Why does evil exist?

[DarrelDesoto]

I have a question that has plagued me for a long time. I have asked Christians, including ministers, preachers, and PhD theology professors, and none of them have given me an answer I can understand. They always end up telling me that we just can't know the answer. Perhaps someone in this forum could help me. Here's my question:

A basic Christian belief is that God exists and that He is omniscient (knows everything), omnipotent (can do anything), and benevolent (is compassionate and wants only good things to happen). Yet, very bad things happen to very good people all the time. For purposes of this discussion, we will call things like the Dec 26, 2004 tidal wave that killed over 200,000 people of all faiths, "Evil". So, why does God allow these things to occur? Why does God allow Evil to exist?

I have been told, "Well, God does not do Evil, the Devil does Evil." But, according to the Bible, God created everything, even the Devil. So why did God create the Devil to do Evil?

I've been told, "Well, it's just all part of God's Great Plan and not for us to question." That response is just saying, "Don't ask questions, just believe what I tell you." If God doesn't want us to understand, then why did He give us a brain to understand with? (I am reminded of a tag line I once read: If God had wanted me to think for myself, He would have given me a brain and a little bit of curiosity.) But, as I asked of one preacher, "So you're telling me that your God is so incompetent, so devoid of imagination, so impotent, that He cannot think of any other way to achieve His Master Plan than to destroy the lives of nearly a quarter of a million people, plus untold suffering of the injured, their families and their friends." He pursed his lips, glared at me, and walked away without answering. I really wasn't trying to be disrespectful or argumentative, and I said it very nicely, but I wanted an answer that made sense.

A popular saying among Christians is, "There are no atheists in foxholes." Well, of course not. When you believe you are about to die at any second, you'll grab for any hope at all, no matter how remote. You will beg whatever powers there may be to save you from a horrible, agonizing death and you'll disparately hope someone will answer. I'll bet there were no atheists in that tidal wave either, yet over 200,000 non-atheists were begging their God(s) to save them from certain death. Not one God responded. Not one God had the compassion, the awareness, or the power to answer their desperate prayers. After years of loyal devotion and sacrifice...nothing. For all their faith, for all their prayers, they might as well have been atheists.

In his book, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict", the Christian writer Josh McDowel wrote, "The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind cannot believe." Personally, I find it very difficult to believe that a God who is capable of creating the entire Universe, the vast distances, the vast matter and energy, and all the Laws of Nature, would really be so inept and callous as to allow such Evil to exist. Nor do I believe He would create a being to do His dirty work for Him. I cannot believe in such a God, so my heart could never rejoice in such a God.

For me, that is the central question mark of Christianity. Personally, I just could never serve such an Evil Being as one that would knowingly, purposely, with no regret, destroy half a million people just to keep His Great Plan on schedule. Perhaps some people have no problem with that, no doubts, no regrets, no wondering in the middle of the night, "Am I really on the right side here?", "Is this really the God I want to serve?" To serve, without question, without regret, without remorse, no matter what heinous deeds are done? That's not for me. Is that really for you?

So, why does God allow such things to occur? Does He have no better Plan than that?

Or, could it be that whatever God or gods there may be are either not omnipotent, or not omniscient, or not benevolent? Could it be that God is not perfect, not in total control? Or, could it be that there is no God. That everything happens according to natural, physical law? That the tidal wave was a tragic convergence of natural forces beyond any control? However you look at it, the description of the Christian God given in the Bible and accepted by all Christians simply doesn't jive with the existence of Evil (whether done directly by God, or by his front-man, the Devil). We can just refuse to try to answer the question. Just accept what we've been told since childhood. Never wonder about it. Refuse to discuss it. That's one thing we can do. Or, we can face the question. Ask ourselves. Ask each other. Ask our preachers and ministers and PhD theologians. And, perhaps, when enough of them have told us not to ask, told us just to accept without question, just pursed their lips, glared, and walked away...maybe, we'll begin to wonder: Is this really right?

So, for those who wonder how anyone could possibly be an atheist...that's one reason right there.

I look forward to your salvos.

Respectfully,
Darrel.

 

[DarrelDesoto]

Live4HimAndLoveOthers said (elsewhere): "I would also like to recommend the excellent book "The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis. I think you would find some good answers to your questions in that book."

Thank you for the reference, but I would like to ask you a favor, if you wouldn't mind: Would you be so kind as to summarize Mr. Lewis' main points for me. If they sound like something I haven't heard before, then I'll be willing to take a look at the book. If they are the same old arguments I've been hearing for years, then there would be no need to pursue his writings further.

Also, to respond to some implied questions/suggestions in the post(s) from the other forum, my main purpose in asking the question is to find an answer that I can understand and accept. I have never had any interest in debating any subject just for the "joy" of debating. Having an education and background in science, my goal is always self-education via deep, intense, and careful probing of whatever subject matter has currently caught my attention.

Thanks,
Darrel.

 

[tapero]

I have a question that has plagued me for a long time. I have asked Christians, including ministers, preachers, and PhD theology professors, and none of them have given me an answer I can understand. They always end up telling me that we just can't know the answer. Perhaps someone in this forum could help me. Here's my question:

A basic Christian belief is that God exists and that He is omniscient (knows everything), omnipotent (can do anything), and benevolent (is compassionate and wants only good things to happen). Yet, very bad things happen to very good people all the time. For purposes of this discussion, we will call things like the Dec 26, 2004 tidal wave that killed over 200,000 people of all faiths, "Evil". So, why does God allow these things to occur? Why does God allow Evil to exist?

