Why does Christianity have to be so dismissive?

oi_antz said:

I am not sure that what you mean by that expression is consistent with the story that the expression has been derived from. If you can demonstrate to me why you think I have a faulty understanding, that would be worthwhile, otherwise I just do not understand why you are objecting to something I have said. .

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Very well. Because you ask, I'll try again. It's not a big thing to me that you agree with me on this matter, but I am surprised and somewhat mystified to have anyone make a careful case as you have done...and not even account for the most obvious factor in the issue--Original Sin. That seems like arguing for the city to buy a new fire truck and never making mention of the cost in your presentation.

alexiscurious said:

I already have the answers to these questions...if you disagree with them then you can explain why.

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I do disagree and/or have meaningful additions to these answers, but I won't waster my time with less than an honest seeker. Judging by some of your posts, I don't see you one, but I'm willing to be corrected.

alexiscurious said:

I already have the answers to these questions...

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So you're just "looking to debate Christians"?

alexiscurious said:

No, I already have other Christians here doing that for me.

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Hi Alex, so I have just finished addressing Albion's response to my private message to him, as I have been concerned that we were not presenting to you a unified presentation of the truth.

I have found out that he originally thought I had failed to answer your question fully, leaving out any reference to what the bible says is our naturally sinful state, and our need for a savior. This caused him to wonder why I was avoiding what seems like a very significant part of the answer you need, and this is what prompted him to raise it with me. Then as he found I was not willing to just accept the introduction of the phrase "Original Sin", became concerned that perhaps I was representing some strange and unreliable point of view. However, I did contact him in a private message to explain that the term "Original Sin" is an extra-biblical idea, which is basically an abstraction of biblical ideas, and as such, can be easily understood in ways that are not consistent with what the bible says. When I described to him instead that I prefer to use statements in the bible when discussing matters of truth based on the bible, he could understand then why I had avoided offering an opinion on the phrase "Original Sin".

.. So this does still leave his first concerns not addressed, but now identified. These are:

We are born sinners.
We need a savior.

.. These are issues which I did not address you about, because I did not see them as being specifically requested by you, for me to discuss with you.

So it seems that Albion might have some questions for me about how the statements I have made are able to be reconciled with statements made in the bible WRT us being born as sinners and needing a savior. Although he cannot ask these of me on this thread due to the rules, you can. Albion is welcome to ask me these questions in a private message if he so desires.

Thank you for your patience Alex as I have gone about getting the assurance I needed, to be confident that I have not offered you unreliable points of view, and I wish to extend gratitude to Albion too for having been willing to raise his concerns when he thought wrong was being done.

alexiscurious said:

Why does Christianity have to be so dismissive? I feel as if every answer I receive is more of an excuse then an explanation.

Example 1: Why can't I be 100% assured of God's existence?
Reply: You need to have faith. God cannot be proven in any external verifiable way. Just believe!

Example 2: Why can't I communicate properly with God? Prayer seems to be more of a one way conversation, not a conversation between two beings that love each other dearly.
Reply: Man cannot understand God's ways. God is beyond our understanding. You are not in the right place to be questioning God's methods.

Example 3: Why am I separated from my creator? What action on my part constitutes such a cruel punishment?
Reply: Well....actually no action on your part caused God to separate himself from you. God is holding you and I responsible for our ancestors' decisions and that's why you, I, and the rest of humanity is trapped in an unavoidable and inescapable sinful prison. Even though we didn't even exist back then, we still deserve his wrath.

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Alex, here is my perspective on this. First of all, in my perspective on Jesus, God and our Creator, as flippant as it might sound, you can see God/Creator in all of LIFE. Just look around you at nature and how the world interacts with itself and us. I know that sound Pantheistic, but God is the Creator of all things and they are perfect.

I have personal experience with prayer. I don't think, again my perspective, people actually understand prayer. If you ask for a Mercedes Benz, you're going to probably be disappointed. If you ask for guidance, if you pray sincerity and you keep at it, it seems that your eyes are opened and though you may not get a merdedez benz, your life may reward you with riches of all sorts, in family, in business, and in your relationship with God and your family.

