Why does evolution not make sense to you?

[Chris Blanks]

Evolution. The crowning achievement in human history. I would like to know why most people here do not believe in this amazing discovery even with all of the proof and evidence that makes this "theory"(In some people thinking) basically a fact. So please explain to me why you don't believe in evolution and why it does not make sense to you. If you could I would also like you to explain what you believe and why it makes more sense than evolution, if it makes sense at all.
Extreme detail would be nice.

 

[Girder of Loins]

I neither deny nor agree with evolution. It does have a lot of "evidence", but it has never been observed on a macro scale. Because of this, I choose not to support it whole-heartedly. Not only may it not be true, but I do not want to cause strife within the Church. So those are my thoughts on the ToE.

 

[Chris Blanks]

I neither deny nor agree with evolution. It does have a lot of "evidence", but it has never been observed on a macro scale. Because of this, I choose not to support it whole-heartedly. Not only may it not be true, but I do not want to cause strife within the Church. So those are my thoughts on the ToE.

Why does it have to be observed on a macro scale for you(and many others) to believe it? I think that a lot of people have trouble wrapping their heads around the idea of something happening over such a long time, 25 million years, when they only live 90 years or so. How old do you think the universe is? How do you think humanity came to fruition(you seem to be on the fence about evolution)? What do you mean by " I choose not to support it whole-heartedly.

 

[shabbo148]

I agree with a bit of both.
But some things in evolution arn't completely proven, they still havnt found the link to monkeys and humans.
I know you could now easily ask why i need so much proof for evolution, and not religion, but that is why religion is called a faith, whereas evolution isnt.

In the end it doesn't really matter anyway... historys history. It doesn't affect us if we believe in something real or fake. We could go on for decades about evolution & religion.

Even if god doesn't actually exist it doesn't cost an arm or a leg to believe in him. It just gives us something good to live for.

For all we know god coulda just created earth.. and then evolution could have started itself. We could both be right?

 

[Chris Blanks]

I agree with a bit of both.
But some things in evolution arn't completely proven, they still havnt found the link to monkeys and humans.
I know you could now easily ask why i need so much proof for evolution, and not religion, but that is why religion is called a faith, whereas evolution isnt.

In the end it doesn't really matter anyway... historys history. It doesn't affect us if we believe in something real or fake. We could go on for decades about evolution & religion.

Even if god doesn't actually exist it doesn't cost an arm or a leg to believe in him. It just gives us something good to live for.

For all we know god coulda just created earth.. and then evolution could have started itself. We could both be right?

You just lost all credibility when you mentioned monkeys. Humans are apes just like chimpanzees, orangutans, and gorillas. We are actually really closely related to chimps. Our most recent common ancestor that we share with apes lived 6 million years ago, and it probably was very gorilla like in appearance. Monkeys aren't as closely related to humans as you think. Our most recent common ancestor we monkeys lived around 25 million years ago, but monkeys haven't evolved nearly as much, that ancestor would look very much like a monkey of today. There really are no missing links. Evolution is basically a proven fact.

 

[Girder of Loins]

On a side-note, when you look at DNA, we are more related to pigs and their family then to apes and gorillas. But it all depends on the classification system, I guess.

Anyways, I know evolution takes a really long time. And I know it is only in gradual changes. I know that the current theory is that there is no micro vs macro. There is only evolution. Like you pointed out, I am on the fence. I do not want to cause strife or enmity between me and my brothers/sisters in the Faith, and I do not have considerable amount of proof for evolution, so I choose not to deny it, nor support it. This also answers your question regarding the age of the earth. If evolution is right, then the earth is very old. If evolution is not, then the earth is less than 10,000 years old(unless something like the Gap Theory is right).

 

[Chris Blanks]

Your side note is a misinterpretation. All mammals on earth(you could even extend this to all animals) have evolved from a single cellular being. This means that everything animal on earth is going to share the majority of their genes with each other. In actually we have a more recent common ancestor with primates than Artiodactylas(Pig, boars et cetera).
I would like a definite answer form you. How old do YOU personally think the universe is and how did humanity come to fruition?

 

[Girder of Loins]

Honestly, I have no idea. I grew up thinking it was young and evolution was not true. But then someone discussed it with me, and I realized that evolution and an old earth don't actually contradict the Bible. This was very recent, so I am still considering. At this point, I would like to go with evolution and an old earth. I just don't want to be wrong about this, as this is a very controversial concept in my inner circle of friends. They don't like the idea at all. So I tread lightly. On here, however, I guess I can be more open. I'm about 70% for evolution.

And there isn't one thing in particular I'm struggling with, its the entire concept. You can't really believe one part of evolution and not another. Its a package deal. So it would be a complete overhaul of my ideas on the Creation account in Genesis, and most of the OT in general. Quite a scary undertaking, but if evolution is true, who am I not to believe the truth?