I have been told, "Well, God does not do Evil, the Devil does Evil." But, according to the Bible, God created everything, even the Devil. So why did God create the Devil to do Evil?

I've been told, "Well, it's just all part of God's Great Plan and not for us to question." That response is just saying, "Don't ask questions, just believe what I tell you." If God doesn't want us to understand, then why did He give us a brain to understand with? (I am reminded of a tag line I once read: If God had wanted me to think for myself, He would have given me a brain and a little bit of curiosity.) But, as I asked of one preacher, "So you're telling me that your God is so incompetent, so devoid of imagination, so impotent, that He cannot think of any other way to achieve His Master Plan than to destroy the lives of nearly a quarter of a million people, plus untold suffering of the injured, their families and their friends." He pursed his lips, glared at me, and walked away without answering. I really wasn't trying to be disrespectful or argumentative, and I said it very nicely, but I wanted an answer that made sense.

A popular saying among Christians is, "There are no atheists in foxholes." Well, of course not. When you believe you are about to die at any second, you'll grab for any hope at all, no matter how remote. You will beg whatever powers there may be to save you from a horrible, agonizing death and you'll disparately hope someone will answer. I'll bet there were no atheists in that tidal wave either, yet over 200,000 non-atheists were begging their God(s) to save them from certain death. Not one God responded. Not one God had the compassion, the awareness, or the power to answer their desperate prayers. After years of loyal devotion and sacrifice...nothing. For all their faith, for all their prayers, they might as well have been atheists.

In his book, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict", the Christian writer Josh McDowel wrote, "The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind cannot believe." Personally, I find it very difficult to believe that a God who is capable of creating the entire Universe, the vast distances, the vast matter and energy, and all the Laws of Nature, would really be so inept and callous as to allow such Evil to exist. Nor do I believe He would create a being to do His dirty work for Him. I cannot believe in such a God, so my heart could never rejoice in such a God.

For me, that is the central question mark of Christianity. Personally, I just could never serve such an Evil Being as one that would knowingly, purposely, with no regret, destroy half a million people just to keep His Great Plan on schedule. Perhaps some people have no problem with that, no doubts, no regrets, no wondering in the middle of the night, "Am I really on the right side here?", "Is this really the God I want to serve?" To serve, without question, without regret, without remorse, no matter what heinous deeds are done? That's not for me. Is that really for you?

So, why does God allow such things to occur? Does He have no better Plan than that?

Or, could it be that whatever God or gods there may be are either not omnipotent, or not omniscient, or not benevolent? Could it be that God is not perfect, not in total control? Or, could it be that there is no God. That everything happens according to natural, physical law? That the tidal wave was a tragic convergence of natural forces beyond any control? However you look at it, the description of the Christian God given in the Bible and accepted by all Christians simply doesn't jive with the existence of Evil (whether done directly by God, or by his front-man, the Devil). We can just refuse to try to answer the question. Just accept what we've been told since childhood. Never wonder about it. Refuse to discuss it. That's one thing we can do. Or, we can face the question. Ask ourselves. Ask each other. Ask our preachers and ministers and PhD theologians. And, perhaps, when enough of them have told us not to ask, told us just to accept without question, just pursed their lips, glared, and walked away...maybe, we'll begin to wonder: Is this really right?

So, for those who wonder how anyone could possibly be an atheist...that's one reason right there.

I look forward to your salvos.

Respectfully,
Darrel.

Hi, Probably what I say you've heard before.

God created all there is including humans and angels.

Gave us free will

both sinned against God, satan sinning first taking 1/3 of the angels with him (now called demons)

satan tempted eve, who Eve probably would've done so without being tempted as God gave man free will.

or she could've eaten from the Tree of Life first also, which we don't know what the result of that would have been, but it would have been good.

when man fell, God guarded the tree of life, by putting sworded angels around it, so that man would not eat of that tree and forever live in his sin.

So we have satan and demons and we ourselves sin and do evil as well.

when i sin, i can assure you, it's me doing it, not satan doing it.

can't speak for all humans but basically that's what occurs.

We do know satan is a murderer, deciever and liar

So, God made his creation, and gave all free will.

With that some angels and men sinned.
death occured when adam and eve ate the fruit, they sinned and hid from God, and began a need to reconcile to God, and now they would die where apparently before they may have never died. But a spiritual death occured between God and man when adam and eve sinned.

That is the spiritual connection with God.
God kills an animal to provide covering for adam and eve; covering is also symbolic of what Jesus did for our sins, he covered our sins with His blood.
Adam and Eve sent out of garden
earth cursed (man will toil by sweat of brow and will produce thorns and thistles) wasnt' meant to be this way.

God had already created; so weather occured and we don't know what type of things such as flooding etc, tsunamis, earthquakes, we've no clue if they occurred early on, i would assume they did so, but I don't know.

Next story is cain and abel..murder occurs (evil) no one made cain murder abel, God even warned him:

Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

cain gave into his desire and murdered.
other stories, babel, sodom and gomorrah etc.