I don't know what you mean by being separated from your Creator. I don't feel separated and yet I'm far from sinless and careless in my quest to be Christ Like. If you communicate with God sincerely, he fills your heart. The other thing I feel about prayer.... there has to be communication both ways.... you have to ask for guidance and you have to be willing to be open to receiving that/those messages... as does someone you pray for.

My two slices of sashimi for you....

Much Aloha...

Well alex isn't responding anyway... you might as well have posted a recipe..

alexiscurious said:

So you finally agree we are born separated from God?

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I don't agree with that, no. I rather am pushing the point that at some stage in our life, we must decide consciously whether we want God to be a part of our life. So our conscious relationship to God depends on that decision, which we make at several and various places during our life. But, it is always a reflection of our comfort with the idea of being in communion with Him. I don't have any reason to believe He consciously decides to distance Himself from us.

So, if a person does not feel ashamed for their sin, will they always accept God as their friend?

Likewise, if a person feels shame for their sin, does that always prevent them from feeling peace, communion, at one with God?

My own experience is all I know effectively for sure, so I assume sin, the shame of unforgiven sin, keeps us from being at peace with God. My experience has always supported this and supported the alternative.

This has been my position ever since you and I have been addressing this matter, and yet we have not agreed. So, I wonder, is this a description that fits with what you are saying, do you think there is a problem with what I am saying, or do you have a different response?

oi_antz said:

I don't agree with that, no. I rather am pushing the point that at some stage in our life, we must decide consciously whether we want God to be a part of our life.

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Would you say, then, that you are a Pelagian?

Albion said:

Would you say, then, that you are a Pelagian?

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I don't know about that really, but the description on Wikipedia suggests not. However, I don't see an indication in the story of Genesis that the human at some time inherited a sinful nature that it didn't have all along. In fact, the story seems to rather suggest that the human never could remain sinless, even when placed in the best conditions.

alexiscurious said:

...all I need is evidence. I can pray to God and then pray to my TV remote. The response from both of them will still be the same. This upsets me.

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If you private messaged me and I did not answer you, would that be prove that I did not exist?

Christians do not usually offer a prayer test as a proof because we are dealing with a personal being who may or may not choose to answer in the manner or time-frame we desire.

There's lots of philosophical arguments and evidence to support a reasonable belief in God. Whether or not you choose to address them is your choice.

alexiscurious said:

Maybe...but even if this were more than just opinion, it still doesn't point to any specific god. I don't see a "Made by Yahweh" stamp anywhere to be found. I don't see how I can get any assurance from this.

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Again in my opinion, there is but one Creator. Different religions all respect the fact that we are a creation of some supremacy. You were made by your mother, a gift to LIFE by our Creator. You are one of him, as are all things on this earth. You could just look around you, if you don't live in a midst of downtown cave dwellings... and see his creativity.

alexiscurious said:

I don't need any guidance...all I need is evidence. I can pray to God and then pray to my TV remote. The response from both of them will still be the same. This upsets me.

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I can assure you, preaching to or praying to your remote, doesn't accomplish anything. Preaching to or praying to God, will either get you a chuckle or an answer. My prayers have usually been answered, and those that weren't probably were because I was being selfish in my requests. I can recognize the answers of many prayers by what's unfolded before me.

I can't give you guidance, but I can give you advise on one thing about prayer that I have garnered. You have to be serious about what you want from God. In my opinion, based upon my experiences, you have to have a serious message and you have to have a serious receiver, whether yourself, waiting and looking for an answer, or someone you are praying for.

alexiscurious said:

People are born into this world separated from God. The punishment of Adam/Eve's decision has been inflicted to all mankind. I don't see how God's relationship with me should somehow be altered because of someone else's careless decision. Don't I deserve a blank slate?

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You aren't born separated from God, you are one of his creations. In my opinion, anyone who believes as you do doesn't understand God.

He is part of you, but you have to seek him out. He is like the honey of the hive. For some it takes bravery and conviction to receive his blessing, as is seeking honey.... for others it is like a child innocently reaching out. Most of us probably aren't as blessed.... but the rewards are in any event, soulfully satisfying.

alexiscurious said:

Lucky...you live in Hawaii!

