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directorrico

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Hi there,

I am new here so I am not sure this is the right thread to post in but please correct me if I am not 'wanted' here.

I want to ask theists here on why do they believe in God? Specifically, the Christian God.

Not so much a 1 on 1 debate but an open discussion as to what is/are your sole reason(s) for being a theist?
I will be open to any reasons and I will try to reply to you asap.
--
A little background info on me:
I was a Roman Catholic for almost 20 years until I (just recently in the last 6 months or so) became an Atheist. I was raised Catholic and went through all the traditional events a Catholic would have gone through. I was not looking for a way out, or was affected negatively by my Catholic friends/family but it just so happened when I stumbled upon some YouTube videos and picked up a few books on the subject.
 

nebulaJP

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OK. Well for me, part of it is that I find physicalism/materialism implausible. It doesn't fit with scientific discoveries of the past century as well as other theories of reality, like "virtualism." Quantum mechanics doesn't necessarily mean there is a "God" but for me it does mean that the non-physical is real. There is a "ghostly world" of quantum mechanics. It's not a huge stretch to call it a "spirit world." For me, its existence is the only sensible interpretation of QM. I don't believe there are doppelgangers of me on parallel earths and all that as described in the many worlds hypothesis, which is the most popular interpretation in the mainstream scientific community right now.

So there is that. I also believe in life beyond death. I guess what convinces me most is Near Death Experience research. A lot of people have a different interpretation of this data but I find it compelling evidence.

As far as God, I have no idea what God is, but I'm sort of OK with that. It's something like "awareness / consciousness / being / life / love / peace." We know from experience that those things exist and in my belief that's evidence of God because we and everything else are a part of God. I don't believe that all of that stuff arises from random physical processes. For me, matter arising from a non-physical observer substrate makes more sense. Maybe I go on intuition for it. Think of two things in order: 1. Awareness, 2. Matter. Which seems primary or fundamental? For me it's 1.

So the following three things don't have to be related but for me they are. So that's why I brought up 1 & 2.

1. the non-physical is real based on QM.

2. there is life beyond death based on NDEs.

3. God is real based on intuition but God is only dimly understood by the thinking mind. However, it is possible to "know" God in other ways, such as when you have a sense of peace, which is often the result of some form of meditation such as mindfulness.
 
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QueSi

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I believe in God because when I look at humanity I have no hope and the chaos theory doesn't work all of the time.
 
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directorrico

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Thanks for the reply.

I'll first address the life beyond death claim.
Near-death experiences are probably the most unreasonable and least compelling way(s) to be swayed about whether or not there is truth in x (x in this case being life beyond death). How can we assess an experience of a person who is at their most vulnerable, nonsensical state where they are prone to illusions and misinformation due to the fact that their body is leading or close to failure.
I could also go on on how believing a claim off of someone else's personal experience (in this case NDE) fails in providing actual evidence of their claim.
//

If you are going to label the non-physical things in our world such as love and peace as "God", then why call it God?
Yes, every person has experienced tons of the non-physical things you have felt but having that does not conclude that there is a God. You have assumed because materialism does not explain why there are feelings that we humans share then that means a God must be behind it? I'm sorry but that is just a fallacy of ignorance (and correct me if that is not what you intended on saying). Because I do not have an appropriate explanation of how "this" came to be, then God. You have not considered the other possible evidence you have not yet looked at or even the other possible evidence that has not yet been found.
//
 
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directorrico

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I believe in God because when I look at humanity I have no hope and the chaos theory doesn't work all of the time.

Thanks for the reply.

I sincerely hope this is not your only reason for being a theist.
Because humans have acted in horrific ways then therefore God? I am not doubting that humans have done wrong, or humans are majority of the times "good", but why does that conclude you to rely on God?

I know I only asked on "why do you believe?" and I get that.
But I hope you have considered that believing in things for the wrong reason(s) will not serve you good. I hope you have more reasons to "defend" your faith and that evidence for God will play a part in your reliance on him.
//
 
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nebulaJP

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As far as NDE testimony, I see it as being a lot like stories of ET visitation or UFOs, which I also believe. It's subjective, circumstantial evidence but that doesn't necessarily make it unreasonable to believe in or uncompelling. People are sent to the chair based on eye-witness testimony.

Yeah, I have assumed that because materialism cannot adequately explain how random processes create phenomena such as life and awareness, it means there must be a God behind it. I think that for debate purposes, atheism is a stronger position than theism because atheism is a null hypothesis, which is very hard to argue against. Anything attributed to God can be attributed to God of the gaps. But that doesn't necessarily mean there is no God. However since it is so hard to argue against a null hypothesis like atheism without scientifically reproducible evidence to the contrary, I don't bother trying. I was only trying to explain why I believe in God. As far as God and the afterlife, believe what you want, I'm not arguing for their existence.