Then on we go, God chooses Israel to be His people to reveal himself to and thru and gave them strict laws and He was manifested with them and they knew it was God and that He was with them.

Even though they have Gods very manifestation they finally turn from God and dont' trust him or believe in Him (but they do know he exists), and they turn to idols.

Of course much more goes on in the ot.

Then Jesus comes, teaches, heals, forgives, and much more and dies for our sin and is resurrected.

All that believe in him are forgiven sin.

Until the final judgement evil will be in this world, as long as man is in this world so will evil.

A new heaven and earth will be created in the end after judgment.

God is all powerful, but he doesn't go against our will.

Even satan had in his heart the dastardly things he wished to do to Job, God knew what was in satans heart and said 'do not touch his life'

He didn't stop this free will being to do the evil he had on his mind to do, same as he doesn't stop man doing the evil he has on his mind to do.

There may be many times God does intervene, but we do not know it, because we can not see behind the curtain where the spiritual realm exists. I am fairly sure God intervened many times in my life before I was a Christian.

why doesn't he always intervene? We don't know.

God says our battle is not against flesh and blood but against wickedness in high places, etc..meaning angels and demons are warring over every one of us and over the world.

We don't know anything but the very little revealed about such.

In Job in chapter one and two you'll see satan uses weather to kill and destroy.

God desires all men to know Him.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

.

Evil happens in this world, cause of man, demons, the fallen world.

Sickness, old age, poverty, drought, floods all such and more occur to man.

God doesn't cause men to suffer. In the OT we see God use many judgements on certain nations, and man. At times illness was sent by God. And many things at Gods command or direct doing did occur. God is not evil at all, He is good; but what He does is for whatever reasons which we can not know, since not all is given us, but is either for his purposes to be accomplished and for mankinds good.

When we judge God and call Him evil because one thinks they would be better than God and more lovnig then God and would not do some things God has done, being the created one, created in Gods image, in no way can man be better than God.

But many believe they know better cause they would never do what God has done, not realizing that they are the created.

We now are in a time of grace. When Jesus came He did not come to judge. Now, since the majority Jews turned away and rejected God, Jesus came to the Jews, they too rejected God, and now is the time of the Gentiles (non jews) though any man can come to Christ.

We see no illness sent in the nt, no judging except in end times, and God does not send suffering to people; again even some christians believe he does so says it drew them closer hence God sent it, if that works, then every human would be struck with something to draw them to God..no he doenst work that way..as many are struck with illness or tragedy and do not come to God..

It makes no sense that people think God send any evil or wipes out a tiny town in kansas in a tornado cause one guy sinned, or a plane crashes cause of the sin of one man, etc. and on and on..God does not do such; for if such worked then all men would turn to him after tragedies, illness etc, and we know all men do not turn to him.

And during the end times we will see the Jews come to Christ in numbers. We will not be here when such occurs, that is if one believes the rapture is the next in history to occur (which I believe), which removes all believers from earth.

Any non christians would remain on the earth and go thru the tribulation time, which is the start of when the Jews will come to Christ. Then there's more, but enough on that.

People say God allows all things to occur. many get this from the book of Job, where he did not stop satan from doing satans free will. God does not say to a rapist, to rape that baby. Even Christians get mixed up and say God allows all things..No we are free will creatures.

He allows in the sense that we exist and breathe, and have water and food, but no, we are free will creatures.

Even Job thought God took away his children and other things, cause he didn't know what we know, that satan did it:

"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart. [c]
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."

God did not take away, satan did.

and again Job says when more disaster happens:

Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"

God did not send the trouble, satan did..we know cause we read the book but this is what job thought, cause he did not know what was occuring in the spiritual realm as we too do not know. Such is similar to what many believers think as well. which is why many turn from God when they are suffering cause they think God caused it, allowed it, etc..

We again, don't know when or if he intervenes. We don't know if he's stopped atom bombs from going off, we've no clue to what he does but that he works all things to the good of those who believe..

We have many promises from God..but we will suffer as we are in this world, same as any man suffers.

God did not create satan or man to do evil. He created all things good.

Why doesn't God just end it all now? We don't know his timing, but we do know He wants all men to come to know Him and in matthew 24 Jesus talks about signs of the end of the age; which I believe refers to what kicks off the tribulation time as well as the tribulation.

if God stopped all evil no human would be left. He is merciful.. All men are sinners, even Christians, to eliminate evil, he'd have to eliminate all of us.

He won't do so, again we don't know his timing, until when he will bring an end during the end times.

We don't have the mind of God to know when things will occur.

It's okay that you think God should have a different plan. But since you're not God you can't put a plan you might create into practice.

the plan would typically eliminate evil and again then, all humans would be wiped off the earth if you put such a plan in effect.

Since you don't believe in God you have no insight into who He is except your understanding of that you think he is evil and He is not evil.

Not much anyone can do about how you feel and think of God.

sorry so long,
blessings,
tapero

 

[Digit]

Hello Darrel,

Thanks for dropping by and offering asking us for our input.

I think in a short way, I can explain how I imagine it be with a simple analogy. This comes quite easy to me, as my day job is actually a game designer. So, let's look at that for a moment. When designers create a game we set about creating rules and mechanics so that players can play and have fun. As people play, they learn that these rules and mechanics can be used for other purposes that we have not intended them to be used for, even though we may have been aware of them. Through such, these players can cause grief and harass other players.

