Why do you think its wrong

Shizzle · Jun 22, 2005

To Shizzle: Do you just want to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] it alot?

.... not really

He didn't say that sex with children was wrong either - so are pedophiles not sinning? Careful when your argument is that the Bible did not say it was wrong!

my argument is that the bible did not say it was wrong, but that the bible did say sex with animals is wrong, which is more bazzare, if masturbation had been said wrong, it would infer sex with animals to be wrong and there would have been no reason to say sex with animals is wrong. But it was said to be wrong, therefore masturbation isnt wrong.
sex with children wasnt said to be wrong, but its inferred,
A. sex outside of marriage is wrong
what, is the dude gonna marry the kid? that wouldnt be right because the kid isnt aware enough to make this descision, assuming (s)he was (which is extremely unprobable), i dont see a reason why it would be wrong

statrei · Jun 22, 2005

Shizzle said:
.... not really

my argument is that the bible did not say it was wrong, but that the bible did say sex with animals is wrong, which is more bazzare, if masturbation had been said wrong, it would infer sex with animals to be wrong and there would have been no reason to say sex with animals is wrong. But it was said to be wrong, therefore masturbation isnt wrong.
sex with children wasnt said to be wrong, but its inferred,
A. sex outside of marriage is wrong
what, is the dude gonna marry the kid? that wouldnt be right because the kid isnt aware enough to make this descision, assuming (s)he was (which is extremely unprobable), i dont see a reason why it would be wrong

Splendid reasoning, Shizzle.

porcupine · Jun 22, 2005

Shizzle said:
.... not really

my argument is that the bible did not say it was wrong, but that the bible did say sex with animals is wrong, which is more bazzare, if masturbation had been said wrong, it would infer sex with animals to be wrong and there would have been no reason to say sex with animals is wrong. But it was said to be wrong, therefore masturbation isnt wrong.
sex with children wasnt said to be wrong, but its inferred,
A. sex outside of marriage is wrong
what, is the dude gonna marry the kid? that wouldnt be right because the kid isnt aware enough to make this descision, assuming (s)he was (which is extremely unprobable), i dont see a reason why it would be wrong

God is not required to name every paraphilia and say yea or nay to it. The term fornication covers ALL sexual activity except that between spouses. That much is clear.

Actually, in that ancient culture if thye did not consider the molestaion a rape (which I am sure they did), they may have had a forced betrothal to the kid until they were of age to marry. It would adhere to the requirement of the Law. However, more likely, the guy would have had to pay a brideprice -- which also is provided for in the Law.

Shizzle · Jun 22, 2005

God is not required to name every paraphilia and say yea or nay to it. The term fornication covers ALL sexual activity except that between spouses. That much is clear.

no, how do you reason fornification to cover all sexual activity except that between spouses? it doesnt say it in the bible, so where do you get that from We can infer that since the bible did not say it was wrong, but that the bible did say sex with animals is wrong, which is more bazzare, if masturbation had been said wrong, it would infer sex with animals to be wrong and there would have been no reason to say sex with animals is wrong. But it was said to be wrong, therefore masturbation isnt wrong..

BarbB · Jun 22, 2005

Shizzle said:
.... not really

my argument is that the bible did not say it was wrong, but that the bible did say sex with animals is wrong, which is more bazzare, if masturbation had been said wrong, it would infer sex with animals to be wrong and there would have been no reason to say sex with animals is wrong. But it was said to be wrong, therefore masturbation isnt wrong.
sex with children wasnt said to be wrong, but its inferred,
A. sex outside of marriage is wrong
what, is the dude gonna marry the kid? that wouldnt be right because the kid isnt aware enough to make this descision, assuming (s)he was (which is extremely unprobable), i dont see a reason why it would be wrong

NAMBLA uses this horrendous reasoning also!

BarbB · Jun 22, 2005

newlamb said:
From the NIV:

In Deuteronomy, God has instructed that nocturnal emissions are to be treated as unclean and the man who had one is unclean until evening. The very next paragraph speaks of setting up latrines. I'm thinking that touching yourself would fit right in here, except it is an action that is willfully done and in OT times would render a man unclean.

You didn't respond to my reference. Care to take a shot at it.

porcupine · Jun 22, 2005

Shizzle said:
no, how do you reason fornification to cover all sexual activity except that between spouses? it doesnt say it in the bible, so where do you get that from We can infer that since the bible did not say it was wrong, but that the bible did say sex with animals is wrong, which is more bazzare, if masturbation had been said wrong, it would infer sex with animals to be wrong and there would have been no reason to say sex with animals is wrong. But it was said to be wrong, therefore masturbation isnt wrong..

As I said, God does not name every sin. The term forication has long been used as the catch-all. The early church understood it that way. The OT Jews understood it that way. Everyone understood it that way until about 100 years ago.

bliz · Jun 22, 2005

newlamb said:
Thanks for responding, bliz!

