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Why does God not stop the evil?

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FatalHeart

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If God exists and owns everything and created us for a purpose, He expects His purpose to be done, in which case, actions are duties. Maybe think of it as a copyright law. We would consider breaking a copyright law as unfair, seeing as it was not us who created the world but God, and so obligated to follow God. It would be legal right. However, we invented legal rights to protect ourselves from things we considered bad, in which case, even a legal right is based on subjectivity. However, one would assume that drinking poison would kill you, a subjective death, but an objective one none the less, assuming there is a reality of some sort and death isn't just something more interesting. What I am getting to is that with God moral reality is just that, a reality. Within the human sphere, we only have each other's power that governs what we do. With God in control, if He is in control, all that we do is subject to Him. He is an acting power over that which He created. Without God, there is no real acting power, accept that which can be overthrown. With God as the head of the moral reality, there is no undermining Him. So I see morality under God as far more superior, if God exists. The question is, does God exist. I would say, instead of asking why God doesn't stop evil, why not first see if God exists by taking Him up on His offer, "If you seek Me you will find Me when you seek Me with all your heart," and, "So that your faith may be based on God's power, rather than human argument," and, after that, ask yourself why God (assuming He finds you when you seek after Him with all your heart) would make good in the first place, if He was evil. I mean, if He really was evil, wouldn't everything just be evil? Why have any good at all?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Superior in what way? Assuming that a God who cares about morality exists, we are still left with a monumental epistemic problem, namely how do we obtain knowledge about this God's moral wishes and commands? One theist may claim that God regards a certain action X as evil. Another theist may claim that God considers X good and desirable. How should these conflicting moral claims be resolved? Both theists justify their claims by appealing to their God and both theists are unremittingly confident in the accuracy of their beliefs. It appears that we can only take their claims on faith, but then why should we preference one claim above another? Why should we even take their claims seriously if we do not follow their religious persuasions?
 
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Dacorian

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There is a need for good and evil in the world where creatures like us walk on. People don't realize it but, to say it in a Christian language, we need the devil as much as we need god to maintaining a balance. Too many positive sides makes a immediate natural reaction of a negative force and vice versa. But people don't understand this, but it's not intended to understand. It's just the natural way of living. Good and evil is easy to say in everyone's mouth, but what is good, what is evil? Are we well aware to know what it really means and how we can restrain it? Of course not, we can't. Human theories about good and evil are worthless.
 
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Mr. Pedantic

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Elioenai, please address my post.

I'd be curious to read up on this, got a link?

I don't have a paper, but I can give a simple explanation.

The idea is that transistors are made of structures formed from atoms (as are all things, really). The specific structures in question form basically bridges and platforms along which electrons travel.

In the things with which we interact on a daily basis, this is not a problem. The atoms are so small that granularity is not an issue. However, as you get smaller and smaller, this becomes more and more of an issue.

In the first computer I could call "my own", transistors were built on what is called a 0.13 micrometer process (130nm). This isn't really an uber-technical or uber-specific term, but it's one that the enthusiast and technical computer communities use. It gives a rough indication of how big various structures should be, and it (more importantly for this) can be compared to other sizes when used within the same company. Now, 130nm is tiny, when you think about it. For reference, a red blood cell is around 8000nm across on average, viruses average somewhere around the 50-100nm mark, and the atomic radius of a silicon atom (which is a major component of electronics) is around 0.11nm.

It was only around 9-10 years ago that people on the cutting edge were using this manufacturing process to make their chips. Now, people have spread out a bit more as rising costs (which is a result of what I'm outlining in this post) mean that larger transistor sizes are becoming more cost efficient compared to the cost of switching to the smaller manufacturing processes. But Samsung uses predominantly a 32nm process, Global Foundries (which makes chips for AMD) uses 32nm, TSMC (which also make chips for AMD, as well as NVIDIA and soon to be Apple) use a 28nm process, and Intel is currently using a 22nm process (transitioning to 14nm). This is partly the reason why Intel is so strong today - they have the volume and price margins which allow them to dump literally billions of dollars into manufacturing R&D every year, which allows them to make faster, more power efficient chips, which gives them margins and volume, which gives them R&D money, which...etc.

Note that those different numbers don't really mean jack. This information is very closely guarded, but in almost all likelihood the 32nm Samsung and Global Foundries processes won't be exactly the same size. As I said before, comparisons between different process sizes aren't that useful between companies. Suffice it to say that they're roughly the same size.

