Why do we judge Michal so harshly?

JimB · Apr 2, 2010

jiminpa said:
*****

But then I thought about it, and realized that if my beliefs can't stand up against purely compulsion driven criticism they can't be very strong beliefs. So maybe it is time to take a look at your view that Michal is just a misunderstood heroin and David's abandon in worshiping God was wrong, (did I get that right?).

When I look at the scripture I see that David was in fact dancing before the Lord and that scriptural narrative mentions nothing about him showing anything to anyone, or being concerned with anything but the return of the Ark of the Covenant. (v.12 -15) That focus on God in worship is consistent with David's character throughout scripture. In verse 16 Michal, and scripture here points out that she is Saul's daughter, sees David's joy and worship before the Lord and despises him in her heart. The next 4 verses are again about David and God and the people, no mention of any wrongdoing on David's part. Then David comes home to bless his house, and is met by Michal, making sarcastic accusations. In verses 21 and 22 David defends himself pointing out that what he did he did before the Lord. Then he gets to the real issue for her, that God chose David above her father, and moves back on to how much he is unconcerned about maintaining dignity when he is before the Lord. v.23--again calls her the daughter of Saul and says that she had no child.

Sorry, but scripture doesn't treat Michal very kindly, and the only one in scripture accusing David of any wrongdoing here is Michal.

It is true, my sympathies are with Michal as much as with David. The Bible nowhere condemns her (although the same cannot be said for David) but, in fact, presents her in all of her appearances in scripture (including 2 Samuel 6), as a woman who was horribly used by the men in her life (all but Palti, that is) and passed around like chattel. That this treatment by her father and husband may have (probably did) create bitterness in her is not excusable but is at least is understandable.

2 Samuel 6 does not condemn David or his dance but neither does it condemn Michal. It simply reports what happened and what was said without commentary. We are left to draw our own conclusions about motives. You choose to see Davids POV, I choose Michals. One view is as scripturally justified as the other when we use the whole Bible as the context and not just the immediate passage. I only presented this thread as an alternate view to the popular accepted one.

This is not to say that I disparage David. Apparently, he was an exuberant sort of guy and everything he did he seemed to do to excess. Sometimes that was good and sometime not. But in the case of 2 Samuel 6, we are left to draw our own conclusions. You have drawn yours; I have drawn mine. Neither could be right but, then again, we both could be right.

Personally, though, I think you have read more into the story than is there. I have highlighted some of the unwarranted adjectives you used (in red above) in presenting the story.

The fact that Michal had no child may very well be an indication that her and David did not live in an intimate husband-wife relationship. It certainly does not say she was cursed with barrenness.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13

Spirit Compass · Apr 2, 2010

JimB said:
Why do we judge Michal so harshly?

Her father, King Saul, was given the title of 'King' because of the nations desire to be like other nations. Saul was a concession to the people's desires, not to the will of the Most High.

Saul wanted a warrior to go out and oppose Goliath of Gath. He offered great riches, his daughter, and freedom for the family of the warrior as a reward. David spoke among Saul's army and asked about the reward. He volunteered to oppose Goliath and was armed by Saul to go out.

After his victory over Goliath, Saul was jealous about David's victory! He chased after David and wanted to kill him. His family was one of jealous opposition and the end result was their horrific death and beheading in another battle.

Michal had the same spirit of opposition and mockery towards David as her father. Her example is one we should not follow.

JimB · Apr 2, 2010

Spirit Compass said:
*****

Michal had the same spirit of opposition and mockery towards David as her father. Her example is one we should not follow.

Wow. That is one giant leap of logic that is nowhere supported by scripture, SC. You seem to be reading more into the scripture than is there. In fact, I think you are reading into scripture what you want to be there. I think there’s a word for this.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13

Svt4Him · Apr 3, 2010

Didn't we already discuss this? OK, at our last meeting, we didn't actually talk about her at all. I know it's rare. Actually the last time we judged her was probably the last time you wrote a thread about her exactly like this. So my question is who exactly is judging her?

JimB · Apr 3, 2010

Svt4Him said:
Didn't we already discuss this? OK, at our last meeting, we didn't actually talk about her at all. I know it's rare. Actually the last time we judged her was probably the last time you wrote a thread about her exactly like this. So my question is who exactly is judging her?