To move this into the Biblical realm, God created everything for us with an intent. Just like sex is intended for a married couple and the foundation that comes with it, God created with intent and I think this is the plan that people talk to you about.

We have free will to choose our path however, and the tree in the Garden of Eden (whether figurative or imaginative) housed knowledge of how this intent can be circumvented. The circumvention of this intent, is what I believe you to be referring to as 'evil'. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, we inherited this knowledge of how to circumvent God's intent for His design. You have no doubt read the Bible passages that talk of sin entering the world. I think sin is an archery term (at it's root) and it means 'to miss the mark'. Which supports my understanding that despite God's intent, we miss the mark due to the knowledge that we inherited.

Prior to that, I don't think anything of that nature would have occurred to us to do, yet now we have all these decisions, "Do I lie? Do I steal? Do I get angry? Should I forgive?" and so on. Prior to this, I don't think we had knowledge of a 'lie' of 'anger' of 'theft'.

So... this is turning out longer than I expected. I don't think there is a short version hehe. Anyhow, God can only intervene in our lives to a certain degree before He becomes a babysitter. What do we learn of our mistakes, if we do not witness and endure the result? What do I learn of adultery, if God swoops down and makes everything ok again, takes away the pain and fixes the relationship right up and so on? Think about a child that tries to touch a flame, and burns himself and experiences pain. If God undid that, the next time the child saw a flame he would do it again, and again and so on. We need to see the consequence of our actions, to understand what they cause. I know from the times that I have lied, that it's not the right thing to do, that it can cause huge problems and impact other people's lives quite badly. That's a tame example, but sin draws from every aspect in life.

To address your example of evil, the natural disaster is a difficult one, as it occurs on such a large scale, yet we know that God (from reading the Bible) does not favour the many over the few, He cares about each and every individual. Just as natural disasters happen, so do evil people commit evil acts without God's intervention. These individuals are no less important to God, yet God still allows the effects of sin to impact the world. All these instances I believe can have enormous good effect. People can look at their lives differently, they can experience great fellowship from all sorts of agencies and societies bring aid to those that are in need. It provides opportunities for us to act and uphold Christ's integrity and pray and witness and lead people to salvation. It is clear from Ecclesiasties that God holds little importance on this life, as all will be undone one day, yet He says that through Him we are to find pleasure in it.

We cannot presume to know what the outcome is of those who perish in such things, as we are told not to put forward theories on God's judgement. Yet we can have faith in God, that even when we may not understand or like something, that He knows best and we will submit to His will.

Perhaps this is not a satisfying answer for you, if so I'm sorry but I don't pretend to hold all the answers, and I think "I don't know." is equally as valid an answer as what is written here. But the fall of humanity and the impact of sin on the world has effects on everything, it was not God who explicitly created these things to cause us suffering, but us who brought sin into the world.

Also I can point out that people are often quite blind in their lives. We build homes on known fault lines, invest money into entertainment instead of weather detection and prediction devices and when a disaster happens, we just head right back and go at it again. A definition of insanity I saw once said:

"Doing the same thing, in the same manner and expecting a different result."

Which I think speaks quite aptly to the problem and the cause, and yet we wish to blame God for not intervening. I believe that if this problem gets solved, we will see another conundrum about why God doesn't heal all our injuries, why doesn't He heal our toothache, why doesn't He heal the splinter in our thumb... until God truly has become our babysitter, and we are but mindless children.

I hope that helps in some way at least.

All the best,
Digit

 

[Live4HimAndLoveOthers]

Hi, DarrelDesoto! I found your thread.
It's getting late, so I'm not going to read these posts now, but I'll come back to this thread tomorrow or the next day.

 

[tanya88]

Well, I think that God didn't create evil. Evil is just the absence of good. Just like darkness is absence of light and cold is absence of heat.

 

[ebia]

I have a question that has plagued me for a long time. I have asked Christians, including ministers, preachers, and PhD theology professors, and none of them have given me an answer I can understand. They always end up telling me that we just can't know the answer. Perhaps someone in this forum could help me. Here's my question:

A basic Christian belief is that God exists and that He is omniscient (knows everything), omnipotent (can do anything), and benevolent (is compassionate and wants only good things to happen). Yet, very bad things happen to very good people all the time. For purposes of this discussion, we will call things like the Dec 26, 2004 tidal wave that killed over 200,000 people of all faiths, "Evil". So, why does God allow these things to occur? Why does God allow Evil to exist?

I have been told, "Well, God does not do Evil, the Devil does Evil." But, according to the Bible, God created everything, even the Devil. So why did God create the Devil to do Evil?

I've been told, "Well, it's just all part of God's Great Plan and not for us to question." That response is just saying, "Don't ask questions, just believe what I tell you." If God doesn't want us to understand, then why did He give us a brain to understand with? (I am reminded of a tag line I once read: If God had wanted me to think for myself, He would have given me a brain and a little bit of curiosity.) But, as I asked of one preacher, "So you're telling me that your God is so incompetent, so devoid of imagination, so impotent, that He cannot think of any other way to achieve His Master Plan than to destroy the lives of nearly a quarter of a million people, plus untold suffering of the injured, their families and their friends." He pursed his lips, glared at me, and walked away without answering. I really wasn't trying to be disrespectful or argumentative, and I said it very nicely, but I wanted an answer that made sense.