The whole idea of moving to a smaller process is that not only do you get to fit more chips into the same area, but because the structures are smaller you need lower voltages to switch the transistors on and off. And because of high-school level physics, P=VI and V=IR, keeping resistance the same (it's not in real life, but it's a reasonable simplification) power is proportional to voltage squared. Having lower-power chips means you get them in laptops, tablets, phones, and basically everything that drives modern civilization. The rate at which they get smaller was first formed into Moore's Law (more of a guideline) by Gordon Moore (co-founder of Intel). He predicted that every 18 months, transistor density would double - since the only way is to make them smaller at the moment, that's the way they've been going: smaller.

Intel's current roadmaps outline a production of 14nm chips starting this year, 10nm in 2015, 7nm in 2017, and 5nm in 2019 (going off current trends - Intel has this whole tick tock thing going which makes their roadmaps super rigid and easy to predict). Now, most of the major semiconductor manufacturing companies (we call them fabs) have had troubles migrating to the smaller processes. Intel had trouble migrating from 45nm to 32nm, they had to develop a completely new way of building transistors to get from 32nm to 22nm and beyond, and there have been rumoured to be a few small troubles going from 22 to 14nm and beyond. TSMC had so much trouble with 32nm that they had to abandon that entirely and go straight to 28nm. At the moment there is a lot of speculation in general about when transistors will stop getting smaller at the rate they are - basically, when Moore's Law will break.

The thing is, that as you get smaller and smaller, aforementioned granularity becomes more apparent. 5nm is only about 40-50 Si atoms across. Some of the vias, sources, and sinks in the transistor itself will be significantly smaller. And as this granularity becomes more apparent, it becomes more and more important to make structures a precise number of atoms across, which makes producing the transistors that much harder. Current chips are made with a certain amount of variability - fabs give chip designers certain requirements for variability and redundancy they need to make sure the chip works when it's built, and smaller processes require less variability and more redundancy. Not to mention that due to the way that fixed vs variable costs work in manufacturing (most of the costs now are fixed - and they are huge) it becomes less and less feasible to transition to newer process nodes each time because you get less profit before you need to switch again, not to mention each node requires more and more R&D money to implement. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this is an untenable situation and something has to break sometime down the line.

Another limitation of smaller things is that quantum effects become more apparent. The whole working premise of a transistor is that some of the time it has to keep some electrons from going places we don't want it to go. Quantum mechanics means that at these scales, tunneling through the dielectric material becomes a real nuisance, and as a result, transistors may turn on when they're not supposed to. Worse, we have no way of predicting where and when this will happen in the chip (there are billions of transistors in modern high-end chips, and this is only going to increase). The only thing we can do is build with this as an inevitability and try to mitigate it as much as possible - which aside from wasting valuable engineer time, kind of mitigates the advantage of going to a smaller process node in the first place.

There are alternatives being researched. IBM is currently going with carbon nanotube transistors, among other solutions (IBM is a company known to have fingers in many, many pies). Various other companies with R&D budgets and a vested interest in the computer industry, such as Intel, AMD, and HP, are researching their own solutions. So far, because of the steadiness of Moore's Law, none of these have yet seen light of day because individual labs working on experimental products can't keep up with the rate of silicon semiconductor progress. In the future though, that may change.

Anyone else with anything to add should chime in with corrections or addenda. I'm not an industry expert or a professional in the area, I'm just an enthusiast with an interest in this kind of thing. If you want more information, Wikipedia has a lot good articles that together paint the kind of picture and provide a good groundwork for what I've talked about. There are also a few very good tech sites that I read which discuss issues like this (this is going completely off topic, but most "tech" sites are designed with typical consumers in mind, and are frankly too vague and waffly for my liking). Anandtech is very good, and realworldtech is likewise very good (though it's updated only once every few weeks/months). Another good site is dailytech, though they're more general-science based - but they still have very good quality articles. Take a look at the article archives of these sites, there will be articles covering this kind of thing.

Yeah, I know. This is really off topic. But I like this kind of thing

EDIT: Wow. This is nearly 1500 words. You'd better appreciate this.
 
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Tiberius

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God does not stop evil because it may be beneficial for our spiritual growth.

Oh, you;ve gotta be kidding me.

How many millions have died at the hands of torturers, government regimes, in war, and you're telling me that it's for their spiritual growth?

First of all, what kind of sick being requires people to suffer horribly to grow spiritually?

Secondly, why doesn't God just snap his fingers and give us everything that comes from that suffering - but without the suffering?

My answer remains the best. God doesn't stop it because he doesn't exist.
 