In response, I'll just say that until I was a born-again Christian I had no idea that God was interested in my day-to-day struggles and would help me to overcome if I would only ask. I asked and received the power to dismiss the urge and would suggest that others could do the same if they would only ask. Of course, if you don't want to ask, then don't.

Not to say what a huge increase in self-esteem results from success.

First, you are assuming that mastrubation is wrong. Someone has no need to ask for the power to dismiss the urge to do something if they don't think that something is wrong. For example, I have never asked God to help me overcome the urge to laugh at things I find funny, becasue I don't think that laughing at funny things is wrong. Someone who has not been convicted on the issue of mastrubation is not going to ask to be released from the desire to do so. Notice - Paul did not tell the meat eaters to pray for release from their taste for meat.

Second, are you saying that everyone who asks will receive the power to overcome a desire to mastrubate? Many people ask for physical healing, but God does not heal all of them. My God is not a waiter in a restaurant who must come and respond whenever a patron snaps their fingers. He is the Master of the Universe and He has His plans and desires for us that may not include answering all of our prayers with a 'yes'.

Third, your personal experience, my personal experience, no one's personal experience is a blueprint for how everyonje's personal life should proceed. God does not work with all of us the same way; he does not expect us to live cookie-cutter lives. His people, doing what He wanted have lived in poverty and in castles. They were well educated and uneducated. They were priests and prostitutes and virgins and foreigners and shepheards and princesses. They had incredible strength and they were crippled and blind.

bliz · Jun 22, 2005

LukeBritt said:
You have to be careful about subjective truth. Not everything is "my conviction".

No one has said that everything is subjective.

Do you disagree with Paul position on the eating of meat offered to idols?

Shizzle · Jun 23, 2005

As I said, God does not name every sin. The term forication has long been used as the catch-all. The early church understood it that way. The OT Jews understood it that way. Everyone understood it that way until about 100 years ago.

no
give biblical/logical support

In Deuteronomy, God has instructed that nocturnal emissions are to be treated as unclean and the man who had one is unclean until evening. The very next paragraph speaks of setting up latrines. I'm thinking that touching yourself would fit right in here, except it is an action that is willfully done and in OT times would render a man unclean.

Click to expand...

it could fit in but it doesnt because its not wrong, it "could" but it also "could not"

NAMBLA uses this horrendous reasoning also!

the horrendous reasoning proves masturbation not to be wrong, and you cant logically defer it.

bliz · Jun 23, 2005

porcupine said:
As I said, God does not name every sin. The term forication has long been used as the catch-all. The early church understood it that way. The OT Jews understood it that way. Everyone understood it that way until about 100 years ago.

I had never heard or read the word fornication used as a catch-all for any illicit sexual activity. So, I've been doing a little reserarch. I've asked a few seminary trained pastors, a Bible professor and have checked out a major dictionary that icludes the history of words and dome some on-line research. I haven't found anyone or any source using the word in that manner, and not one that specifically says that fornication includeds mastrubation. Since you were not around 100 years ago, or hanging out with OT Jews, what is your source for this knowledge?

JunkYardDog · Jun 23, 2005

bliz said:
I had never heard or read the word fornication used as a catch-all for any illicit sexual activity. So, I've been doing a little reserarch. I've asked a few seminary trained pastors, a Bible professor and have checked out a major dictionary that icludes the history of words and dome some on-line research. I haven't found anyone or any source using the word in that manner, and not one that specifically says that fornication includeds mastrubation. Since you were not around 100 years ago, or hanging out with OT Jews, what is your source for this knowledge?

No dictionary is going to say: Fornication: sexual activity outside of marriage, including homosexuality, bestiality, masturbation, S&M, bondage, latex, shoe fetish, child molesting . . .

Go to the first English dictionary ever compiled -- Noah Webster's 1828. (It is available on line.) This is the closest to the usage of words we have in the KJV 1611. Fornication in that dictionary is not limited and easily encompasses every kind of sex activity outside the marriage bed.

Then go read the early church writings -- first and second centuries and look at the attitude they had concerning ANY sexual activity outside of marriage. Then go read rabbinic writings from BC. The condemnation of masturbation is clear.

Think for a minute, if God said that "nocturnal emissions" -- which are not deliberate -- rendered one unclean for the purpose of approaching God, what do you think happens when someone DELIBERATELY cause "emissions"?

statrei · Jun 23, 2005

Did you read the part where they said that sex between the races was also wrong in God's eyes?

JunkYardDog said:
No dictionary is going to say: Fornication: sexual activity outside of marriage, including homosexuality, bestiality, masturbation, S&M, bondage, latex, shoe fetish, child molesting . . .

Go to the first English dictionary ever compiled -- Noah Webster's 1828. (It is available on line.) This is the closest to the usage of words we have in the KJV 1611. Fornication in that dictionary is not limited and easily encompasses every kind of sex activity outside the marriage bed.

