God designed you that way, so the relationship is unidirectional.
He designed you to desire him.
The answer is simple, make life paradisiacal, remove evil, allow everyone into heaven.
Anything else is a manifestation of evil.
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And since you'll probably now go and hop up and down saying that God must be really selfish to make us go through all this so we can love Him. . . No. A) Christians believe that Loving God and being Loved by Him is the best thing that could possibly happen to us.
Because LOVE REQUIRES A FREEWILL!
Yes, folks. I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, and I'll continue to attempt to get this very elementary block of Christian Theology pounded into your brains till my own implodes from your utter insistence on ignoring said premise.
God made evil possible;
(Not to say you're alone here. Just about every single Atheist and other detractor of the Christian faith seems to have about the same understanding.)
Naturally, we've made it impossible to find any.
A spiritual being isn't exactly going to fit in there.
That's the thing though. I really don't think this qualifies. Christian theology hammered out an answer to this centuries ago, and they haven't needed to change their answer yet.
I've always liked this little scene. In the same way that you wouldn't protect your child every second of his life, but would provide him with all the information he needs to be safe and let him follow your instructions as you wish (and possibly punish him for not following them), God does not wish to 'smother' us by completely protecting us from harm; instead, He has given us instructions for how to live our lives (through the Ten Commandments, and the teachings of Jesus) and He now wishes us to interpret His instructions in our own way. He hopes that we will learn from our mistakes, and may occasionally punish us to remind us of how He told us to act.
If we follow them, no evil can touch us,
Would we expect God to be a policeman, to come down every time a wrong, or evil is committed?
We live in an imperfect world, is it God`s fault?
Even if accepting this reasoning for a moment, I still don´t understand why god created those that he knew would use their "freewill" to choose sin. He could have created only those of whom he knew they would choose the right thing. See there: "freewill" plus no evil.I really do not understand at all why so many theological topics are posted here, isn't there a section set aside for theology? You'd probably get a better answer there.
Anyhow, the Christian answer has always been quite simple:
1. God wants us to love him.
2. Freewill is necessary to truly love someone.
3. Freewill implies choice.
4. We don't always make the best choices and often choose to disobey or otherwise ignore God.
5. Said (4.) results in sin.
Yeah, it´s a nice little scene - as long as it isn´t used for one of those infamous god-parent analogies."If you had a child of about 13 years old, would you let him ride his bike?"
"Of course I would."
"Would you make him wear a helmet?"
"Most assuredly."
"Now then, would you follow your child around when he was out on his bike to ensure that he came to no harm?"
"No, I wouldn't."
"How then would you help ensure the safety of your child?"
"I'd give him advice about the dangers of riding his bike, like 'Look both ways before crossing the road,' or 'always wear a helmet,' and let him learn from his mistakes."
Roughly paraphrased from Angels and Demons, by Dan Brown
I've always liked this little scene.
About the imperfect world you all keep talking about, what we atheists can say right back to you is that your own gospel claims God is perfect, so why does he make his creations imperfect? What's the point of that?Yeah, it´s a nice little scene - as long as it isn´t used for one of those infamous god-parent analogies.
I also just wanted to repost this for the new page.Who's to say He didn't? Certainly He knew; He clearly knows that it is worth it.
Because LOVE REQUIRES A FREEWILL! Yes, folks. I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, and I'll continue to attempt to get this very elementary block of Christian Theology pounded into your brains till my own implodes from your utter insistence on ignoring said premise.
I get the feeling that you didn't read my previous post. Or you're just very happy to disregard it. I think this statement summarizes it nicely:
God made evil possible; but free will creatures make evil actual.
That is to say, it didn't have to be this way. In fact, God didn't make it this way--we did. This is again basic theology: the fall and freewill. I suggest you enroll in a Sunday School Class. I mean really, this is such basic theology! (Not to say you're alone here. Just about every single Atheist and other detractor of the Christian faith seems to have about the same understanding.)
How about God makes it so love does not require free will?
You say free will makes evil actual. Why did God make it possible? What is the point?
You say that scientific evidence is different from the evidence of the Christain god, is the "evidence" for the Christain god the same "evidence" for Zues, faries, Santa, Mayan Gods, Egyption Gods, etc?
You say every Non Christain has the same understanding of your religion, I think you have the same delustion of it. Sorry to offend you.
And this.About the imperfect world you all keep talking about, what we atheists can say right back to you is that your own gospel claims God is perfect, so why does he make his creations imperfect? What's the point of that?
Something must have gone wrong here.About the imperfect world you all keep talking about, what we atheists can say right back to you is that your own gospel claims God is perfect, so why does he make his creations imperfect? What's the point of that?
Umm, thank you for your response!Something must have gone wrong here.
I don´t recall talking about the imperfect world, I don´t have a gospel, and I don´t believe in a god, in the first place.
Neither do I see any link between my quote and your response.