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Yes very often grief circumstances bring about spiritual growth that we need to attain by suffering.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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God does not stop evil because it may be beneficial for our spiritual growth.

It may also be harmful to our spiritual growth.

I've read a similar suggestion was put forward by Swinburne in a debate. I don't know well all the details, but he suggested something to the effect that the Holocaust gave Jews the opportunity to be noble and courageous. Could there not have been opportunities for nobility and courage in places other than concentration camps? This sort of theological reasoning is rightly dismissed, if not condemned.
 
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I am talking about a spiritual state of an individual person which may I rove if individual goes through hardship.
 
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Tiberius

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Yes very often grief circumstances bring about spiritual growth that we need to attain by suffering.

So God is killing our loved ones, causing hardships and all those other things - just so we can grow?

"Why, yes, I'm killing your wife with cancer, but you'll become stronger for it!"
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I am talking about a spiritual state of an individual person which may I rove if individual goes through hardship.

What kind of hardship do you mean? There was certainly hardship in setting a man on the moon, and in climbing Mount Everest, and in sailing uncharted waters. I think that hardship is different, however, to the hardship suffered by those in concentration camps. Does hardship always promote spiritual growth? Sometimes it can lead to crippling despair, to nightmares, to post-traumatic anxiety, and a plethora of other problems.

I don't think you have a very convincing argument here. Does God permit all manner of evils for the sake of some people maybe experiencing some spiritual growth some of the time and often at the cost of other people? Consider the Flood. According to the Bible, this horrendous act of violence was inflicted on humanity by God. Did he have to cause such terrible suffering just so that Noah and his family could experience spiritual growth? Apparently the destruction of the vast majority of the human species is worth it so long as one man and his family 'grow in the spirit'. What of the command to slaughter Amalek? What spiritual growth did Saul experience as a result of fulfilling that command? What spiritual growth did Amalek experience at the sharp end of the sword?

Are there no other ways in which our spirits may grow and flourish? By contemplating the mysteries of the universe perhaps? By boldly exploring hidden depths in the oceans or traversing the heavens? Can't our spirits ascend through meditation, art and music? No? Our spirits may only grow by means of wanton destruction? By our own destruction?
 
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quatona

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So are you saying I am wrong, even though I think I am being honest, genuine, and remorseful?
No, I said your posts were disingenious and dishonest.
(And, yes, English isn´t my first language. I am pretty positive, though, that this statement didn´t contain any grammatical or other mistakes that rendered it misunderstandable).

If so, then it is your subjective opinion that I have violated an objective moral prescription which states that I should be honest and genuine and remorseful and sympathetic to your views, even if I disgree with them.
No, that´s not what I thought, said or meant to say. You are superimposing your idea of "objective morality" upon my statement. Again, that´s being dishonest and disingenious. Since in your subjective morality you don´t find anything wrong with that, there can´t be a fruitful discussion between you and me.

Are you saying that I have failed to be tolerant even though I should be tolerant?
No, I didn´t say anything about "tolerance" or "should". I said your posts were disingenious and dishonest. I don´t enjoy conversations with people who employ those means. I don´t trust you.
Your questions about what I am saying (when I was very clear in what I said) make me wonder whether English is your first language.
 
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quatona

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No, the reluctance to condemn behaviour as objectively wrong isn´t covered by the definition above.
Being a remorseless liar, however, is.
 
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FatalHeart

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"Assuming that a God who cares about morality exists, we are still left with a monumental epistemic problem, namely how do we obtain knowledge about this God's moral wishes and commands?"

So I guess kudos for ignoring the rest of my post where I talk about seeking God to defend Himself so you can know, instead of following people's claims. A God that cannot be personally verified is a useless God.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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That doesn't resolve the problem though. It may, however, increase a theist's confidence in their moral claims to the point of hubris.
 
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Freodin

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The one thing I have never in any of this debates here seen is a moral absolutist who is capable of not projecting his own position onto his opponent.
 
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FatalHeart

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If God verifies Himself and His own morals, it solves the problem, unless you want to argue with God about it, in which case, I would think He would be awesome at getting you to understand His position.
 
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Freodin

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If God verifies Himself and His own morals, it solves the problem, unless you want to argue with God about it, in which case, I would think He would be awesome at getting you to understand His position.
Oh, I would think so also... it is just that God never answers when I try to have a debate.

It is as you said: a god that cannot be personally verified - that cannot be verified at all - is useless. This is a perfect description for all the gods that humans have ever believed in.
 
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