Then go read the early church writings -- first and second centuries and look at the attitude they had concerning ANY sexual activity outside of marriage. Then go read rabbinic writings from BC. The condemnation of masturbation is clear.

Think for a minute, if God said that "nocturnal emissions" -- which are not deliberate -- rendered one unclean for the purpose of approaching God, what do you think happens when someone DELIBERATELY cause "emissions"?

bliz · Jun 23, 2005

Noah's 1828:

FORNICA'TION, n. [L. fornicatio.]

1. The incontinence or lewdness of unmarried persons, male or female; also, the criminal conversation of a married man with an unmarried woman.2. Adultery. Matt. 5.3. Incest. 1Cor. 5.4. Idolatry; a forsaking of the true God, and worshipping of idols. 2Chron. 21. Rev. 19.fornication is also found in 9 definitions:

Sorry - I'm not seeing where mastrubation is covered. If you have pretetermined that mastrubation is wrong, then yes, one would consider it lewd but if one is seeking to determine if it is or it isn't, this doesn't help.

statrei · Jun 23, 2005

The unfortunate fact is that Christians have accepted the view that they do not have to be influenced by the facts. How sad.

bliz said:
Noah's 1828:

FORNICA'TION, n. [L. fornicatio.]

1. The incontinence or lewdness of unmarried persons, male or female; also, the criminal conversation of a married man with an unmarried woman.2. Adultery. Matt. 5.3. Incest. 1Cor. 5.4. Idolatry; a forsaking of the true God, and worshipping of idols. 2Chron. 21. Rev. 19.fornication is also found in 9 definitions:

adultery

concubinage

flee

lewd

lewdness

palliardise

putage

stool

whoredom

Sorry - I'm not seeing where mastrubation is covered. If you have pretetermined that mastrubation is wrong, then yes, one would consider it lewd but if one is seeking to determine if it is or it isn't, this doesn't help.

bliz · Jun 23, 2005

JunkYardDog said:
Think for a minute, if God said that "nocturnal emissions" -- which are not deliberate -- rendered one unclean for the purpose of approaching God, what do you think happens when someone DELIBERATELY cause "emissions"?

Yes, the Bible, under OT law makes it clear that nocturnal emissions make a man unclean. Tell me, what other parts of OT law do you follow? Have you been bringing bird sacrifices to the temple for infections skin diseases? Have you been, upon instruction from the Priest, been burining any cloth with mildew on it? Have you helped tear down any houses that have mildew? Do you follow the rules of spreading itches? Have you ever eaten pork? Shrimp? Lobster? If the OT laws still apply, they all apply.

statrei said:
The unfortunate fact is that Christians have accepted the view that they do not have to be influenced by the facts. How sad.

And what facts are you talking about?

statrei · Jun 23, 2005

bliz said:
Yes, the Bible, under OT law makes it clear that nocturnal emissions make a man unclean. Tell me, what other parts of OT law do you follow? Have you been bringing bird sacrifices to the temple for infections skin diseases? Have you been, upon instruction from the Priest, been burining any cloth with mildew on it? Have you helped tear down any houses that have mildew? Do you follow the rules of spreading itches? Have you ever eaten pork? Shrimp? Lobster? If the OT laws still apply, they all apply.

And what facts are you talking about?

Any facts that disprove their cherished positions.

JunkYardDog · Jun 23, 2005

LEWD'NESS, n.

1. The unlawful indulgence of lust; fornication, or adultery.2. In Scripture, it generally denotes idolatry.3. Licentiousness; shamelessness.

INCON'TINENCY, n. [L. incontinentia. See Continence.]

1. Want of restraint of the passions or appetites; free or uncontrolled indulgence of the passions or appetites, as of anger.2. Want of restraint of the sexual appetite; free or illegal indulgence of lust; lewdness; used of either sex, but appropriately of the male sex. Incontinence in men is the same as unchastity in women.

Shizzle · Jun 23, 2005

The dictionarys definition of fornication is not going to be the same as Gods, look at context clues in the bible, we have to remember that the roman catholic church had become extremely corrupt and gnostic-like, in the middle ages to the point where it was not of or inspired of God in any way. Which has led to a illogical puritanical view of sex. Jesus said its not the outside that makes us unclean but whats in our heart.

statrei · Jun 23, 2005

Shizzle said:
The dictionarys definition of fornication is not going to be the same as Gods, look at context clues in the bible, we have to remember that the roman catholic church had become extremely corrupt and gnostic-like, in the middle ages to the point where it was not of or inspired of God in any way. Which has led to a illogical puritanical view of sex. Jesus said its not the outside that makes us unclean but whats in our heart.

Not to mention the dualism preached by Augustine whereby the flesh was viewed as being intrinsically evil.

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