A popular saying among Christians is, "There are no atheists in foxholes." Well, of course not. When you believe you are about to die at any second, you'll grab for any hope at all, no matter how remote. You will beg whatever powers there may be to save you from a horrible, agonizing death and you'll disparately hope someone will answer. I'll bet there were no atheists in that tidal wave either, yet over 200,000 non-atheists were begging their God(s) to save them from certain death. Not one God responded. Not one God had the compassion, the awareness, or the power to answer their desperate prayers. After years of loyal devotion and sacrifice...nothing. For all their faith, for all their prayers, they might as well have been atheists.

In his book, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict", the Christian writer Josh McDowel wrote, "The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind cannot believe." Personally, I find it very difficult to believe that a God who is capable of creating the entire Universe, the vast distances, the vast matter and energy, and all the Laws of Nature, would really be so inept and callous as to allow such Evil to exist. Nor do I believe He would create a being to do His dirty work for Him. I cannot believe in such a God, so my heart could never rejoice in such a God.

For me, that is the central question mark of Christianity. Personally, I just could never serve such an Evil Being as one that would knowingly, purposely, with no regret, destroy half a million people just to keep His Great Plan on schedule. Perhaps some people have no problem with that, no doubts, no regrets, no wondering in the middle of the night, "Am I really on the right side here?", "Is this really the God I want to serve?" To serve, without question, without regret, without remorse, no matter what heinous deeds are done? That's not for me. Is that really for you?

So, why does God allow such things to occur? Does He have no better Plan than that?

Or, could it be that whatever God or gods there may be are either not omnipotent, or not omniscient, or not benevolent? Could it be that God is not perfect, not in total control? Or, could it be that there is no God. That everything happens according to natural, physical law? That the tidal wave was a tragic convergence of natural forces beyond any control? However you look at it, the description of the Christian God given in the Bible and accepted by all Christians simply doesn't jive with the existence of Evil (whether done directly by God, or by his front-man, the Devil). We can just refuse to try to answer the question. Just accept what we've been told since childhood. Never wonder about it. Refuse to discuss it. That's one thing we can do. Or, we can face the question. Ask ourselves. Ask each other. Ask our preachers and ministers and PhD theologians. And, perhaps, when enough of them have told us not to ask, told us just to accept without question, just pursed their lips, glared, and walked away...maybe, we'll begin to wonder: Is this really right?

So, for those who wonder how anyone could possibly be an atheist...that's one reason right there.

I look forward to your salvos.

Respectfully,
Darrel.

Without the potential for 'evil', there is no 'good'. We can't make good choices if there are no non-good choices. God want's us to be as he intended - to freely make good choices; that's a risky strategy, but we are (apparently) worth the risk.

 

[Emmy]

Dear DarrelDesoto. May I point out immediately; God did NOT create the Evil One, (Devil) Satan is the chief-spirit of all Evil. God is Love, love cannot create evil, and Satan is God`s opponent, and will do all to thwart God`s designs and plans. We also know that God is all-powerful, and we know that Jesus vanquished Satan, and Death has lost it`s sting, on Golgotha. When God created all, everything was GOOD, and Nature was put in command of all natural things. As time goes by, and many things happen, often done by Man, happenings like Tsunamis, Earthquakes, and other things happen. God gave us brains, and we have many Scientists, Doctors, and other clever men and women, to find out in time, and need to prevent wholesale death and destruction. We are all our brother`s and sister`s keepers. Disasters happen, never God-made, but for a number of reasons. We have the brains and wherewithals, to prevent many things, and we are asked to love and treat our fellow-beings, as we would do ourselves, or our loved ones. We live in an imperfect world, DarrelDesoto, we have many things to fight evil, and God gave us the power to do so, with Love for God first, and love for each other. I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Reformationist]

I have a question that has plagued me for a long time. I have asked Christians, including ministers, preachers, and PhD theology professors, and none of them have given me an answer I can understand. They always end up telling me that we just can't know the answer. Perhaps someone in this forum could help me. Here's my question:

A basic Christian belief is that God exists and that He is omniscient (knows everything), omnipotent (can do anything), and benevolent (is compassionate and wants
only good things to happen).

Hello Darrel. If I may, the first place you seem to deviate from what Scripture reveals is that God's benevolence toward His creation indicates a disposition to do only good, at least in the sense the it is "good" in the eyes of the creation. What God does is "good" but it is "good" in the sense that it is according to the will of God who ordains all things to the manifestation of His good will. God has ordained all that comes to pass, including the things that we see as horrible. Why He does so is often unclear, but, if we accept that God is omniscient (all knowing), omnipotent (all powerful), and sovereign (the rightful authority over all), a commonly held belief in the Christian community, then His reasons for bringing His will to pass, revealed or not, are binding. It is true that God, to varying degrees, is benevolent to all creation. His very act of creation is, in itself, a benevolent act which reveals His kindness. He also blesses all people, though many fail to give Him thanks for His graciousness.

Yet, very bad things happen to very good people all the time.