I have never written another thread about Michal (at least that I recall). I think you are remembering this thread which I opened back in February. We talked about it for a week or so, then it went dead for a month and was bumped by Goldenboy earlier this week because he wanted an opportunity to discuss the subject.

We are still free to do that, arent we?

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13

probinson · Apr 3, 2010

JimB said:
I have never written another thread about Michal (at least that I recall).

You have a short memory;
http://www.christianforums.com/t6356955/

http://www.christianforums.com/t4236859/

Now I know you're about to accuse me of hanging on your every word, and feigning flattery over just how much I'm enamored by what you say, but really, I just know how to use Google site search quickly and effectively.

Svt4Him · Apr 3, 2010

Saved me the trouble. Seems no one is judging her, only people judging those who judge her, IMO.

JimB · Apr 3, 2010

probinson said:
You have a short memory;
http://www.christianforums.com/t6356955/

http://www.christianforums.com/t4236859/

Now I know you're about to accuse me of hanging on your every word, and feigning flattery over just how much I'm enamored by what you say, but really, I just know how to use Google site search quickly and effectively.

Not accusing you at all. Thanx for reminding me.

Must be old-timers disease.

Have a happy Easter.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13

Svt4Him · Apr 4, 2010

JimB said:
Not accusing you at all. Thanx for reminding me.

Must be old-timers disease.

Have a happy Easter.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13

Very gracious reply, kudos to you!

Yitzchak · Apr 5, 2010

I have heard sermons preached about this subject.

They say this is the only place in the bible where woman is recorded as loving her husband. It does not say that David loved her back.

1Sa 18:20 And Michal Saul's daughter loved David: and they told Saul, and the thing pleased him.

The word therefore is added in the king James version. It does not appear in the hebrew. That word therefore probably adds to this being used as a sermon text.

2Sa 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

JimB · Apr 5, 2010

Michal was, for David, more of a trophy (see here) and a possession like chattel property (see here), than a wife. Nowhere in David’s relationship with her did he ever treat her fairly, from the beginning to the end, and it does not appear that her love for David (see here) was ever returned.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13

Svt4Him · Apr 5, 2010

Unlike all his other wives. How many again?

jiminpa · Apr 5, 2010

JimB said:
Michal was, for David, more of a trophy (see here) and a possession like chattel property (see here), than a wife. Nowhere in David’s relationship with her did he ever treat her fairly, from the beginning to the end, and it does not appear that her love for David (see here) was ever returned.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13

I am probably going to regret responding to you, but here goes. Absolutely none of your conclusions are in those verses. Hmmm, Saul tried to require a dowry that would get David killed and David paying it somehow makes her a trophy. And what the Bible doesn't mention makes it evidence of a lack of something. Nowhere in the Bible is posting contrary beliefs to the theme of a forum mentioned but you can't honestly say it doesn't happen here.

The fact that Michal is referred to as Saul's daughter in the verses of the OP and in the verses above we see Saul's burning jealousy against David pretty much refutes your conclusion. Michal was Saul's daughter, Biblically in more than just genetics, and she reached the point where it won out when the ark was returned.

How can I challenge you to examine what everyone else plainly sees without being too truthful for the "Christian" Forums COC? Who do you justify in the OP, and who do you condemn? How often does scripture speak well of David, how often does it speak well of Saul's daughter?

Tamara224 · Apr 5, 2010

jiminpa said:
How can I challenge you to examine what everyone else plainly sees without being too truthful for the "Christian" Forums COC?

Hey, don't presume that "everyone else" agrees with your interpretation.

Some of us agree with the OP. I think Michal gets a bad rap. I also think Jimbo gets a bad rap. What is so confounded wrong with challenging people's preconceptions?

Why is this such a hot-button for people? Oh my gosh, it's gotta be the end of the world because someone dared to empathize with Michal!!!!

You'd think he'd was talking about Jezebel the way some people are reacting.

Yitzchak · Apr 6, 2010

jiminpa said:
I am probably going to regret responding to you, but here goes. Absolutely none of your conclusions are in those verses. Hmmm, Saul tried to require a dowry that would get David killed and David paying it somehow makes her a trophy. And what the Bible doesn't mention makes it evidence of a lack of something. Nowhere in the Bible is posting contrary beliefs to the theme of a forum mentioned but you can't honestly say it doesn't happen here.

