul. There couldn't have been a bigger skeptic.

What exactly did Paul observe? And how could Paul have known this was a god?

jacks · Jan 24, 2015

talquin said:
What exactly did Paul observe? And how could Paul have known this was a god?

Read Acts 9 for more details.

Inkfingers · Jan 24, 2015

talquin said:
I can't speak for all atheists, but if God does exist, both myself and most atheists I know would want to see evidence of God's existence.

You misunderstand the point. God saves who He chooses. He isn't missing any conversion opportunities by not making a personal appearance (and if he did make a personal appearance many people would claim its still not God but its and alien or something).

Besides which, the irony is that is IS fully there to see all around, and people cannot see the wood for the trees until he makes them....and then we all face-palm because He's so obvious.

orangeness365 · Jan 24, 2015

This happened a lot while he was alive too. When he was resurrected he stayed away from the pharisees. When he performed miracles on people, it was often on people that already had faith. I think, as has been pointed out, he has revealed himself to skeptics like Paul, but I see him revealing himself as a gift, and also as a responsibility, and why should he give it to people that refuse to be his children? Remember that to whom much is given, much is expected?

Luke 12:48
English Standard Version
But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

My guess is that if you were given a vision, and you rejected it when it was a personal revelation given to you, you might end up with more of a severe punishment for rejecting him after receiving that but still rejecting him, than if you had just never known at all.

Remember, you could still come to Christ without your evidence, and that God wants all to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

AionPhanes · Jan 24, 2015

talquin said:
It sounds like you're talking about something other than a being which can do anything, knows everything and loves everyone. It sounds more as if you're talking about some kind of immaterial reward one gets for praying and going to church.

I'm not sure how to word it differently so that it would no longer sound like an immaterial reward..... at least at this specific moment. For me at least it's a very subtle thing. Hard to describe.

An all-knowing God would know that going to church and praying isn't the proper route for atheists to go if the atheists want to see evidence of God.

That's hard to say. I wouldn't presume to know exactly how God would act in a specific instance like that given all the billions of possible unaccounted for circumstances and the possible goal or telos of the whole universe that might require certain "strange" possibilities. I can empathize with your thought though because I've had similar ones before.

I believe it's important to remember that Christianity isn't just about an historical person who lived 2,000 years ago or about a God in heaven though. Christianity takes seriously the kenosis, the emptying** or self humbling, of both God and man. To a large degree God appears from within. Christ within us. Some seekers might see Christ in their brothers first but eventually He must make his appearance within. The incarnation makes possible God-Manhood for all of us. The path of Theosis or divinization.

I wish you the best in seeking. Heck, you know what they (whoever they are ) say "a seeking atheist is closer to God than a content Christian." Never stop seeking. If you don't have omniscience you aint done yet.

** Re Christ "self emptying" or "making himself nothing" :

In your relationships with one another,
have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
-PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8

You know the whole "those who are last will be first" thing.

pdudgeon · Jan 24, 2015

talquin said:
I can't speak for all atheists, but if God does exist, both myself and most atheists I know would want to see evidence of God's existence.

and God has already answered that argument. They have Moses and the prophets, let them listen to them.

part of the problem is that God exists on a different dimension than we do. Also He is not limited by time or space, since He created both of them. For man to see God, God would have to come into the sphere of man's existence.

That's what Jesus did, and still many of the people from His own day could not accept that God could become a man. But He did.

So the proof that you required has already been provided, has been witnessed by thousands of people, and yet God is still not accepted.

So what other reason do you have for not accepting the existence of God?

Soul2Soul · Jan 24, 2015

talquin said:
Why does God show himself to the believers but not to the skeptics?

When you ask a Christian how they know their belief is true, they'll often say through personal revelation or that they have directly observed God. However, it's usually the case that they were Christians prior to this occurring. So why would an all-loving God show himself to those who already believe he exists but not show himself to skeptics?

There are only two reconciliations to this that I can think of:
1) God wants for there to be skeptics
2) God doesn't really exist

I believe there are people who were once skeptical about the existence of God and have subsequently become believers (in Him). Perhaps you would get a more suitable reply from an ex atheist for example.

According to my understanding, God would not ignore anyone's earnest desire to seek Him.

Messy · Jan 24, 2015

talquin said:
Why does God show himself to the believers but not to the skeptics?