But unlike atheism, materialism makes an positive claim: that all phenomena are material interactions. This claim is completely contradicted by reproducible scientific tests of quantum phenomena like entanglement, superposition, quantum tunneling, wave particle duality etc. So I will debate until the bitter end over THAT one. For example, in entanglement, what is the material interaction between the entangled particles? There is none! When it comes to QM, you can use some kind of version of God of the gaps to hold on to materialism, such as "we don't fully understand it yet, but let's not jump to conclusions." But to me that is just a cop out and an over-reliance on the God of the gaps argument. Like I said, QM doesn't prove God or the afterlife exist but it does at least prove there is more to reality than physical interactions. Therefore physicalism cannot be true.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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As far as NDE testimony, I see it as being a lot like stories of ET visitation or UFOs, which I also believe. It's subjective, circumstantial evidence but that doesn't necessarily make it unreasonable to believe in or uncompelling.
Actually, it does.

People are sent to the chair based on eye-witness testimony.
The highest cause of death for people on the US' death row is old age, owing to the delays caused by new visits of the evidence. No one is sent to the chair based on eye-witness testimony alone (and if they are, it's a terrible miscarriage of justice).

Nonetheless, it's peculiar that you would believe in something you freely admit is untestable and unsubstantiated. In your original post, your reasons for believing are little more than personal incredulity - "I don't understand/can't believe how natural processes, chaos theory, etc, could do X, therefore, God must have done X".

Being a particle physicist, that sounds like a fun debate

That presumes that QM interactions are non-physical, yet they're not. Quantum particles exist over all spacetime by virtue of their wavefunction, which is heavily condensed at the point where the particle 'is'. Entangled particles are entangled only insofar as one cannot describe the wavefunction of one without reference to the wavefunction of the other.
 
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nebulaJP

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I'm not following you. Is this your personal view or is it commonly accepted; is what you are saying in this article? If so please copy and paste that section. If it's not in that article then please post a different article that supports what you are saying so I can read more about it.

Also, do you subscribe to any of these interpretations of QM?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I'm not following you. Is this your personal view or is it commonly accepted;
It's the commonly accepted view (source).

is what you are saying in this article? If so please copy and paste that section.
It's in the opening line:

"Quantum entanglement occurs when particles such as photons, electrons, molecules as large as buckyballs, and even small diamonds interact physically and then become separated; the type of interaction is such that each resulting member of a pair is properly described by the same quantum mechanical description (state), which is indefinite in terms of important factors such as position, momentum, spin, polarization, etc."

Which is the same as what I said: particles are entangled inasmuch as one cannot be described without reference to the other. This section correctly describes a more mathematical demonstration of the effect.

If it's not in that article then please post a different article that supports what you are saying so I can read more about it.
I recommend the Feynmann lectures. Prof. Susskind's lectures are also well worth watching:

Lecture 1 | Quantum Entanglements, Part 1 (Stanford) - YouTube

Also, do you subscribe to any of these interpretations of QM?
I dally between the Copenhagen and objective collapse interpretations. Collapse occurs, resulting state is epistemologically random, the mathematical and ontologically non-real wavefunction corresponds to an physical and ontologically real distribution, etc.
 
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Paradoxum

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I don't claim that materialism is necessarily true, but I also don't stick strongly to any alternative theory. If you make stuff up like that it seems likely that you will get it wrong. To me it just sounds like you are making stuff up, but what do you mean by a spirit world for QM?

So there is that. I also believe in life beyond death. I guess what convinces me most is Near Death Experience research. A lot of people have a different interpretation of this data but I find it compelling evidence.

They could easily be explained by the brain dying or waking up. There is no need to make up magical other worlds. But I would be happy to hear why you disagree.


Well if mean God is just consciousness then God does exist, but that isn't what most people mean by God. It sounds like you are unnecessarily making up definitions. If you are going to say God is consciousness, then why not just use the word consciousness?

Why use the word God at all?

If you mean that God is more than the things we experience then obviously they can't be evidence for God because they could exist without God.


Well consciousness didn't evolve until recently, so what was it that existed before then? Matter.

So the following three things don't have to be related but for me they are. So that's why I brought up 1 & 2.

1. the non-physical is real based on QM.

Why does that mean there is something non-physical? QM is physical so any connection to it is probably also physical.

2. there is life beyond death based on NDEs.

Which sounds a bit like saying there must be a God because what else explains lightning and the movement of the planets. It's based on ignorance and bias.

But again, if you can argue why NDE are more than the brain then go ahead.


So what you mean is that you have no reason to believe in God, it just makes you feel good?


Eye-witness testimony is known to be unreliable.

Just because someone says they saw a dragon doesn't mean dragons are real. They could have unknowingly have eaten a drug or chemical. They could be mistaken. They could be dreaming. They could be in sleep paralysis. They could have a mental problem.

Considering there could be psychological reasons for it, it is silly to just believe them. So yes, it is unreasonable for you think think aliens have visited people. There is no evidence for it. Just people with their weird human and fallible minds.