The fact that Michal is referred to as Saul's daughter in the verses of the OP and in the verses above we see Saul's burning jealousy against David pretty much refutes your conclusion. Michal was Saul's daughter, Biblically in more than just genetics, and she reached the point where it won out when the ark was returned.

How can I challenge you to examine what everyone else plainly sees without being too truthful for the "Christian" Forums COC? Who do you justify in the OP, and who do you condemn? How often does scripture speak well of David, how often does it speak well of Saul's daughter?

I think that the conclusion that Michal was struck barren by God is a legitimate possibility. However , I can also see the other side here.
I like to read the orthodox jewish commentaries because of my backround and almost all of them paint David as the bad guy in this story. There are several passages that pertain to David and Michal's marriage and it does require a bit of reading between the lines. But the fact that David did not try to rescue his wife for ten years and the scene where her husband of ten years follows behind her weeping does not make David look good. It also violated jewish law for David to take her back as his wife after she married someone else. that is found in Deuteronomy. David gives the appearance of wanting his way no matter who else it hurts including Michal.
Add to that the backround of the power struggle over who would be king. David's dowery put him in line legally to be king and so it does add to the possibility that his marriage to Michal was political. That was very common in those days. And his getting back together with Michal can be seen as politiacl too because of the timing and the other things going on.

On the other side, it does appear that Michal had divided loyalties in her crucial hour of decision. She was in the lineage of Saul and her destiny did not look good since Saul's line was destined to be stomped out and not continue. David also was aman after God's heart and God liked the way David worshiped.

I can see both sides.

Yitzchak · Apr 6, 2010

jiminpa said:
Maybe it just gets old when the same people come on the Spirit-Filled/Charismatic forum and disagree seemingly for the sake of it with everything we see the Bible teaching about the gifts of the Spirit. It pains me to see Christians who identify more with a bitter daughter of Saul, who rebukes passionate worship of God because it is not dignified enough for the King of God's nation, and then side with her against the man after God's own heart for doing precisely what earns him that title, and it makes me question the spiritual condition of anyone who is more inclined to sympathize with a daughter of evil than God's man. I've started to lose patience with the accusers of the brethren. It amazes me how anyone can then turn it around as though those of us reading what the Bible actually says are the ones missing the point.

Yes it good to have our beliefs challenged, but when it becomes just stubborn contrariness it wears out pretty quickly.

Maybe it's time for the actual Charismatics and Pentecostals on this forum to stop feeding the trolls.

I love revival and I love the example of King David. For me the emphasis in this story is not so much about worship. That is one theme. But I think the overall theme is the bumpy road that David went through in the transition from Saul being King to David being King. The ark signifies so many signifigant things. There has been a lot of attention to how the tabernacle of David is a type of the last days restoration of worship and the presence of the ark/glory. which is true. But there are other larger themes. One is the establishment of the government of God and has to do with the kingdom of God on earth. The messianic era. This the rabbi's recognise. Which is why when Jesus preached about the Kingdom of God has come to you, the jewish audience knew he was speaking about messiah coming. Along with this theme is the idea of the gentiles being saved....

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

As for people taking up for Michal. I know that the orthodox jewish commetaries have no axe to grind about Pentecostals. Their audience is jewish. It is actually out of the norm for them to take the woman's side.
I think it is good to see different perspectives in these things because sometimes we miss part of what that scripture is teaching if we just focus on the one issue.

I know for jewish women this is one of their passages they turn to for an example that women can indentify with and have empathy with. There are deep seated hurts from centuries of being pawns in the political power struggles of the community. I don't think anyone will be using this passage for a marriage seminar as a good example of how a husband and wife should treat each other.

JimB · Apr 6, 2010

jiminpa said:
I am probably going to regret responding to you, but here goes. Absolutely none of your conclusions are in those verses. Hmmm, Saul tried to require a dowry that would get David killed and David paying it somehow makes her a trophy. And what the Bible doesn't mention makes it evidence of a lack of something. Nowhere in the Bible is posting contrary beliefs to the theme of a forum mentioned but you can't honestly say it doesn't happen here.