 

[Chris Blanks]

You sound like Shane did about a year ago. He was in a state of unknowingness and transition

 

[ChristianT]

Honestly, I have no idea. I grew up thinking it was young and evolution was not true. But then someone discussed it with me, and I realized that evolution and an old earth don't actually contradict the Bible. This was very recent, so I am still considering. At this point, I would like to go with evolution and an old earth. I just don't want to be wrong about this, as this is a very controversial concept in my inner circle of friends. They don't like the idea at all. So I tread lightly. On here, however, I guess I can be more open. I'm about 70% for evolution.

And there isn't one thing in particular I'm struggling with, its the entire concept. You can't really believe one part of evolution and not another. Its a package deal. So it would be a complete overhaul of my ideas on the Creation account in Genesis, and most of the OT in general. Quite a scary undertaking, but if evolution is true, who am I not to believe the truth?

I've had a similar take with the crevolution debate, and my stance "shifts with the crowd," you could say. When or if I debate the topic with non-Christians, I would argue the possibility of evolution with some sort of Creation (in that it seems illogical to me that life could, with some effort, nitrogen, and heat, come from molecules that clump together to form special acids and over any amount of time become a living organism). But when arguing the topic within the Church (of course also citing the Law of Liberty, Romans 11), I have the position that "Theistic Evolution" is the best way to interpret relevant scripture, since scientists can merge genes of different species together and get some traits from one to appear in another. Plus, a hard, word-fer-word literal translation just doesn't seem too healthy in most senses...the moral of the story: this world and universe was Created, and that Creator is God (a.k.a. YHVH, YHVH Adonai, etc.).

Also girder, I'm not too open about my stance around my friends just because I'd rather my church be a body of believers who can come together in unity rather than a body which debates a bunch of non-salvific but very interesting topics. But be strong in your wrestling with both evolution and God.

 

[ChristianT]

Also Chris, why is evolution the "crowning achievement of human history?"
I'd say some pretty close contenders would be the inventions of tangible modes of human flight (*cough* airplanes, space shuttles *cough*), automatic chariots which would require less energy (though it's ruining the world lol), Internet (connection worldwide, of course it could be argued this is a flaw and is turning out to be one ), and I'm sure I could think of more

 

[Amiable16]

I was searching for an answer this question as I didn't fully understand it so just accepted what science was feeding me . Now I don't believe that evolution can't exist outside Pokemon. I believe in the Kalam cosmological argument.
1. Everything that began to exist must have a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. Therefore the universe must have a cause.

 

[Girder of Loins]

I've had a similar take with the crevolution debate, and my stance "shifts with the crowd," you could say. When or if I debate the topic with non-Christians, I would argue the possibility of evolution with some sort of Creation (in that it seems illogical to me that life could, with some effort, nitrogen, and heat, come from molecules that clump together to form special acids and over any amount of time become a living organism). But when arguing the topic within the Church (of course also citing the Law of Liberty, Romans 11), I have the position that "Theistic Evolution" is the best way to interpret relevant scripture, since scientists can merge genes of different species together and get some traits from one to appear in another. Plus, a hard, word-fer-word literal translation just doesn't seem too healthy in most senses...the moral of the story: this world and universe was Created, and that Creator is God (a.k.a. YHVH, YHVH Adonai, etc.).

Also girder, I'm not too open about my stance around my friends just because I'd rather my church be a body of believers who can come together in unity rather than a body which debates a bunch of non-salvific but very interesting topics. But be strong in your wrestling with both evolution and God.

This is pretty much my stance on Theistic Evolution, just worded way better than I could.

 

[Girder of Loins]

I was searching for an answer this question as I didn't fully understand it so just accepted what science was feeding me . Now I don't believe that evolution can't exist outside Pokemon. I believe in the Kalam cosmological argument.
1. Everything that began to exist must have a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. Therefore the universe must have a cause.

The Kalam is used against the Big Bang and whatnot. Evolution doesn't even talk about how life started(although Darwin tried), it talks about the evolution of pre-existing species.

Anywho, welcome to CF!

 

[Amiable16]

The Kalam is used against the Big Bang and whatnot. Evolution doesn't even talk about how life started(although Darwin tried), it talks about the evolution of pre-existing species.

Anywho, welcome to CF!

Cheers man.

I think scientifically my biggest issue with the evolution theory is irreducibly complex structures. Organs that are so complicated that
1. every single part is vital and indispensable
2. all parts must be present at all times
3. everything must work perfectly straight away
Darwin stated that "my theory would break down if such organs were to be discovered." Well they have, and a great deal of them at that. For example the eye the bird's wing, the chloroplast, the knee joint and the bacterium. If you take a look at the bacterium you can see it's an extremely complex structure. Such a bacterium is an irreducibly complex structure. Therefore by Darwins own words his theory breaks down .

 

[Girder of Loins]

Cheers man.