There are consequences of the Fall, one of which is that the very environment in which live seems to rebel against God. If we speak of "good" as something more than an abstract concept, which the Bible does, we cannot rightly call any "good" except God, for He alone is without sin. While I agree that terrible things happen to people, my assessment is based on my finite reasoning that often leads me to see people as innocent, when none are innocent of sin.

So, why does God allow these things to occur? Why does God allow Evil to exist?

I could answer in a general fashion, if you're asking in a general fashion. The things which we often call "evil," be they physical or moral evil, are purposed by God to bring about His will. How this always happens I could not tell you. What I can tell you is that no one, including satan, and nothing, exerts influence over any part of God's creation unless God has ordained that very means to bring His plan to fruition.

So why did God create the Devil to do Evil?

Oftentimes, the things we see as unpleasant, even evil, should show us our dependence upon God. As man is a fallen, ungodly creature, due to sin's influence on him, he naturally fails to glorify God. The devil, who acts of his on accord and according to his own rebellious nature, seeks to thwart God's will while the evil he commits upon the creation of God only further that ends that God has established.

But, as I asked of one preacher, "So you're telling me that your God is so incompetent, so devoid of imagination, so impotent, that He cannot think of any other way to achieve His Master Plan than to destroy the lives of nearly a quarter of a million people, plus untold suffering of the injured, their families and their friends."

I say this without pursed lips or any glaring, God had at His disposal the means and the authority to bring about His plan any way He chose, in accordance with His nature. With that said, the plan He is perfectly bringing to pass is the one He chose, and while some of the things that happen seem, to me, to be horrific, it is not my place to question God's authority or His holiness if I believe what He brings to pass to be bad. Such presumption is what brought mankind into ruin in the first place. Adam sought to deny God's authority to demand obedience, and his failure to comply with God's commandments showed his intent to be his own god, sicut erat Dei, in accordance with the temptation of the serpent. For the record, I can, and do, question God. I just do not question His right to do as He will.

I'll bet there were no atheists in that tidal wave either, yet over 200,000 non-atheists were begging their God(s) to save them from certain death. Not one God responded. Not one God had the compassion, the awareness, or the power to answer their desperate prayers. After years of loyal devotion and sacrifice...nothing. For all their faith, for all their prayers, they might as well have been atheists.

Well, if a prayer is a petition to God, then you have to allow for the possibility that their pleas, however genuine they may have been, were not the plan God had decreed to establish. It sounds as if you contend that God should only be worshipped if He does as His creation requests. As for those who died who were true believers, well, they are far better off now than before.

Personally, I just could never serve such an Evil Being as one that would knowingly, purposely, with no regret, destroy half a million people just to keep His Great Plan on schedule. Perhaps some people have no problem with that, no doubts, no regrets, no wondering in the middle of the night, "Am I really on the right side here?", "Is this really the God I want to serve?" To serve, without question, without regret, without remorse, no matter what heinous deeds are done? That's not for me. Is that really for you?

As I alluded to previously, you suffer from the same sin as our forefathers, that of pride. You presume that you have the right to question God's authority to bring His plan to fulfillment, simply because you, in your arrogance, assume that God is only worthy of your worship if He does as you would have Him do. Your pride will be your downfall:

Prov 16:18
Pride goes before destruction,
and a haughty spirit before a fall.

So, why does God allow such things to occur? Does He have no better Plan than that?

His lack of "a better plan" isn't due to a limit of options, rather it is the best plan because it is His plan. You seem, once again, to feel that it is your perception of things, whether they're good or bac, that should be the basis for anyone's view but your own, which, ironically, is what Christians are regularly accused of doing.

I look forward to your salvos.

If your goal was our ire, then I'd say your's was a dishonorable one. I pray that you consider my response and offer a genuine one in return.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

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[Reformationist]

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[Key]

Well, Ok the Problem of Evil, we have all heard this before, many of us have heard this more times then we care to admit, and no mater what we say, or what have you, this question keeps coming back, again and again.

So I'm gonna put this on the table, pain suffering, evil and all that Jazz, why do we have it, and how was God involved. Well, see, it's simple. "We (Expletive) Up, Big Time"

Man walked away from God, as Such, God allowed man to suffer for His decision. So, Yah. Life is Pain, Because, we make it pain. It's that simple.

Hope this Helps.

God Bless

Key

 

[amadeus2]

Lots of questions and so many different answers. The problem with searching for God or the lack of God methodically or logically is that the answers will be different and inconclusive.

Much of my belief in God and His Way is by faith, which means there is no substantial evidence available to prove or disprove His existence by a scientific method.

Your basis for not believing is that the things which you are able to perceive lead you to a conclusion that no ruling, knowing God would do or not do what has or has not been done. Your assumption, of course, is that your mind is able to grasp the whole picture well enough to draw a final conclusion of any kind. Mine certainly cannot, and I do not believe that anyone else's mind can either.

So then this being the case, why do I believe that there is a God? Simply because He has spoken to my heart, He has touched me. I know that you will explain that away with some of many arguments used for such apparent (to you) figments of someone else's imagination or dreams or hopes, etc. with no basis in reality.

That reality is the one restricted to your own perceptions and your own conclusions, as if those alone were definitely able to take in everything that is or could be.

