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Discussion and Debate
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Physical & Life Sciences
Creation & Evolution
Why does "15 Questions for Evolutionists" brochure confuse the meaning of "evolution?
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<blockquote data-quote="verysincere" data-source="post: 61926748" data-attributes="member: 300486"><p><em><strong>A Question for Good Brother:</strong></em></p><p></p><p>Good Brother, you've been insisting upon your traditions throughout, and even insist that the clear statements of the Hebrew Old Testament which I've explained to you must be wrong because, supposedly, God is on your side. But tell me honestly:</p><p></p><p><em><strong>Good Brother, if you were to accept and admit any of the Hebrew exegesis I've explained to you about Genesis 1 and the Torah in general, and admitted that Genesis does not state the earth is a mere thousands of years old and that it doesn't deny evolutionary processes, would you be able to keep your job as a youth pastor?</strong></em></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Would you lose your job if you even admitted that what I explained to you is true and that though Genesis 1 describes a six YOM creation, we do NOT know the exact meaning of YOM in that context nor that the universe was "created in six 24-hour days"?</strong> (I even wonder if your church would allow you to tell your young people that there may have been vast periods of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?)</p><p></p><p>Good Brother, be honest with us and tell us: <strong>Would you even be able to publicly state, "I don't know." on any of these issues without losing your job as a pastor? </strong>Are you even at liberty to honestly say, "The Bible is not entirely clear about some of these origins issues."<strong> Are you allowed to admit, "Nowhere in the Bible does it state the age of the earth---and even if we can date Adam, that wouldn't give us the age of the universe."</strong></p><p></p><p>[Even if Good Brother's church employer DOES allow some leeway on "permitted thinking" about Genesis, a great many creationist churches do not. I have personally served on Christian school university and seminary faculties where any statement allowing for the theory of evolution to be true or even allowing for an earth older than perhaps 20,000 years could get you fired IMMEDIATELY. And unlike secular universities, even if tenure EXISTS at a particular Christian school, it provides meaningless job security if you dare think "wrong thoughts" about science---even if you are a Biblical theology professor. Ben Stein's EXPELLED movie was a joke because it was also extremely hypocritical. He made no effort to explore the many cases of Christians being fired for even thinking "wrong thoughts." It doesn't even matter if they were also taught.]</p><p></p><p>Personally, when somebody pontificates on what the Bible MUST be saying but they work for a church or school which would FIRE THEM IMMEDIATELY if they conceded even the smallest point of the debate, I find such a debate rather futile. <em><strong> Indeed, I have personally taken part in public debates on origins issues where a participant later admitted that they agreed with me (or were at least open on some issue) but that they couldn't admit it without immediate job loss.</strong></em> For example, Dr. Bruce Waltke lost his elite academic post within HOURS of making a controversial statement about creationism in a video. (Another graduate school hired him within a few more hours, but not all of my colleagues were so fortunate.)</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">It is very difficult to debate intelligently anyone whose deviation from "the party line" puts them in jeopardy<span style="font-size: 12px"> with their Christian church or school employer.</span></span> Right, Good Brother?!</p><p></p><p>Creationists complain about "academic freedom" but I can say from a lifetime as a professor at both Christian and secular universities, censorship and "thought control" is FAR MORE SEVERE AND DISCRIMINATORY at many Christian schools than what I have EVER seen at secular, government-funded universities. (And I say that after personally teaching at major universities in the USA and UK.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="verysincere, post: 61926748, member: 300486"] [I][B]A Question for Good Brother:[/B][/I] Good Brother, you've been insisting upon your traditions throughout, and even insist that the clear statements of the Hebrew Old Testament which I've explained to you must be wrong because, supposedly, God is on your side. But tell me honestly: [I][B]Good Brother, if you were to accept and admit any of the Hebrew exegesis I've explained to you about Genesis 1 and the Torah in general, and admitted that Genesis does not state the earth is a mere thousands of years old and that it doesn't deny evolutionary processes, would you be able to keep your job as a youth pastor?[/B][/I] [B] Would you lose your job if you even admitted that what I explained to you is true and that though Genesis 1 describes a six YOM creation, we do NOT know the exact meaning of YOM in that context nor that the universe was "created in six 24-hour days"?[/B] (I even wonder if your church would allow you to tell your young people that there may have been vast periods of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?) Good Brother, be honest with us and tell us: [B]Would you even be able to publicly state, "I don't know." on any of these issues without losing your job as a pastor? [/B]Are you even at liberty to honestly say, "The Bible is not entirely clear about some of these origins issues."[B] Are you allowed to admit, "Nowhere in the Bible does it state the age of the earth---and even if we can date Adam, that wouldn't give us the age of the universe."[/B] [Even if Good Brother's church employer DOES allow some leeway on "permitted thinking" about Genesis, a great many creationist churches do not. I have personally served on Christian school university and seminary faculties where any statement allowing for the theory of evolution to be true or even allowing for an earth older than perhaps 20,000 years could get you fired IMMEDIATELY. And unlike secular universities, even if tenure EXISTS at a particular Christian school, it provides meaningless job security if you dare think "wrong thoughts" about science---even if you are a Biblical theology professor. Ben Stein's EXPELLED movie was a joke because it was also extremely hypocritical. He made no effort to explore the many cases of Christians being fired for even thinking "wrong thoughts." It doesn't even matter if they were also taught.] Personally, when somebody pontificates on what the Bible MUST be saying but they work for a church or school which would FIRE THEM IMMEDIATELY if they conceded even the smallest point of the debate, I find such a debate rather futile. [I][B] Indeed, I have personally taken part in public debates on origins issues where a participant later admitted that they agreed with me (or were at least open on some issue) but that they couldn't admit it without immediate job loss.[/B][/I] For example, Dr. Bruce Waltke lost his elite academic post within HOURS of making a controversial statement about creationism in a video. (Another graduate school hired him within a few more hours, but not all of my colleagues were so fortunate.) [SIZE=3]It is very difficult to debate intelligently anyone whose deviation from "the party line" puts them in jeopardy[SIZE=3] with their Christian church or school employer.[/SIZE][/SIZE] Right, Good Brother?! Creationists complain about "academic freedom" but I can say from a lifetime as a professor at both Christian and secular universities, censorship and "thought control" is FAR MORE SEVERE AND DISCRIMINATORY at many Christian schools than what I have EVER seen at secular, government-funded universities. (And I say that after personally teaching at major universities in the USA and UK.) [/QUOTE]
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Why does "15 Questions for Evolutionists" brochure confuse the meaning of "evolution?
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