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Indeed!

alexiscurious said:

Here's where I still stand in this thread:

I still think Christianity is dismissive when it has every reason not to be.
1. It denies me the right to have a two way conversation with a creator that claims to love me more than anyone else. Pretty lame, right?

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This belief directly contradicts the purpose and teaching of Christianity, and the experience of those who have overcome their resistance to Him.

John 4:14
but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

John 6:63
The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Luke 11:9
“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Revelation 3:20
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

Revelation 2:7
To everyone who is victorious I will give fruit from the tree of life in the paradise of God.

.. FWIW, when I reflect on some experiences I have had with Him, especially at times when I was not engaging in conversations with Him, it is because He would not speak to me if I would not listen to Him. I was refusing to accept what He was telling me, and He was refusing to tell me anything until I did accept what He was telling me. Perhaps that is an idea to consider.

alexiscurious said:

2. It requires that its followers put blind trust in mankind and rely on the testimony of others, specifically, the authors of the Bible.

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Only if you want to know the facts about His involvement with humankind, but it probably is not necessary in order to have faith (eg, Abraham).

alexiscurious said:

3. It relies on mankind to spread its message, instead of a God who can simultaneously deliver billions of messages to every human on the planet without breaking a sweat. We know how good mankind is at spreading a rumor. Silly all-powerful being of universe, why would you make delivering your message so inefficient?

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We know too that advertising material is left in the letterbox and blown down the street by the wind, yet others do value it.

alexiscurious said:

4. There is no aspect or any part of Christianity that cannot be replicated by another man-made religion.

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Suppose God is real, what sense do you think He could find in allowing that?

alexiscurious said:

5. Too many fake stories make me uncomfortable. The Old Testament is apparently filled with all sorts of them. I don't think people should be able to make up stories about God.

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But some people do. It does not mean that everyone does.

alexiscurious said:

6. Its followers claim to have unique experiences and to have felt the presence of God in their lives. But I look on other Buddhist, Hindu, etc. forums and I see the same types of experiences. Odd, right?

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They are not the same, at all. At most, they may appeal to similar human needs and address normal human problems, but only if that is the prerogative. Plus, The Holy Spirit is set apart from all others. Look up the definition of the word "holy".

alexiscurious said:

7. Attended a Christian school for 10+ years, had friends with me for the whole ride and we all have nothing to show for it. Boring preachers, crazy teachers.

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Make of it what you will. To him who has much, much will be expected. It is fair to suggest that some people who are not indoctrinated have more than those who have been carelessly indoctrinated. It is clear in your attitude that there is resentment. It will harm you the most, and you will never grow if you want to get stuck in that loop.

alexiscurious said:

8. We all share a punishment for a decision that was not ours to make. I still don't see how a fair God could ever hold the rest of his creation accountable for the actions of 2.

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Time is linear. Present is the result of the past, and future will become the present. Apparently He did desire to scrap it, but He desired more to not waste the potential He saw in the likes of Noah.

Hope this helps you Alex, though I can see you are pretty determined to have these misconceptions. I assume you find some comfort in them, which suggests there is something in the very roots of your Christian faith that causes discomfort.

alexiscurious said:

Here's where I still stand in this thread:

I still think Christianity is dismissive when it has every reason not to be.
1. It denies me the right to have a two way conversation with a creator that claims to love me more than anyone else. Pretty lame, right?

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Well, I don't know if what you say is correct. You, of course, can believe whatever you want. To that extent, no Christian church is denying you anything.

However, the Church feels the obligation to teach and preach what it believes to be the truth--God's rules, policies, standards, etc. I can't imagine why anyone would be offended at that so long as non-members aren't required to believe it. You might as well say that you're upset that PETA teaches that it's wrong to abuse animals or that the WCTU doesn't approve of alcohol.

2. It requires that its followers put blind trust in mankind and rely on the testimony of others, specifically, the authors of the Bible.

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Not sure that this is so, either. Any real Christian church will tell you WHY it considers the Bible to be credible. It's not something that is presented with no explanation whatsoever as to why it is thought to be authoritative.

By and large, your listing sounds like someone trying to find a way to exonerate himself from any sense of wrongdoing as he rejects the Church. To find ways to oppose an institution that doesn't require you to belong or even to agree with it seems contrived. It may NOT be...but it seems that way.