The fact that Michal is referred to as Saul's daughter in the verses of the OP and in the verses above we see Saul's burning jealousy against David pretty much refutes your conclusion. Michal was Saul's daughter, Biblically in more than just genetics, and she reached the point where it won out when the ark was returned.

How can I challenge you to examine what everyone else plainly sees without being too truthful for the "Christian" Forums COC? Who do you justify in the OP, and who do you condemn? How often does scripture speak well of David, how often does it speak well of Saul's daughter?

Why would you "regret" discussing scriptures with anybody … unless you are afraid of seeing things through different lenses?

Anyhow, you have touched on the reason for this thread. I agree, I may be reading between the verses of 2 Samuel 6 but then I could say the same thing about the traditional P/C interpretation and say they P/C's also see what one wants to be there and not necessarily what is stated. All we know from 2 Samuel 6 is that when bringing the ark into Jerusalem, David danced with abandon (and practically naked, if we are to believe his wife), that Michal was critical of him and told him so, that David took it personal and responded a bit self-righteously (IMO), and that their marriage suffered from having no children. That’s it.

A reading of the story through a P/C lens would see it as supporting unrestrained dancing at public gatherings (although I do not quite get the part about doing it practically naked—that’s where I think a P/C pastor might draw the line) and in the face of criticism from “outsiders” (although Michal could hardly be called that) and would see in the story a defense of David and a judgment on his critical wife. Such an interpretation would then naturally support a particular style of worship preferred by many P/C’s. But (to quote you), “Absolutely none of those conclusions are in those verses.”

What I am suggesting is that you read 2 Samuel chapter 6 in context with David and Michal’s relationship over the entire story of their lives together, from the preceding 20 or so chapters beginning at 1 Samuel 14, and not simply reading the chapter eisegetically in isolation from all that has gone before it. That takes more time, of course, and requires more effort and study, but ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, not just those favored passages we wrench out of context to support a preferred point of view.

Personally, I do not care if people dance before the Lord (providing they do it with some semblance of rhythm and do not break furniture and knock down elderly people while doing it—you know, decently … and in order ) and there are times when I have found it a perfectly natural thing to do in some service. Me? I move with the music in every service but I would not dare call it dancing (and neither would anyone else who sees me) and I certainly have no objections to anyone who does so ...

... although one Sunday morning I did have to ask a couple who was doing a jitterbug not to do so during worship service—it was very distracting to other worshipers They told me they saw it as an opportunity to practice their dance steps--they were enrolled in a ballroom dancing class. But I was criticized by one person for stopping them and they pulled out this story and said I may have had "the spirit of Michal" for "quencing their spirit."

Sigh.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13

JimB · Apr 6, 2010

Tamara224 said:
*****

Why is this such a hot-button for people? Oh my gosh, it's gotta be the end of the world because someone dared to empathize with Michal!!!!

You'd think he'd was talking about Jezebel the way some people are reacting.

I have been asking the same question, T? Thanks for bringing it up?

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13

Yitzchak · Apr 6, 2010

For the record, I am enjoying this thread. I am of the position that David dancing and Michal's judgment of him led to her barrenness. But I in the 55% one way, 45% against category.
I think it is an area of honest disagreement. Knowing the orthodox jewish persepctive on it is against my position and favors the one offered in this thread, it is difficult for me to say this is sectarian bias. The orthodox jews don't even get along well with other jews , let alone care what Christians say about the passage.
I think to understand the passage it does help to see different angles because I think a passage can have several messages woven into it.

Yitzchak · Apr 6, 2010

I do admit that the main theme or context of the story is about the transition from Saul to David as King. The bringing in of the ark and the Tabernacle of david are seen as messianic foreshadowing by at leats some jewish scholars. The book of Acts seems to confirm this interpretation when it connects the rebuilding of David's Tabernacle with the Gospel going to the Gentiles.

Within this context the issue of David's worship comes up. I hardly think that is co-incidence or something totally unrelated that is just shoved into this story. The rejection of David's worship by the representative from the old regime whose family line used to have the Holy Spirit and then persecuted the new thing God was doing. I think these are legitimate themes to get out of the text. And it is all in the context of the overall theme of establishing the Kingdom of God in the last days.

Why do we judge Michal so harshly?

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