Yeah, I have assumed that because materialism cannot adequately explain how random processes create phenomena such as life and awareness, it means there must be a God behind it.

Materialism can probably explain life, but I agree it might not be able to awareness. That doesn't mean there is a God behind it though.


Then you have no reason to believe in God. You don't have to argue against atheism, you just have to give good reasons why to believe. If there are no good reasons, there is no reason to believe in God.


I don't know, and I can be ok with my ignorance. Making stuff up is good for deluding oneself.

What you say doesn't go against materialism, it just poses a problem. Gravity could have been questioned like that in the past. How could the Earth attract the Moon when they don't touch? There is no material touching so materialism must be wrong. But then of course Einstein solved that problem. Perhaps the change in entanglement is somehow material, but we don't know how yet.

The past should teach us not to jump to fill the gaps with highly speculative theories.


It doesn't prove anything any more than gravity in the past would have proven materialism incorrect.

It isn't 'god of the gaps' to say not to jump to conclusions. I'm not claiming knowledge. Science has worked out stuff like this in the past, so we should give it time to see if it will again. We don't have to take a firm position about things we don't know.
 
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nebulaJP

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The sentence that I have highlighted in red is what I am having a hard time understanding. If quantum particles exist over all space-time by virtue of their wavefunction, then why do we see a distinct interference pattern in the double slit experiment with the highest number of hits in the center and the least number of hits at the outer edges of the pattern? I mean, in the wave function, there is a certain probability that a particle will be at a certain location isn't there? I have never heard "quantum particles exist over all space-time" before. Do they exist over all space time equally, so that no particle is more probable to be at one place in the universe than any other place? How can any particle ever "become separated" from another, as it says in the opening line of the Wiki article, if each particle exists over all space-time? I don't get it.

Edit: OK some of my questions in here about about the probability of a given location are answered by your phrase "heavily condensed at the point where the particle is." I still have this question, what is the evidence that "quantum particles exist over ALL space-time?"
 
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AlexBP

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I was born into a household where my father was strongly atheistic, while my mother was non-religious during my childhood. I grew up being quite certain that my lack of religious beliefs and left-wing politics made me a member of a select elite, very much better than almost everyone else. I went to a college and encountered many other like-thinking members of the educational elite. After spending four years surrounded by them, I was starting to think that perhaps they weren't so much better than everyone else after all. Then I went to graduate school, and after a couple years of that I was starting to get a very strong impression that the people I had trusted for so long didn't actually know anything about what was truly important in life. Around that time I was beginning to encounter some Christians in my personal life, and I noted there was a great deal admirable about what they said and did. I started reading some books by Christian authors, though at this point I was still certain that Christian doctrine was bunk. Soon the intellectual arguments in those books convinced me otherwise and I started to believe to think of myself as a Christian, but fitted my beliefs more with a universalist slant than what most people would consider Christian. Then I read the gospels for the first time and became convinced that Jesus Christ actually was God's son. Lastly the Holy Spirit became active in my life and convinced me of personal salvation through Jesus Christ.

So to summarize, my reasons for belief are: 1) Testimony of others. 2) Intellectual reasons. 3) Gospel message. 4) Experience of salvation.
 
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nebulaJP

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To me it just sounds like you are making stuff up, but what do you mean by a spirit world for QM?

In the paragraph you quoted there is a link to an article, in which Brian Whitworth talks about a "non-physical quantum reality." I mean that.
 
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FrenchyBearpaw

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Welcome to the bright side!

 
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Wiccan_Child

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Correct .

I still have this question, what is the evidence that "quantum particles exist over ALL space-time?"
It follows from the fundamental postulates of quantum mechanics (namely, the assignment of a wavefunction to each particle that evolves over time according to the Schrödinger equations, and which assign a probability to every point in space). Thus, any evidence for QM is evidence for this conclusion. GR postulates that the speed of light is constant for all inertial frames, which leads to various testable conclusions, and evidence for the latter circles back and constitutes evidence for the former.
 
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AlexBP

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How do you assess another person's experience at all? How do you define evidence?
 
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directorrico

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Thanks for those who are replying to the QM deal here as it gets a bit too hectic for me from that point on.
What I see here are your own conclusions that God exists for no reasonable proof whatsoever and you seem to be acknowledging that. Why bother?
 
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directorrico

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Thank you for the reply.

I'm glad that you have found meaning in the good values people have shared to you. As many are discussing in this very thread, testimony is just not reliable on the account of truth. Of course, in particular cases, it is. But remember: extraordinary claims means the need for extraordinary evidence. Because people who were in your life were not God-followers, and perhaps doing worse things than the Christians that you were to later meet, that does not justify the lifestyle or claims of either camp. It seems that the only reason you did join was because it fit your personal beliefs. And then further knew Jesus was God's son? What convinced you? How do you know that it was not just the feeling of belonging, agreement and safety of the other Christians that you labeled the "Holy Spirit"?
 
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