I think scientifically my biggest issue with the evolution theory is irreducibly complex structures. Organs that are so complicated that
1. every single part is vital and indispensable
2. all parts must be present at all times
3. everything must work perfectly straight away
Darwin stated that "my theory would break down if such organs were to be discovered." Well they have, and a great deal of them at that. For example the eye the bird's wing, the chloroplast, the knee joint and the bacterium. If you take a look at the bacterium you can see it's an extremely complex structure. Such a bacterium is an irreducibly complex structure. Therefore by Darwins own words his theory breaks down .

Yeah, which is why, IMO, evolution only makes sense with a Creator. God created everything to work perfectly right off the bat, then evolution started. Thankfully, evolution doesn't contradict the Genesis account, otherwise I wouldn't agree with ToE at all.

 

[Chris Blanks]

Also Chris, why is evolution the "crowning achievement of human history?"
I'd say some pretty close contenders would be the inventions of tangible modes of human flight (*cough* airplanes, space shuttles *cough*), automatic chariots which would require less energy (though it's ruining the world lol), Internet (connection worldwide, of course it could be argued this is a flaw and is turning out to be one ), and I'm sure I could think of more

I would say that evolution is the crowning achievement of human because it gave us the explanation for how we got here. Isn't that what we have always wanted to know?

I was searching for an answer this question as I didn't fully understand it so just accepted what science was feeding me . Now I don't believe that evolution can't exist outside Pokemon. I believe in the Kalam cosmological argument.
1. Everything that began to exist must have a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. Therefore the universe must have a cause.

I think the problem with that argument is that you are assuming that everything has a cause. And with Socrates' logic you can almost prove anything.
I say that I am god
God's word is to be taken as fact
Therefore I am god.
This can also be used to create paradoxes.

Cheers man.

I think scientifically my biggest issue with the evolution theory is irreducibly complex structures. Organs that are so complicated that
1. every single part is vital and indispensable
2. all parts must be present at all times
3. everything must work perfectly straight away
Darwin stated that "my theory would break down if such organs were to be discovered." Well they have, and a great deal of them at that. For example the eye the bird's wing, the chloroplast, the knee joint and the bacterium. If you take a look at the bacterium you can see it's an extremely complex structure. Such a bacterium is an irreducibly complex structure. Therefore by Darwins own words his theory breaks down .

Yeah, which is why, IMO, evolution only makes sense with a Creator. God created everything to work perfectly right off the bat, then evolution started. Thankfully, evolution doesn't contradict the Genesis account, otherwise I wouldn't agree with ToE at all.

I think what you guys aren't getting is that
everything on this earth is relatively simple in the scope of the universe. Things such as black holes, neutron stars, wormholes(if they exist) et cetera, are way more complex than us. The flaws you see in the life of today make perfect sense through evolution, think about natural selection, the weak die off and the strong live on, getting strong and striving towards perfection. I would bet all the money that I will ever make in my life that there are other intelligent species in the universe as a result of evolution, that are far closer to perfection that we are. I would also tend to believe that a all powerful creator would not have flaws in his creation.

 

[ChristianT]

...The flaws you see in the life of today make perfect sense through evolution, think about natural selection, the weak die off and the strong live on, getting strong and striving towards perfection. I would bet all the money that I will ever make in my life that there are other intelligent species in the universe as a result of evolution, that are far closer to perfection that we are. I would also tend to believe that a all powerful creator would not have flaws in his creation.

Except, you know as well as I do that that's not what evolution says. Natural selection states that the best fit organism will pass on it's genes. Whether or not "perfection" or "strength" is present depends on how the genes mutate (change) compared to the parents. Either way, not all evolutions bring better organisms.

A strong analogy (which is completely valid) can be drawn from Pokemon, as someone referenced earlier. Say I have a caterpie. I want a butterfree. Why? Maybe it could fly so I don't have to walk. Great. But some things like mantykes, when they evolve into manines, become more vulnerable to the elements. They would die out if it were the real world. While this may sound ludicrous, evolution does not have a divine plan. ('Course, with a Christian perspective, it does in the long run) Even in the realm of Pokemon, there is no "perfect one" that just beats them all. Each is vulnerable to another type.

Of course, you may have been referring to the strength of the organism's ability to adapt, in which case I'd agree. But sheer strength, muscle mass, and "perfection," whatever you meant, cannot and will not be attained through evolution alone.

I apologize if I misunderstood you, I just am fervent about many things, and honesty is one of them

 

[Girder of Loins]

I would say that evolution is the crowning achievement of human because it gave us the explanation for how we got here. Isn't that what we have always wanted to know?

Evolution has nothing to do with how life began, it simply has to do with how one species slowly changed into another.

 

[Chris Blanks]

@Girder what are you talking about? Evolution as we know it today explains the origins of life.
@ChristainT I was referring to a species ability to adapt as well as erase it flaws or develop advantages, such as opposable thumbs. And actually Arcurus(I have no idea how it is spelt) is a perfect Pokemon. I think that perfect could be attained through evolution alone, but I don't think that we have enough time left in the universe to see that happen.