Why does god allow suffering?

Bron · Jun 24, 2010

My concern was not only with you personally, but generally. Maybe my conflict sensors work over time, but it was on another's behalf. I don't wish to quarrel, particularly in this section of forum, so I'll leave it at that

98cwitr · Jun 24, 2010

I guess, even in my own mind now, I genuinely question why the tree of knowledge was in the garden in the first place...doesn't add up.

aiki · Jun 25, 2010

I guess, even in my own mind now, I genuinely question why the tree of knowledge was in the garden in the first place...doesn't add up.

It had to be there in order for Adam and Eve to be genuinely free moral agents. The tree provided a real choice between good and evil to Adam and Eve. Every day they chose not to eat of its fruit they were choosing to obey their Maker. Without that tree in Eden, Adam and Eve would have had no genuine opportunity to exert their free moral agency. They would have lived obediently to God because there was no way to do otherwise.

Selah.

razeontherock · Jun 25, 2010

Also, if it wasn't there, G-d would have been unfaithful. He can't do that! (Or won't, wtvr)
Evil did exist before Creation, even if only by virtue of what G-d is NOT. His creation has to reflect that truth, since He decided to reveal Himself via Creation.

Now for those that get that and want more:

Lucifer fell before man arrived on the scene. Lucifer was "the cherub that covereth," and we are also told he was a light-bearing being. Yeah, but he covered what?? No, we're not told specifically; but we do know G-d is light, and he refers to evil as darkness. So, in an all-encompassing way, we can infer that Lucifer's "original estate" was to cover evil so nobody would be tempted by it.

Lucifer left said first estate, and it's rather ominous that we're not told about those details. His fallen nature and name is satan, so where does he show up first? You got it, right at the only evil in existence! The tree of the knowledge of good and evil did NOT give Adam and Eve knowledge of good, they already had that, in abundance, for all eternity. So for all practical purposes, it was the sole manifestation of evil. Instead of covering it 'out of sight out of mind' and therefore no temptation, he attempts to conceal it's evilness by making it out to be something good. That's not just satan trying to be cute, that's his fallen nature.

"We are not ignorant of his devices."

This also explains G-d's attitude toward our sin, a la the Prodigal Son. He knows what we're up against, and wants us to WIN!

If our OP ever comes back, imagine what he'll be thinking of what we did to his thread (LOL)

98cwitr · Jun 27, 2010

aiki said:
It had to be there in order for Adam and Eve to be genuinely free moral agents. The tree provided a real choice between good and evil to Adam and Eve. Every day they chose not to eat of its fruit they were choosing to obey their Maker. Without that tree in Eden, Adam and Eve would have had no genuine opportunity to exert their free moral agency. They would have lived obediently to God because there was no way to do otherwise.

Selah.

I've tried to accept this answer in the past, but honestly that then leads me to ask why didn't God just give them the ability in the first place? If God gives Satan the authority and power to even do what he does (see Job), why do we even need Satan in the picture? When clearly we have the ability ourselves to commit sin. If God wants us to win so bad, why create the game in the first place?

Im not trying to point fingers or even say Im mad with God...Im not...just trying to understand because I still don't get it.

aiki · Jun 27, 2010

I've tried to accept this answer in the past, but honestly that then leads me to ask why didn't God just give them the ability in the first place?

Well, I think He did. They couldn't have used their capacity to choose between right and wrong, however, unless and until there was an available concrete choice to be made between the two things. In the paradise that was Eden, the choice between right and wrong, between obeying or disobeying God, required something like the Forbidden Fruit. Without the existence of such a distinct moral alternative, Adam and Eve walking daily with God in the Garden, enjoying the lush environment in which God had placed them, free of sickness or the corruption sin has brought to our world would have had no reason or motive for disobeying their Maker, for exercising their capacity as free moral agents.

If God gives Satan the authority and power to even do what he does (see Job), why do we even need Satan in the picture? When clearly we have the ability ourselves to commit sin. If God wants us to win so bad, why create the game in the first place?

We aren't in the center of God's purposes - He is. God's reasons for doing as He has done with the human race work toward God's revelation and glorification of Himself. In doing as He has done, God demonstrates in awesome measure His justice, holiness, mercy grace and love. I suppose He could have done things differently, but I don't have God's perspective on things and must at some point trust that how things have been done by Him reflect His wisdom and perfection - even when my limited, sin-stained, human perspective may cloud my ability to see that reflection.