I cannot prove to you that God has touched me, but I know that He has. I have no way of transferring this knowledge of mine to you or to anyone else. Only God is capable of changing someone's mind or heart when it comes to such things. You are on the outside looking in and you can see and understand only what your natural senses perceive. My communication with God may include the use of those same senses, but it definitely not limited to them. This something that I not only believe (faith), but know as well even though I am unable to convince anyone else of it who has not had a similar experience.

The key for you is in this one verse of scripture:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." hebrews 11:6

The same verse mentions man's primary purpose for existing: To please God.

For you the verse presents a circular argument. You cannot please God because you cannot believe that He exists. You cannot believe that He exists because you do not diligently seek Him, etc.

Without starting with a little faith toward Him you will never be able to understand or to believe. I cannot change a thing in your way of thinking, but at the same time my faith is absolutely unshakeable, at least, by you.

A person's faith can be shaken, but only if it has an uncertain basis. To me, my basis is not uncertain. You, on the other hand, because you have doubts or because my God does not line with your standards of what god must be, have decided that my God does not exist. Your decision does not make it so.

 

[wnwall]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0jwRkPW1D4

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByDate/2186_Where_Is_God_UCF/

 

[tapero]

Hi All,

Please be careful not to debate each others posts as debate is not allowed in Q by Non C.

Thanks!

 

[Emmy]

Dear DarrelDesoto. you had some good replies, and I cannot resist pointing out again, it is true; God created all, and the Bible tells us that Satan is not an independant rival of God, but only allowed to go as far as God permits. When Jesus lived amongst us, He told the Pharisees quite bluntly that they were Hypocrites, for making it so hard on the ordinary man and woman, to know and love God. Satan`s origin is not told, but he was originally good, and fell as a star out of heaven, because of pride. (possibly) God loves us, God made us in His image, and God wants us to REPENT. Jesus told us to love God with all our beings, and love each other, as we love ourselves, and learn to become as loving, as perfect, as God is perfect. When god gave us His Commandments, they were for our own good, out of Love for us, and if we follow them we will reap all God`s promises, and if we ignore them, or even go against them, we will pay the consequences. That is God`s Law, Darrel, and it stands forever. I say this humbly and with love, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Live4HimAndLoveOthers]

Darrel,

Hi! I'm finally joining this thread. OK, I've only read part of the first post so far, but I just want to contribute one post, and then I'll try to read the rest of the posts in this thread, and try to catch up. So please forgive me if I'm posting an idea that has already been posted. I just want to post something right now, because I promised I would join this thread.

So why did God create the Devil to do Evil?

Actually, God created Lucifer, a holy angel, and Lucifer later rebelled against God, convincing 1/3 of all the angels to follow him in his mutiny. Lucifer's name became Satan (or "the devil") and those 'fallen' (sinful) angels became known as demons.
So, God did not "create the devil to do evil," in a literal sense. Neither did God create man to do evil.

However, since God is omniscient (all-knowing), including knowing the future, He did know that all this was going to happen. Now, we, as humans, cannot fully understand all of God's mind (if we could, He would not be much of a God), neither can we fully understand His reasoning (after all, He sees the 'big picture,' and we do not...He knows all of the past, all of the present, and all of the future, including all of eternity...so He is aware of an infinite amount of things that we are not aware of...therefore, some of the things He does may seem illogical to us...a little like a beginner chess player watching a grand master chess player, and wondering, "Why did he do that? He lost his Queen by making that move!" Yet, by making that move, he may win by 'Checkmate' in the next 3 moves).

One thing that I believe is that God can use even evil and the devil to glorify Himself. This is a hard thing to understand because of our limited understanding. One aspect is, when you think, "Why is there a Hell if God is a loving God?" Yet, if God just freely pardoned all the rapists, murderers, child-molesters, terrorists, homicidal maniacs, etc., then that would be completely unfair to those of us who have lived relatively 'moral' lives (I'm speaking from man's perspective of fairness here, because, in fact, we are all sinners, hence we all deserve Hell), and God would not be just. Therefore, Hell shows God's justice, while people going to Heaven demonstrates God's mercy and love.

The Bible does say, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay," says the Lord." This reflects the punishment that murderers, rapists, etc. will receive in Hell.

One key thing to realize is that God does NOT---EVER---let evil go unpunished. It will either be paid for in Hell (by wicked sinners who will suffer forever, because, like a prisoner who has no money and cannot pay his bail, sinners cannot pay for sin...only a sinless person can pay for it), or it will be paid for by Jesus, Who is God. So, in effect, every person on earth can either have their sins paid for by Jesus, or they can pay for their sins themselves...which will take all eternity.

 

[Live4HimAndLoveOthers]

OK, I'm posting replies a little here and there as I read through the posts, so again, if I'm posting something that already has been addressed, I apologize.

I'll bet there were no atheists in that tidal wave either, yet over 200,000 non-atheists were begging their God(s) to save them from certain death. Not one God responded. Not one God had the compassion, the awareness, or the power to answer their desperate prayers. After years of loyal devotion and sacrifice...nothing. For all their faith, for all their prayers, they might as well have been atheists.