Lets talk about that for a second then. First a few assumptions I am making.How about God makes it so love does not require free will?
Your existence makes it possible for me to kill you. And vise versa. In a world with freewill there must be choices. (And as we've discussed a freewill is very much necessary for Love.) The point of making choice was so that people could Love God.You say free will makes evil actual. Why did God make it possible? What is the point?
Of course not. Scientific evidence is entirely material and temporal. The evidence I was referring to is the sort we are using now.You say that scientific evidence is different from the evidence of the Christain god, is the "evidence" for the Christain god the same "evidence" for Zues, faries, Santa, Mayan Gods, Egyption Gods, etc?
That's quite silly. My religion may be a delusion, but my understanding of my religion is not.You say every Non Christain has the same understanding of your religion, I think you have the same delustion of it. Sorry to offend you.
Not if one has a choice in the matter.God designed you that way, so the relationship is unidirectional.
True enough, but He does not force us to.He designed you to desire him.
In said world freewill and thus love is impossible.The answer is simple, make life paradisiacal, remove evil, allow everyone into heaven.
Except that without love there is no good.Anything else is a manifestation of evil.
Only because god requires that. God could just as easily made it so love is possible without free-will.
And you continue to ignore omnipotence.
You set out a kinfe in front of a baby. The baby grabs the knife and kills itself. Does the fact that the baby didn't have to kill itself change at all the fact that you gave it the kinfe?
You'd think, with so many oppurtunities, someone would be able to come up with a defense to the problem of evil. Yet, they still haven't. I wonder why?
You're a fool to assume that atheists will only accept scientific evidence.
Which, you know, is the whole point of a philosophy board.
It has been. You guys act like I have said absolutely nothing. Which brings up the question:Really? What is it, and why have you taken so long to present it?
A world with a will is better than one without one. Like all those corny ads say, choice is good.
That is to say, when loving God is an instinct we cannot love Him. (Note that this wouldn't apply to loving others).
And as we've discussed a freewill is very much necessary for Love.
In said world freewill and thus love is impossible.
Except that without love there is no good.
First off we're not babies;
Indeed, it's closer to giving us hydrogen bombs and VX.Secondly, making evil possible is not analogous to giving us a knife.
I read them all. I though I addressed them. If I have skimmed over something, please point it out.I rather think you haven't. If you respond to this post please mention that you did read all the way through, otherwise I won't bother to respond because having to say the exact same thing again and again is getting annoying.
"If you had a child of about 13 years old, would you let him ride his bike?"
"Would you make him wear a helmet?"
"Now then, would you follow your child around when he was out on his bike to ensure that he came to no harm?"
An experience probably everyone here shares. No need to shout.It has been. You guys act like I have said absolutely nothing. Which brings up the question:
HAVE ANY OF YOU BOTHERED TO READ MY POST(S) ALL THE WAY THROUGH?
I rather think you haven't. If you respond to this post please mention that you did read all the way through, otherwise I won't bother to respond because having to say the exact same thing again and again is getting annoying.
Yes, well, one can generally tell when your post has been read through. I was just getting rather angry because my statements were being taken out of context and a few straw men were being set up--both of which really anger me. For the record, I've read all of any post that I bother to quote and probably very little else.An experience probably everyone here shares. No need to shout.
If you find yourself repeating yourself over and over there are several possible reasons conceivable for this.
Hadn't seen it. I started my post typed for five minutes, did 4 hours of homework and finished it. I hate cal.I haven´t seen anything in your post that answered my question from post #28. If I have missed it, please point me to it (preferably in a moderate font size).
If you mean He should only have made humans who would choose the right thing then the simple answer is that there are none. But of course that is something of a cop-out.Even if accepting this reasoning for a moment, I still don´t understand why god created those that he knew would use their "freewill" to choose sin. He could have created only those of whom he knew they would choose the right thing. See there: "freewill" plus no evil.
Unsupported assertion. You've never seen a world without free-will (or a world with free-will, depending on what this world actually has). As such, you can't make a comparison.
You do realize that maternal love is an instinct, right? Just because the love is caused by instinct, does not make it any less real.
No. Read what I said to quatona and my freewill arguments--which I am still not altogether sure you have read. I'm not someone that holds that God will/can do the logically impossible, ie that He can give me an apple and at the same time not give me that same apple. Mayhaps you think I am, as I know a number of Christians on these forums think God can.ONLY BECAUSE GOD MADE IT THAT WAY!! This is what I'm talking about when I say you're ignoring omnipotence; freewill need not be required for love. The only reason it possibly could be is because god made it that way.
Prove that freewill is logically required for love.
More unsupported assertion.
Compared to god, we are.
Indeed, it's closer to giving us hydrogen bombs and VX.
You skimmed over the main block of my argument:I read them all. I though I addressed them. If I have skimmed over something, please point it out.
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