Im not trying to point fingers or even say Im mad with God...Im not...just trying to understand because I still don't get it.

We can only understand to a point after which we must "walk by faith."

Selah.

98cwitr · Jun 27, 2010

so what was Satan's role?

aiki · Jun 27, 2010

so what was Satan's role?

Originally, as I'm sure you know, Satan was not the devil we know him to be today. He was an angel serving God in heaven. That was the role intended for him by His Maker. But I think maybe you mean his role in the events that led to Adam and Eve being ejected from Eden, right?

God is demonstrating His divine attributes and power through what Satan is doing here on earth just as He is in the stream of human history. Even Satan's evil efforts are made ultimately to serve God's purposes (think of Judas' betrayal of Christ). This is what it means to be totally sovereign over all things. God doesn't direct Satan to do what is evil, mind you; He didn't make Satan the evil being that he is. Instead, as I understand it, God allows Satan to be who he is and to act as he does.

Though Satan did not intend it, his temptation of Eve in Eden was used by God to set the stage for God's redemption of humanity through Christ. And in this redemption we see the "length, and breadth, and depth and height" of God's tremendous love; we see His absolute holiness and abundant mercy; we see His grace and justice. In the end, Satan is made to serve the same purpose as all of Creation: the glorification and revelation of God.

Selah.

razeontherock · Jun 28, 2010

98cwitr said:
so what was Satan's role?

If my long post above says nothing to you , try this:

It's about glory. Normally if you had two people, one building and one destroying, nothing would ever be completed simply because it's easier and quicker to destroy. We clearly see our destructive impact, yet some still deny it. Yet our world as it is doesn't reflect this overwhelmingly; plants still spring in spring, etc. We're told the next big change is pretty big, us putting on the incorruptible. That would go in the "W" column for G-d!

Proverbs talks about a strongman "rejoicing to run a race." One way of looking at the big picture is that it's like that. Before creation, we see various parts of the Godhead rejoicing.

98cwitr · Jun 28, 2010

I always saw it as the way God relates to the psychology of man...we are unable to understand His Will, therefore we are poised between our own habitations and His divine purpose. We live in a gray world that is, in my mind, the product of a "white" heaven and a "dark" Hell. You mix the two colors and you get gray...I'm just looking for the absolution in it all.

Sir Wilshire · Jun 28, 2010

Agnosticdude, are you still following this thread?

dinonum · Jul 6, 2010

I've been through quite a bit, of course not as much as others and I contest that I have it tons better than the majority of the world, but I have been through quite a few things that I believe count as moments of suffering. I've lost a friend and a daughter, and as I am an empathetic person I have sat in suffering with others who have been through hard times.

Through suffering though, I have seen how strength, love, weakness, pain, affection, recovery, caring, empathy, anger, happiness, joy, etc. work.

Without suffering how would we grow? Learn? Without suffering how can we understand the worth the things in this world?

AgnosticDude777 · Jul 6, 2010

whoops, premature post

razeontherock · Jul 6, 2010

98cwitr said:
We live in a gray world that is, in my mind, the product of a "white" heaven and a "dark" Hell. You mix the two colors and you get gray...I'm just looking for the absolution in it all.

Here's a tip: pray for G-d to form a creative week in your life, just like in Genesis 1. Notice the first thing He did was to separate the light from the darkness. Many believers find this is the way it is, and some have good, valid parallels for the rest of the week too. I'm not sure what all those are

This life, this world, even our own flesh, very much is poised between good and evil, light and darkness, in an ongoing battle. This is universal Truth, accepted by all cultures. Unbelievers like to refer to there being no moral absolute, but in this way the very existence of man's conscience points to the Almighty.

G-d looks for purity in His people.

razeontherock · Jul 6, 2010

manodefuego said:
first, if we go with all the things of the religion i will say because your god is malevolent, and isnt omnipotent,

To say that you have to miss the very essence of Christianity, not "go with all things"

manodefuego said:
but why start with the conflicts if this can be solved by a simple quotation "because the lord is testing your faith"...

This also pretends Christianity is some magic paint brush to wipe away all thought, and become some type of zombie or something. There's been a lot of that on CF lately. *yawn* Why are many of the most intelligent people on the planet Jews?

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