From what a missionary friend told me (who spent many years living in one of those areas, and moved out just before that tidal wave hit), most of those people were Muslims, and some had even rejected the gospel when it was presented to them. In general, it is my understanding that most of those people hated Christians and Christianity. However, I understand that there were, in fact, some Christians who were killed in that tidal wave (i.e., who had formerly been Muslims, but who had later surrendered to Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior).

For the Christian, life on this earth is just a tiny, minuscule, infinitesimal part of existence. As Paul said, "To live is Christ; to die is gain." For a true, born-again Christian (vs. someone who merely goes to a Protestant or Catholic church, yet does not truly follow Christ because they have never truly surrendered to Christ, and have never had all their sins washed away, and have never been transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit...or maybe attends NO church and merely believes in the existence of God...or just goes by the name "Christian" by default, because they don't consider themselves a Buddhist or a Muslim, etc.)...for a true Christian, death...even a horrible death...is not really a tragedy, because the grandest, most glorious, most mind-blowing, fantastic destiny awaits them afterwards. So, theirs is a happy ending, no matter what. And, if they are truly mature Christian believers, they themselves will tell you that dying in a tidal wave, while Heaven awaits them afterwards, can hardly be considered God not answering their prayers. Instead, granting them eternal life in Heaven (because of the sacrifice God the Son made to pay for their sins), when they only deserve Hell, is the most fantastic, wonderful answer to prayer that there can be.

 

[Live4HimAndLoveOthers]

Before I go on, I just want to thank you for your honesty, Darrel, and I want to encourage you to keep asking questions. Unfortunately, some of those you have asked in the past [and, for the sake of anyone reading this, obviously I'm not talking about those who have posted replies to you in this thread...I'm talking about those you have referred to that you have asked questions of in the past] may have been clueless, and maybe that's why they refused to give you any real answer. Now, I can hardly pretend to fully understand God, because I am only a human. However, I (as well as the others here) am trying to answer your questions to the best of my ability, and I appreciate your asking those questions. I also appreciate the respect you are showing, which is commendable.

Personally, I just could never serve such an Evil Being as one that would knowingly, purposely, with no regret, destroy half a million people just to keep His Great Plan on schedule. Perhaps some people have no problem with that, no doubts, no regrets, no wondering in the middle of the night, "Am I really on the right side here?", "Is this really the God I want to serve?" To serve, without question, without regret, without remorse, no matter what heinous deeds are done? That's not for me. Is that really for you?

From one aspect, think about this: have you ever killed any roaches, ants, spiders, termites, etc. in your house? Have you ever gone to the doctor so that he/she can do something to kill the germs that are inside you?

Did you yourself create those roaches, ants, spiders, termites, or microscopic organisms? Then how can you have the right to kill them? However, God did create us, so He does have the right to kill us.

Now, unlike your lack of love for those insects, spiders, or organisms, God does love us. However, man willingly rebelled against God. Why is that a big deal? Well, sin is like a disease. Look at some of the things that have resulted because of sin: murder, rape, suicide, genocide, child abuse, molestation, etc. Besides all that, the worst thing is that we have each offended a holy God...the God Who created all of us. This is far worse than a group of peasants planning an uprising to overthrow a king, because the king didn't create those peasants, or give them life.

In addition, sin goes against the very nature of God. God hates sin, and His wrath is against all of those who are unrepentant and who are in defiance against God. Yet, because of God's love, He has offered Himself as the payment for sin, so that, anyone who accepts that offer and follows Him, can have eternal life in Heaven.

The thing is, you are not understanding what sin is, or how holy God is. Of course, I don't think any of us has a full and complete understanding of sin and God's holiness in their complete aspects. But what many of us try to do is lower God to our level, and treat Him as if He were merely human. We accuse Him of evil, when, in fact, we are the evil ones, accusing a holy God, who is infinitely more knowledgeable than we are. Therefore, we are trying to understand an all-knowing God, and we are applying our ignorance to His omniscience. Children sometimes don't understand why their parents do things; and yet, there is an infinitely larger gap between a human being and God, than between a child and a parent...yet we still try to force our limited understanding upon God's actions.

Also, the devil is not God's "front-man." The devil will, indeed, be punished for all of his crimes. And, all crimes will be punished. God is just so powerful that He can accomplish His will, despite the presence of evil. And, if you think that a bunch of wicked sinners who defy God and refuse to accept His Son, who are killed in a tidal wave, is a horrible thing, well, that's nothing compared to what is now happening to them in Hell. And, as for the existence of Hell, what else should God do with those who refuse to obey or follow Him---who even refuse His self-sacrifice to pay for their sins, which is the greatest act of love ever offered by anyone?

 

[Live4HimAndLoveOthers]

Also, to respond to some implied questions/suggestions in the post(s) from the other forum, my main purpose in asking the question is to find an answer that I can understand and accept. I have never had any interest in debating any subject just for the "joy" of debating. Having an education and background in science, my goal is always self-education via deep, intense, and careful probing of whatever subject matter has currently caught my attention.

I applaud you for that attitude, and the subject of God, eternity, Heaven, Hell and salvation is the most important subject of all, because it has to do with your eternal destination.

So, you are doing the right thing by asking these questions, Darrel...and don't let anyone stop you from asking them.

The fact that you are trying to understand these things for yourself shows that you are doing something that probably most people are too lazy or lackadaisical to do. I respect you for that.