When you ask a Christian how they know their belief is true, they'll often say through personal revelation or that they have directly observed God. However, it's usually the case that they were Christians prior to this occurring. So why would an all-loving God show himself to those who already believe he exists but not show himself to skeptics?

There are only two reconciliations to this that I can think of:
1) God wants for there to be skeptics
2) God doesn't really exist

He shows Himself to skeptics. He showed Himself to me when I wasn't saved.
God doesn't want for there to be skeptics. Jesus said to a man: Unless you see signs and wonders you won't believe and then He healed his son. But now He needs christians to do the same as Jesus did so the world will believe.
He also shows Himself to muslims in a vision and I heard it also from atheists.

juvenissun · Jan 24, 2015

talquin said:
Why does God show himself to the believers but not to the skeptics?

If you see God, how should He look like?

Colter · Jan 24, 2015

talquin said:
I can't speak for all atheists, but if God does exist, both myself and most atheists I know would want to see evidence of God's existence.

That's the mistake that atheist make, they assume God is at first proven to the religionists and then believed in, they don't realize that God is revealed as a reality within faith itself.

"This saving faith has its birth in the human heart when the moral consciousness of man realizes that human values may be translated in mortal experience from the material to the spiritual, from the human to the divine, from time to eternity." UB 1955

2PhiloVoid · Jan 24, 2015

talquin said:
Why does God show himself to the believers but not to the skeptics?

When you ask a Christian how they know their belief is true, they'll often say through personal revelation or that they have directly observed God. However, it's usually the case that they were Christians prior to this occurring. So why would an all-loving God show himself to those who already believe he exists but not show himself to skeptics?

There are only two reconciliations to this that I can think of:
1) God wants for there to be skeptics
2) God doesn't really exist

God doesn't empirically 'show' Himself to believers any more than He does to unbelievers (not counting the Prophets of Old, of course). Furthermore, until the term 'show' is delineated in some clear and demonstrable way as to provide a specific context for what we are speaking about in this discussion, any underlying affirmations remain ludicrously vague and malleable. We might as well whisper in the wind for all the meaning it will provide to any of us.

orangeness365 · Jan 24, 2015

If Jesus revealed himself to every culture, then how would you know he was just the God of Israel, instead of The God of every type of culture and religion? He is very clear about being the God of Jacob and Abraham. You wouldn't want a case of mistaken identity would you?

talquin · Jan 25, 2015

Inkfingers said:
You misunderstand the point. God saves who He chooses. He isn't missing any conversion opportunities by not making a personal appearance (and if he did make a personal appearance many people would claim its still not God but its and alien or something).

Besides which, the irony is that is IS fully there to see all around, and people cannot see the wood for the trees until he makes them....and then we all face-palm because He's so obvious.

What real thing is it you are calling "God"?

talquin · Jan 25, 2015

AionPhanes said:
I'm not sure how to word it differently so that it would no longer sound like an immaterial reward..... at least at this specific moment. For me at least it's a very subtle thing. Hard to describe.

That's hard to say. I wouldn't presume to know exactly how God would act in a specific instance like that given all the billions of possible unaccounted for circumstances and the possible goal or telos of the whole universe that might require certain "strange" possibilities. I can empathize with your thought though because I've had similar ones before.

I believe it's important to remember that Christianity isn't just about an historical person who lived 2,000 years ago or about a God in heaven though. Christianity takes seriously the kenosis, the emptying** or self humbling, of both God and man. To a large degree God appears from within. Christ within us. Some seekers might see Christ in their brothers first but eventually He must make his appearance within. The incarnation makes possible God-Manhood for all of us. The path of Theosis or divinization.

I wish you the best in seeking. Heck, you know what they (whoever they are ) say "a seeking atheist is closer to God than a content Christian." Never stop seeking. If you don't have omniscience you aint done yet.

** Re Christ "self emptying" or "making himself nothing" :

In your relationships with one another,
have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death
even death on a cross!
-PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8

You know the whole "those who are last will be first" thing.

If God knows everything, then he knows precisely what it would take to get each and every atheist to believe he exists. He would know that my lack of belief isn't due to some hatred or negative feeling toward God or the concept of God. He would know that my lack of belief - as is the case with most atheists - is simply due to lack of evidence. For more on this, I suggest you watch this video by Scott Clifton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXzlMblBQpQ

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